Tasmanian Fast / Ultra Fast chargers

[Chuq]

I just wrote this in response to a Facebook post about combined kWh/minute charging. I spent so long writing it that I feel the need to copy and paste it in a few relevant places, to make me feel better about the time I wasted

(This is a direct copy and paste, so some of the info will be duplicated from previous posts in this thread)

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Many people have used the sites in Tasmania as an example of sites that have a split energy and time component. The EHT team are active AEVA members so they answer a lot of these questions at our meetings. So whether you like it or not, I get to share that with you now

They see it as paying for two things - the kWh rate is for the electricity you get, and the minute rate is for renting the machine.

They have said this is by design to ensure availability. Most of their locations are in smaller towns and remote locations (i.e. the more seasonal tourist-focused locations) where a blocked or unavailable site can majorly impact a trip. The price structure effectively eliminates sitting on a charger past 100% and and minimises sitting on a charger past 80-90% unless absolutely necessary.

They've also said that they consider a "busy" site to be one that gets 4 hours of usage per day, or where queueing occurs more than 1 in 20 sessions. Their rates are set such that that level of usage provides enough revenue to expand the site. (If it didn't, either queuing would get worse and they couldn't afford to expand - or expanding the site would cause them to lose money at a faster rate because it wasn't self sufficient)

And if someone has money to burn and doesn't care - that's great, the cost they pay contributes to future expansion.

Each of their sites also has an AC charger with the same kWh rate, but a much lower time component (i.e. 3c/min instead of 25c/min) so if your charge rate has tapered to below 11 kW, but you still want to keep charging, you can move to the AC charger and get the same for less.

Since the initial sites were built, they've done a few things:
- They dropped the per minute cost for off peak times from 25c/min to 15c/min. Peak time being 9am-6pm, off-peak being the rest. Presumably congestion is less of an issue at those times.
- They are installing additional 25 kW DC chargers at midway points between the existing sites. As well as providing a backup, they provide an alternative option so that shorter range cars don't have to charge all the way to 100%. In fact the per minute rates for these are lower (15c/min peak and 10c/min off-peak) so it's probably more advantageous to use these if your EV starts tapering early.
- Finally, at the most recent AEVA meeting they confirmed they plan to upgrade 3 of their original sites this year. Two will get new hardware (we are guessing Kempower, since it's designed for multi-stall sites and they are installing Kempower gear at other spots) and the old Tritium units will be redeployed as second units to other locations.

 

[moa999]

Informative post.

Evie also used to have a similar structure until 2019, and as did ChargeNetNZ until recently (they swapped to flat rate plus idle fees)

ChargeNet announces changes to its pricing structure - ChargeNet

We’ve announced changes to the ChargeNet pricing structure. From Wednesday, 30 November 2022, we’re implementing a three-tiered tariff structure based primarily on charge point speed and energy consumption.

charge.net.nz

The arguments against it seem to be
1. Penalising lower charging speed cars (eg. Leaf and even Mitsubishi PHEV)
2. Too complex to understand
3. Penalises the user if the station is operating on reduced output

1. I think is a poor argument. Not the charging operators fault that you have a slower charging car, and it is depriving them of the chance to earn more revenue.

2. I think is a harder argument, but I'd think easily overcome by a sticker showing
Charging speed (in kW), and effective cost (in $/kWh). Makes it easy to compare to other flat rate chargers, and gives a pretty clear message about the disincentive to stay after the rate starts ramping down.

3. Guess this encourages the operator to keep the machine in working order, or people will avoid it.

 

[Vostok]

The arguments against it seem to be
1. Penalising lower charging speed cars (eg. Leaf and even Mitsubishi PHEV)
2. Too complex to understand
3. Penalises the user if the station is operating on reduced output

My thought bubble is to have a per-minute charge in addition to per kWh charge once SOC goes above 80%. Or maybe 90%. Charging to high SOC really kills site throughput and not only impacts other drivers who might be waiting, it is also financially dilutive for the operator ($/hr decrease for them as the vehicle charge rate decreases).

That would hopefully stop people charging to 90-100% unless they really, really needed to - in which case they probably will pay it - while the extra revenue helps fund site expansion.

