Supercharging - Elon's statement that Daily Supercharging Users are Receiving Notes

[AnxietyRanger]

Do you agree that certain "good" behaviors could delay and potentially avoid limitations, and "bad" behaviors could accelerate their necessity?

I don't think voluntary behaviors regarding frequent local charging would likely make much of a difference. Nor do I think frequent local chargers are a big enough group or a problem anyway. Enforcement could make a difference if it cuts out occasional chargers too (thus really lessening the local burden in volume), but to do that, in my view the contract needs to clearly change (and it can't for existing cars, but can for future) - and, true, that would take away from Tesla Awesomeness. But fear of taking away from Tesla Awesomeness can't allow the contract to change in silence, that wouldn't be right either.

I'm OK for changing the contract for future purchases, e.g. my future Model X included.

I also admit none of us are privy to numbers that would be needed to determine these things accurately - and Tesla is unlikely to tell us, because they have an interest in controlling such information (beyond fiscal responsibilities). We all estimate, of course.

 

[Tedkidd]

I don't think voluntary behaviors regarding frequent local charging would likely make much of a difference. Nor do I think frequent local chargers are a big enough group or a problem anyway.

No way to prove a hypothetical, but I think you are wrong in this. I think good culture can make a huge difference.

Enforcement could make a difference if it cuts out occasional chargers too (thus really lessening the local burden in volume), but to do that, in my view the contract needs to clearly change (and it can't for existing cars, but can for future) - and, true, that would take away from Tesla Awesomeness.

I suspect everyone agrees that this should be very transparent if it happens. Not sure that many feel this should happen at all.

But fear of taking away from Tesla Awesomeness can't allow the contract to change in silence, that wouldn't be right either.

Kinda self-defeating, unless Tesla intentionally decides to tank all good-will and drive it's sat scores down to keep Verizon and Time Warner company.

I'm OK for changing the contract for future purchases, e.g. my future Model X included.

I don't think that will happen. Not for a long time. I hope it doesn't because it's a huge part of what differentiates Tesla now, and is likely to be an even greater differentiator in the future. No way to prove a hypothetical but I think good culture can make a huge difference.

I also admit none of us are privy to numbers that would be needed to determine these things accurately - and Tesla is unlikely to tell us, because they have an interest in controlling such information (beyond fiscal responsibilities). We all estimate, of course.

Do you see Tesla as needing to charge at Superchargers for financial reasons, or for traffic/availability reasons?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I'm not saying good culture can't make a big difference. I think how our society/societies EV culture evolves will certainly play a role in how charging works. Unfortunately I'm also of the opinion enforcement will be a part of the equation, and if so, it needs clear rules. I don't think, if Tesla has an issue with local charging, that culture will yet help there much at this point - nor do I think it is a big issue so far anyway.

I do think Tesla's concern so far is traffic/availability, not energy price. I also I agree I don't expect any changes, beyond the soft messaging they are now IMO doing, at least not in the Model S / X timeframe. Model 3 I don't quite know what to think about yet.

I'm all for a good etiquette conversation too. For me a big problem has been, in this thread it has been sharing space with other conversations that really aren't about etiquette. As a separate thing, I'm all for seeking and advancing great EV culture, great etiquette included.

 

[Tedkidd]

I'm all for a good etiquette conversation too. For me a big problem has been, in this thread it has been sharing space with other conversations that really aren't about etiquette. As a separate thing, I'm all for seeking and advancing great EV culture, great etiquette included.

If it's Tesla Ethics - I think you worry too much they will do something seriously unethical. I think that's a silly worry - the market places huge value premium on Tesla Goodwill - such behavior would have dramatic value ramifications and I think Elon and the other leadership understand this better than you and I.

To the issue of Supercharger demand growth causing wide scale charging delays, and avoidance of removing "free travel" from the plate of benefits:

Seems charging a fee could be part of the solution at busy SC locations. It occurs to me they could have both free stations and pay stations at these locations. Pay stations would discourage "opportunity" charging and help ensure charge availability for "necessity" chargers. I'd gladly pay $1 a minute at a congested Supercharger for the luxury of availability.

Kind of a spin on the battery swap idea.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

If it's Tesla Ethics - I think you worry too much they will do something seriously unethical. I think that's a silly worry - the market places huge value premium on Tesla Goodwill - such behavior would have dramatic value ramifications and I think Elon and the other leadership understand this better than you and I.