 

[Chuq]

2. I think is a harder argument, but I'd think easily overcome by a sticker showing
Charging speed (in kW), and effective cost (in $/kWh). Makes it easy to compare to other flat rate chargers, and gives a pretty clear message about the disincentive to stay after the rate starts ramping down.

I believe all the stations have the cost clearly labelled. But I don't think understanding it is even necessary. I just plug in, charge, come back and unplug, and my email tells me I've been billed $8 or $12 or $15 or whatever. I'm not calculating costs un front to see if a 15 minute charge at 45 kW is worth my time or not, or deciding when to unplug based on me only wanting to "put ten bucks worth in" or anything like that.

The only problem would be if there was a predatory company who had an intentionally complicated structure. But to someone who hasn't got their first EV yet, "xx cents per kWh" is also confusing as they have no frame of reference as to what this means compared to petrol.

 

[cafz]

2. Too complex to understand

I agree on this point. It's just like retail demand tariffs for electricity - it might be the most economically cost-reflective, but if it's too complex for consumers in general to internalise then it won't actually affect people's behaviour in the way you want.

Rather than a per-kWh and per-minute rate, I'd suggest a per-kWh rate with a per-minute floor. That's easier to figure out: you pay this much per kWh unless your charge rate falls below X kW, in which case you pay this much per minute. The floor price would be higher for higher speed chargers, and would be set to recover enough to pay for site expansion at their high usage estimate.

 

[Hairyman]

I agree on this point. It's just like retail demand tariffs for electricity - it might be the most economically cost-reflective, but if it's too complex for consumers in general to internalise then it won't actually affect people's behaviour in the way you want.

Rather than a per-kWh and per-minute rate, I'd suggest a per-kWh rate with a per-minute floor. That's easier to figure out: you pay this much per kWh unless your charge rate falls below X kW, in which case you pay this much per minute. The floor price would be higher for higher speed chargers, and would be set to recover enough to pay for site expansion at their high usage estimate.

A bit like taxi waiting time. I like it as an idea.

 

[Vostok]

It's just like retail demand tariffs for electricity - it might be the most economically cost-reflective, but if it's too complex for consumers in general to internalise then it won't actually affect people's behaviour in the way you want.

I don’t know if it‘s that difficult to understand. Evie dropped their per-minute charges (in additional to per kWh charges) pretty early on because people didn’t like it. People must have understood it in order to not like it.

Taxis have had per-km and per-minute charges since forever, people get it.

I think the challenge here is what is the best way to charge for stall occupancy that is “fair”, e.g. not unduly penalising people who bought EVs with slower charging rates or smaller batteries where the need to charge to 90%+ is probably greater. But it also needs to achieve the aim of improving stall turnover while balancing the needs of the individual against the needs of the group.

I think we all agree a per-minute rate is required to do that. The question is what are the triggers.

 

[Chuq]

A bit like taxi waiting time. I like it as an idea.

That's a good comparison, looking at my post above. I don't know or care the exact formula used. I just know approximately what to expect a taxi from the CBD to my house costs. Whether it's an ongoing time/distance rate, or time only when travelling less than a certain speed etc. is of no relevance to me!

 

[cafz]

Taxis have had per-km and per-minute charges since forever, people get it.

Taxis where I've used them have worked like I described above, where the per-minute charges only apply during the part of the journey they're greater than the per-km charge (so you pay per-minute if you're crawling along or stopped at lights, put per-km when you're travelling at speed). I like that for chargers, too.

 

[Vostok]

Taxis where I've used them have worked like I described above, where the per-minute charges only apply during the part of the journey they're greater than the per-km charge (so you pay per-minute if you're crawling along or stopped at lights, put per-km when you're travelling at speed). I like that for chargers, too.

If we want “simplicity” though, that one would be hard to communicate, because the point at which per-minute becomes more expensive than per-kWh would be different for different car models and years (and even chargers).

Let’s assume the per-kWh and per-minute rate are the same and whichever results in a higher cost to the user at any point of time prevails. Then here’s the SoC at which the per-minute charge would kick in, based on charging curves published in InsideEVs and ABRP forum:

• Model S 85 - 65%
• Model 3 SR - 68%
• Model 3 P - 72%
• Model 3 LR - 78%
• Model S 100 - 81%

Note these can also vary based on the year of manufacture and the generation of SC it is plugged into! So users would have very little idea as to when it would switch over. Which from a UX perspective is terrible. And if for whatever reason the charge rate of the station is slow (stall sharing, dynamic power connection, or other reason), then per-minute could kick-in earlier!