To the issue of Supercharger demand growth causing wide scale charging delays, and avoidance of removing "free travel" from the plate of benefits:

Seems charging a fee could be part of the solution at busy SC locations. It occurs to me they could have both free stations and pay stations at these locations. Pay stations would discourage "opportunity" charging and help ensure charge availability for "necessity" chargers. I'd gladly pay $1 a minute at a congested Supercharger for the luxury of availability.

Kind of a spin on the battery swap idea.

On the Tesla Ethics part, I guess we agree it isn't an issue so far for Superchargers, but we have to agree to disagree on it being a legitimate worry. I think it is a legitimate worry, as changes e.g. in Tesla's ranger service has portrayed. Tesla is trying to find their way, makes some quite ambitious promises at times, and I don't think it is a completely unreasonable worry that they might sometimes overstep in changing those later - and if so, a "polite but firm" (to quote Elon) note to Tesla from the public, in public may be in order.

Nice ideas otherwise in your message. I agree at some point these issues must be considered, because even long-distance charging alone will become an issue eventually as the number of Teslas multiplies (e.g. Model 3).

 

[brianman]

Seems charging a fee could be part of the solution at busy SC locations. It occurs to me they could have both free stations and pay stations at these locations. Pay stations would discourage "opportunity" charging and help ensure charge availability for "necessity" chargers. I'd gladly pay $1 a minute at a congested Supercharger for the luxury of availability.

Kind of a spin on the battery swap idea.

Good proposal.

 

[4SUPER9]

Seems charging a fee could be part of the solution at busy SC locations. It occurs to me they could have both free stations and pay stations at these locations. Pay stations would discourage "opportunity" charging and help ensure charge availability for "necessity" chargers. I'd gladly pay $1 a minute at a congested Supercharger for the luxury of availability.

Kind of a spin on the battery swap idea.

Hmmm. I'm not sure. Then it becomes an issue of who gets there first. If a local gets there first and takes up a free spot, a traveler is stuck with paying the fee at the charged spots.

 

[cpa]

Hmmm. I'm not sure. Then it becomes an issue of who gets there first. If a local gets there first and takes up a free spot, a traveler is stuck with paying the fee at the charged spots.

I am sure that they could develop software to restrict the "locals" to the fee stations; i.e., stations 7A and 7B would be available for this fee when a local plugged in. Stations 1-6A&B would not work for the locals. Similarly, travelers would NOT be able to charge at 7A&7B either.

Since the Supercharger locations now have current status (see Harris Ranch and Corsicana) on the touchscreen, it would seem to me to be a fairly easy programming enhancement to indicate which Superchargers are available for each auto at each location. A local would see on his touchscreen stalls 7A/B, while a traveler would see stalls 1A through 6B.

 

[4SUPER9]

I am sure that they could develop software to restrict the "locals" to the fee stations; i.e., stations 7A and 7B would be available for this fee when a local plugged in. Stations 1-6A&B would not work for the locals. Similarly, travelers would NOT be able to charge at 7A&7B either.

Sounds doable, and also extremely complicated. Given that it seems that such a minor minority of people abuse the SCs, I don't see the point. By the time there are such vast amounts of Tesla's using these to really worry about it, our paradigm may shift in other directions.

 

[FlasherZ]

Since the Supercharger locations now have current status (see Harris Ranch and Corsicana) on the touchscreen, it would seem to me to be a fairly easy programming enhancement to indicate which Superchargers are available for each auto at each location. A local would see on his touchscreen stalls 7A/B, while a traveler would see stalls 1A through 6B.

Is there a pic of this? Sounds cool, but we peasants outside California don't have that yet.

 

[BoerumHill]

Sorry if has already been posted, but I like the long post at Tesla Owner blog on this subject. In his closing he noted perhaps Tesla should have issued a statement along these lines:

"Charging at home is very convenient, inexpensive, and easy. Superchargers are free forever for road trips. If you have problems charging regularly at home or work, feel free to charge at a convenient supercharger, but please be considerate of other drivers."

Elon often (like most CEOs) makes statements that require further explanation or clarification or deftly spun reiteration. People are quoting his extemporaneous remarks in the shareholders Q&A chapter & verse, as if it's the canonized gospel. Nobody is that perfect, and I think some leeway should be granted to allow for nuance.

Many have noted apartment or condo dwellers without a home charging option have to be an exception to the rule. His remarks did not address that. I think the blog quote above is reasonable and most if not all in this thread are inclined to agree.