I think going to per-minute after a specific SoC is reached is simpler and puts the user in control. The user can set their SoC to avoid it, or control how much extra they pay by counting the minutes after they are notified they reached 80%. Based on the above, 80% would be an appropriate threshold for Tesla at a supercharger.

 

[cafz]

If we want “simplicity” though, that one would be hard to communicate, because the point at which per-minute becomes more expensive than per-kWh would be different for different car models and years (and even chargers).

The SoC changes, but the kW point is the same. Cars can display both - or at least Teslas do.

I think going to per-minute after a specific SoC is reached is simpler and puts the user in control. The user can set their SoC to avoid it, or control how much extra they pay by counting the minutes after they are notified they reached 80%. Based on the above, 80% would be an appropriate threshold for Tesla at a supercharger.

It doesn't reflect the cost of occupying the charger while charging slowly, though - precisely because it does vary so much between cars.

 

[Chuq]

Recent sightings and updates:

Groundworks stated at Bicheno (unit being installed by a new company, Electrona - received funding for this solitary site in the state government ChargeSmart grants.) Presumably a single 50 kW unit but yet to be confirmed.

More progress at EHT's site at Kingston (likely to be their first ARENA funded site to go live).

Given the wording of the ARENA requirements (2x 50 kW simultaneously) and the known capabilities of the Kempower hardware, this is likely to be a 100+ kW site that will split to 2x 50 kW if two cars are in use. Note each stall has Chademo and CCS2, so 2x CCS2 is possible.

Groundworks at EHT's Sandy Bay site. Another ARENA site, expected config to be the same as Kingston above. This one is at Wrest Point Casino, in a car park off to the side which is generally only accessed by overnight guests and has allocated parking, so unlikely to get ICE'd.

Groundworks at EHT's Cygnet site. This will be another ABB 24 kW DC site, similar to others mentioned in previous posts. State government ChargeSmart supported.

The day I was there, the town was incredibly busy (including this car park) - market day. I'm guessing this one will have a high chance of being ICE'd.

Also - as well as the fast chargers, the ChargeSmart grants also include some destination charger funding. Mostly fairly standard and not too exciting, but I thought this one at Zeehan was worth sharing!

 

[leonk]

Also - as well as the fast chargers, the ChargeSmart grants also include some destination charger funding. Mostly fairly standard and not too exciting, but I thought this one at Zeehan was worth sharing!

View attachment 910611

Ok, that might just be my new favorite. What's the bet an oldie has already tried to make a call on it!

 

[Chuq]

Ok, that might just be my new favorite. What's the bet an oldie has already tried to make a call on it!

Hahha.. not sure. It appears to be within the bush camp grounds so probably not something that randoms would come across. No street view imagery to locate it. No idea how they got ahold of the box - presumably it happened a long time ago!

 

[Chuq]

Time for a regular update!

EHT site at Oatlands now has 7m cables instead of 5m cables, and has finished it's introductory free trial. The longer cables were a requirement as the council wanted drive-forward parking only (one way, aisle, angle parking). Although it's an 80 kW site, prices are the same as EHT's 50 kW sites (with the kWh/min mix), presumably because the 80 kW is shared so not guaranteed. I used it on Sunday night and it cost me 21.90kWh @ $0.25/kWh & 25mins @ $0.15/min = $9.22, an effective rate of 42c/kWh.

(pic shows old/short cables)

EHT site at Dunalley - no change since December.

EHT sites at Sandy Bay (Kempower, 100 kW shared over two stalls) and Cygnet (ABB, 24 kW) as mentioned in previous updates are now live.

Sandy Bay is in a great spot - it's in the Wrest Point guest car park, and all spaces are numbered and assigned to rooms, so it's not "general" parking - but you can still drive in there.

Cygnet is in a location where it will get ICE'd on busy days, I think.

EHT site at Kingston (Kempower, 100 kW shared over two stalls) is well progressed and doesn't look far off being live.