 

[hbouw]

Whatever Tesla does, I think they better tread carefully. I'm not sure if somebody linked to this already but AT&T just got hit by a $100M fine for not informing users they would "throttle" their data speeds after hitting a certain data volume within a period. This means that some of the ideas that were offered earlier in this thread may not fly if implemented on the entire population. For example the idea for Tesla to slow down the charging speed to a trickle, in case somebody reaches a certain amount of kWh charged within a certain period.

AT&T $100M fine for "throttling" unlimited data plans

To make sure: I firmly belong to the camp that believes Tesla has every right to send a note to daily supercharger users that are abusing the system. However, looking further ahead, I also believe that Tesla may have maneuvered themselves into a somewhat precarious position with limited options to "set things right" going forward. Whatever they do, they will have to make sure promises made to the current population of owners (however which way these promises are to be interpreted), do not get affected by their actions.

 

[bonnie]

If someone just read this thread & didn't listen to what Elon actually said, I'm afraid they'd walk away with a completely different impression of reality.

Just a reminder:

Now, there are a few people who are quite aggressively using it for local Supercharging, and we will sort of send them just a reminder note that it’s cool to do this occasionally, but it’s meant to be a long-distance thing.

That's it.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Whatever Tesla does, I think they better tread carefully. I'm not sure if somebody linked to this already but AT&T just got hit by a $100M fine for not informing users they would "throttle" their data speeds after hitting a certain data volume within a period. This means that some of the ideas that were offered earlier in this thread may not fly if implemented on the entire population. For example the idea for Tesla to slow down the charging speed to a trickle, in case somebody reaches a certain amount of kWh charged within a certain period.

AT&T $100M fine for "throttling" unlimited data plans

To make sure: I firmly belong to the camp that believes Tesla has every right to send a note to daily supercharger users that are abusing the system. However, looking further ahead, I also believe that Tesla may have maneuvered themselves into a somewhat precarious position with limited options to "set things right" going forward. Whatever they do, they will have to make sure promises made to the current population of owners (however which way these promises are to be interpreted), do not get affected by their actions.

Great post, I feel the conversation is finally moving along. I agree with all of this.

- - - Updated - - -

I also think this here would be a good suggestion for the future, however it could only be enforced on new customers going forward from such publication, rather than the existing ones:

Sorry if has already been posted, but I like the long post at Tesla Owner blog on this subject. In his closing he noted perhaps Tesla should have issued a statement along these lines:

"Charging at home is very convenient, inexpensive, and easy. Superchargers are free forever for road trips. If you have problems charging regularly at home or work, feel free to charge at a convenient supercharger, but please be considerate of other drivers."

Elon often (like most CEOs) makes statements that require further explanation or clarification or deftly spun reiteration. People are quoting his extemporaneous remarks in the shareholders Q&A chapter & verse, as if it's the canonized gospel. Nobody is that perfect, and I think some leeway should be granted to allow for nuance.

Many have noted apartment or condo dwellers without a home charging option have to be an exception to the rule. His remarks did not address that. I think the blog quote above is reasonable and most if not all in this thread are inclined to agree.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

If someone just read this thread & didn't listen to what Elon actually said, I'm afraid they'd walk away with a completely different impression of reality.

Just a reminder:

Now, there are a few people who are quite aggressively using it for local Supercharging, and we will sort of send them just a reminder note that it’s cool to do this occasionally, but it’s meant to be a long-distance thing.

That's it.

I agree it is a good thing to go back to what Tesla / Elon actually said, since this conversation has evolved into what the community thinks and wants (in a diverse manner), instead of what Tesla may or may not actually be promoting, let alone doing. Some of what are living on as quotes are actually interpretations of the TMC community. The thread itself long ago evolved into a charging etiquette conversation, instead of interpretation of Tesla's rules for Supercharging.

I took a moment to transcribe it, hope this helps. The full quote is bolded below and in context - starting at 01:09 of 2015 Shareholder Meeting | Tesla Motors - I hope the below is quite accurate, but feel free to offer any corrections, Elon is a bit hard to read at times.

Q: "Keith Lamberts, shareholder, on the announcement of the PowerWall there was a mention about the zero-emission vehicle credits and the question was unanswered. And it relates to the swap down in Harris Ranch and the ability to make an appointment or get a phone number to make the appointment, so you can do the swap. And as far as the expansion of the Superchargers, what is the lifetime of free charging per vehicle - and what is it accounting for when you sell a car?"

A: (Elon Musk) "So, yeah, we have basically the LA-San Francisco pack swap capability in place. And - we've - all Model S in the sort of, you know, California area, has been invited at this point to try it out. And what we're seen is just a very low take rate for the, for the pack swap station, so we did an initial rounding of invitations... and we did basically like 200 invitations and I think there we're a total of 4 or 5 people that wanted to do that. And they all did it just once.

So, like, okay, its clearly not very popular. And then we're like, let's expand that invitation to all customers and... but I would expect that, that initial sample group, that all customers roughly behave like that initial sample group, it is just... people don't care about pack swap. The Superchargers are fast enough that if you do... you're driving from LA to San Francisco, you start the trip at 9 am by the time you get to say noon, you want to stop and you want to, you know, stretch legs, hit the restroom, grab a bit to eat, grab a coffee and be on your way. By that time the car is charged and ready to go. And it's free. So it is like, why would you do pack swap, it doesn't make much sense.

But we built the pack swap for the car because we weren't sure if people would want to choose the pack swap or not. We thought people would prefer Supercharging, but we weren't sure and so that's why we built the pack swap capability and... and, you know, basically what we're seeing here is it is unlikely to be something that is worth expanding in the future unless something changes.

For the Superchargers, as we said in the initial press release, the Superchargers are free... it is basically free long-distance for life, forever. So, free-long... forever... is what the Superchargers are providing. And there are a few people who are, like, quite aggressively using it for local Supercharging, and we're also sort of just send them a reminder note that it's cool to do this occasionally, but it's not... it is meant to be a long-distance thing. But it is free long-distance forever. And it is basically built into the cost of the car. And based on what we're seeing in terms of the economics, it looks like quite supportable.

And of course we've gone super fast with the Superchargers so the... most of the Superchargers do not yet have solar and a battery back-up, but over time we're gonna put solar over every Supercharger where that, where it is possible to do so - and if it is not possible to do so, to make sure we are purchasing power that is generated in a renewable manner, so the entire Supercharger network is powered by sunlight."

 

[AlMc]

AR: I respect your passion but seldom agree with your opinions or the appearance to this poster that you always have to get in the last word.

To All: I can't recall (it was about two Tylenols ago) that the dead horse was applied to this thread. I do not need to get the last word (and rarely do in my own household) but how about we don't all just let this be the last post?

Peace

 

[AnxietyRanger]

AR: I respect your passion but seldom agree with your opinions or the appearance to this poster that you always have to get in the last word.

To All: I can't recall (it was about two Tylenols ago) that the dead horse was applied to this thread. I do not need to get the last word (and rarely do in my own household) but how about we don't all just let this be the last post?

Peace

Whilst I too would rather move the conversation away from posters and into the topic, I think your views of my opinions may affect your perception of my style. I'd say quite a few others want the last word in this but since you agree with them maybe you don't see it.

I'd rather end with understanding of agreements and disagreements. I'm not looking to win anything.

I am biased about myself, of course. As is anyone.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

AR: I respect your passion but seldom agree with your opinions or the appearance to this poster that you always have to get in the last word.

Whew! I thought you were talking about me! lol

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Even though I love the communal banter in a way, for peace and prosperity I'll offer a deal, let's talk about the issues more and less about the me and vice-versa. Better for everyone. I'll try to do my best to reciprocate.

 

[callmesam]

Is there a conditions of use specifying local charging is not allowed for Supercharging? Anyone have a quote?

In answer to your query, NO!

In fact the opposite is true. There are only two explicit mentions of local charging:

1. Elon Musk 2014 stated that locals were encouraged to charge in cities where they didn't have fixed parking.

2. Elon Musk 2015 stated that "occasional local charging" was cool.

Does occasional mean once a year, month or week? :wink:

The people commenting that they understand Elon Musk and Tesla Motors intent about "not cool" have taken his call for courtesy from local owners to mean something more.

FTC fines of $100M+ for ATT show why "free forever" still mean just that.

Tesla is not changing that for current owners and would be smart NEVER to change the model even for Model 3.

Spend $100M on free HPWCs for everyone would be a better use of money than to charge for charging.

Better off investing in infrastructure that will reduce your long term energy costs i.e. batteries and solar panels.

Increase the price to account for "freeloaders" and continue to assume that 90%+ will continue to charge at home because it's simpler, easier and faster. This would allow TSLA becoming the largest and most profitable automaker of all time and the perhaps the most valuable company in the world.