EnergyROI site at George Town (Tritium RTM75, 50 kW) is now live.

Electrona (new company) site at Bicheno has had hardware installed. It is a 50 kW CirControl unit with an AC output as well, and will permit both AC and DC to be used at once. It will unfortunately be on the NextCharge network, the only site in the state to do so, but fortunately will also access credit card payment.

EHT site at Smithton has commenced construction (groundworks). I think this will be a 50 kW.

(not much to see in the pic!)

EHT are planning to upgrade/expand sites at Devonport, Burnie and Swansea. At the moment each of these has the original config of 1x Tritium 50 kW and 1x AC charger. From what I can work out, the expansions will be alternatively either replacing the single Tritium unit with multi-stall Kempower setups; or adding a second Tritium unit.

I charged at Devonport on Friday and this sticker was on the unit. As an aside... it cost me 41.80kWh @ $0.25/kWh & 57mins @ $0.15/min = $19.00. An effective cost of 45.5c/kWh. If I had've charged at peak time (before 6pm) it would have been an effective rate of 59c/kWh.

The map now looks like this - sites with updates circled!

 

[Chuq]

As soon as I make the post above, they provide this update regarding Dunalley. Not far away...

 

[leonk]

The Examiner reporting on the new Fingal charger today.

New electric vehicle charging station going up in Fingal

Second charging station being added to Break O'Day municipality.

www.examiner.com.au

 

[Chuq]

Ha.. The Examiner's a bit slow. Pic was 5 days old when they published it and site had already been live for 4 days

Another 25 kW "in between" the other sites.

Here it is after going live:

Other updates.. Bicheno is now live. There was a news story that did the rounds about it being the first site to accept credit card tap payments... a line that was repeated without fact checking by many outlets because it's certainly not the first!

(No idea why the cables are facing the back...)

Only other site of interest since the last update is the EHT Kingston site.. has had the ground painted, but is not live yet!

Still no action at Dunalley.. apparently it's working but not officially.. certainly not on the Chargefox app!


Map of these locations:

 

[Chuq]

Update since the last one!

Dunalley is live! Up and going at 60 kW, for now (power will be increased a small amount after they fix some supply issues)

Sheffield is another new 25 kW site that is now up and going. This site used to have 2x AC chargers... which were in a locked enclosure.. which needed a key from the nearby Tourist Info Centre... which was only open limited hours... and needed a $50 deposit. As you can guess, the new arrangement is much better.

(How it used to look

EHT at Kingston still looks the same as the last update.

EHT at Glenorchy (northern suburbs of Hobart) has been mostly built, and appears to be awaiting activation. More Kempower!

In the north-west, the unit has been installed at Smithton. Many of you will be surprised to see a Tritium RT50. This (I think) was the spare unit that EHT purchased when they installed their first six sites back in 2020. The spare was to allow for a 24 hour replacement in case of a fault. As it happens, EHT's Tritium installs have been faultless for nearly 3 years now. I imagine they think the unit isn't doing much gathering dust in a warehouse, and the network has enough density now that the backup unit isn't as vital.. (or see my further speculation at the end of this post)

Also in the north-west, groundworks are happening at Tullah. Apparently EHT were waiting on the council to start work on a new public toilet as they were going to install the charger at the same time to save civil works costs. This will be another 24 kW site.

No more updates on any other operators sites (Evie, etc.)

Location of sites shown above:

Clive gave some updates on future plans at the last AEVA meeting (late May).

Upcoming sites:

• Exeter, Miena and Cradle Mountain are waiting on hardware to arrive (Kempower).

Sites being expanded:

• Devonport and Burnie are getting their single Tritium 50 kW units removed and both being replaced with two-stall Kempower sites. (And knowing Kempower hardware, I'm guessing the sites will be built so that future expansion will be easier.)
• Swansea will have a second Tritium 50 kW installed back to back with the existing one. My guess is one of the Devonport/Burnie 50 kW units will go to Swansea, and the other one will go into the "spare parts" pool (see my comment about Smithton earlier)

Future speculation:

• Ross and Deloraine appeared on NRMA's national network plan, so maybe expect something (150 kW or higher) sometime in 2025(?).

 

[Vostok]

I really don’t like seeing those charge cables scraping along the ground though