Taycan Takedown

[Octo]

All things aside...this younger guy from fully charged, who i find kind of annoying( the older english guy is much more “sensible”)..was basically giddy even after 31 sprints in the taycan. It’s got to be a pretty decent ride even if it does not have autopilot and all the tech of a tesla. Porsche has a different design philosophy, they may look at advanced auto summon and think why the heck does anyone want that. Cars are meant for driving...forget summon...just go walk 20 feet and park the car yourself.

What makes you think Porsche won’t have competitive tech?

Teslas current FSD?!?

My 2017 Macan also can keep itself in a lane - yes, it’s implemented much more conservatively (min. speed, disengages sooner) and it doesn’t try to visualize what it detects (thank god - at least no dancing cars) but my P3’s AP isn’t much more useful as it always makes a dangerously dumb decision after a while.
The Porsche also has much better blind spot detection.

My P3’s autonomy features are a practical joke and going by non-Tesla marketing videos of Enhanced Summon and NOA, Porsche has nothing to worry about.

Porsche just doesn’t bloviate about FSD like Tesla has since 2015 with little actually useful and safe to show in 2019.

 

[Eno Deb]

And I guess there’s small consolation in having autosteer on while you give the Taycan TWO middle fingers as they pass you by.

Be careful, you might get two fingers back. Below is a picture of the front of a Taycan prototype. The sensor in the middle looks suspiciously like a Valeo Scala lidar ...

 

[MacGreiner]

I'm one of those who thinks that any EV mile driven is a good mile. Well done Porsche. For some I think it will be a great car.
Jonny from Fullycharged isn't a Tesla fan based on his later tweets.

 

[IraB]

Faults with both videos. Where are all the stats on the Porsche ? What was the battery level at start? at finish? any charging done in between? All the important stuff left out resulting in the value of "It didn't explode" ok great. Model 3 video, hey great, also doesn't explode but also only ran to just over 60mph instead of 124mph. Do I think that would have made a difference in its ability to do 30 runs? Not at all, check out my videos on Driving_Tesla on YouTube and you'll see the Model 3 Performance being hammered on at the track repeatedly, it can take that in track mode all day. So honestly, until someone redoes these "tests" and does them under equal conditions and reveals all the stats I find both not much more than marketing fluff.

There were follow up articles in the 3 big car mags describing the tests in more detail. From what I read, the Taycan was not charged between these runs (though it was fully charged to start) and the total variation in performance from best to worst of the 30+ runs was 0.8 seconds. Can the M3P really do that? Even if it can, it can't do 0-124 in less than 10 seconds. It traps between 113 and 116 from all reports I have seen and that is at 11.5 to 11.7 seconds.

The MSP can probably keep up in a single drag race since the Raven now goes 10.5 at 127 in the quarter. However, that is after the battery is conditioned. It appears the Taycan can just walk up to the line and do 0-124 in less than 10 seconds with no significant prep and it can do it over and over. The pre-Raven MSP can't do that 30+ times in a row, it will overheat. We don't yet know if Tesla improved the cooling on the Raven enough to take this kind of abuse.

In any case, I own both a M3P and a 911 (991.2) C4 GTS. They are both great cars, but they are very different. When I want to travel with my family in a quiet and comfortable car, the M3P is the better choice. When I want to DRIVE, the 911 is by far the better alternative. The 911 is much more involving and gives a much better feel for the road. In the M3P, I feel insulated from the road and a bit disconnected. It is actually very relaxing for long trips, but it is not what a driving enthusiast seeks.

While I have no greater insight into the Taycan than anyone else here, based on my overall experience with Porsche, I believe the Taycan will reproduce the driving feeling of a 911 to a substantial degree. The notion of a family sedan with a high performance electric drive train that still feels like a 911 and handles and brakes like a 911 is something that Tesla does not offer. But it is clear that Tesla has not focused on offering this either. The MS is aimed at a wider audience and is a more practical car being a hatchback with seating for 5 while the Taycan has a smaller trunk and seating for 4. The M3 has proven to be a very effective competitor for the BMW 3, Merc C-class, etc. at a price that now substantially undercuts the comparable models. However, this is also not the class with which the Taycan competes. In this context, it makes no more sense to compare a M3 to a Taycan than it would to compare a BMW M3 with a Panamera. In both cases, the Porsche is far more expensive and aimed at a different buyer.

The area where the Taycan will not compete well with Tesla is range and charging. Specifically, all the car mags suggested that the Taycan may only have a 230 to 250 mile range. Also, it will rely on Electrify America charging stations which apparently charge significantly more than Superchargers. Thus, road trips will likely be less convenient and more expensive with a Taycan than with a Tesla.

 

[evalst2018]

What makes you think Porsche won’t have competitive tech?

Teslas current FSD?!?

My 2017 Macan also can keep itself in a lane - yes, it’s implemented much more conservatively (min. speed, disengages sooner) and it doesn’t try to visualize what it detects (thank god - at least no dancing cars) but my P3’s AP isn’t much more useful as it always makes a dangerously dumb decision after a while.
The Porsche also has much better blind spot detection.

My P3’s autonomy features are a practical joke and going by non-Tesla marketing videos of Enhanced Summon and NOA, Porsche has nothing to worry about.

Porsche just doesn’t bloviate about FSD like Tesla has since 2015 with little actually useful and safe to show in 2019.

Its more about the platform Tesla is providing...it has the potential of being far more nuanced and capable than lidar based lane keep systems today. Yes today, they may materially be seen as functionally congruent, however, the tesla platform has much more potential.

Or at least that is what Tesla is communicating outwards. Time will tell.

FSD is orders of magnitude more complex than lane keeping, it is like comparing a baby crawling in one direction vs a human doing parkour.

 

[VQTRVA]

P3d half the price of a Porsche Taycan and it takes down the main marketing point of Porsche. Not to mention all the other benefits of tesla charging network, better battery technology...

2 things:

1) Why the inferiority complex from the M.3 fans?
2) Posting some guy having an orgasmic face isn't click worthy.

 

[wenkan]

There were follow up articles in the 3 big car mags describing the tests in more detail. From what I read, the Taycan was not charged between these runs (though it was fully charged to start) and the total variation in performance from best to worst of the 30+ runs was 0.8 seconds. Can the M3P really do that? Even if it can, it can't do 0-124 in less than 10 seconds. It traps between 113 and 116 from all reports I have seen and that is at 11.5 to 11.7 seconds.

The MSP can probably keep up in a single drag race since the Raven now goes 10.5 at 127 in the quarter. However, that is after the battery is conditioned. It appears the Taycan can just walk up to the line and do 0-124 in less than 10 seconds with no significant prep and it can do it over and over. The pre-Raven MSP can't do that 30+ times in a row, it will overheat. We don't yet know if Tesla improved the cooling on the Raven enough to take this kind of abuse.

In any case, I own both a M3P and a 911 (991.2) C4 GTS. They are both great cars, but they are very different. When I want to travel with my family in a quiet and comfortable car, the M3P is the better choice. When I want to DRIVE, the 911 is by far the better alternative. The 911 is much more involving and gives a much better feel for the road. In the M3P, I feel insulated from the road and a bit disconnected. It is actually very relaxing for long trips, but it is not what a driving enthusiast seeks.

While I have no greater insight into the Taycan than anyone else here, based on my overall experience with Porsche, I believe the Taycan will reproduce the driving feeling of a 911 to a substantial degree. The notion of a family sedan with a high performance electric drive train that still feels like a 911 and handles and brakes like a 911 is something that Tesla does not offer. But it is clear that Tesla has not focused on offering this either. The MS is aimed at a wider audience and is a more practical car being a hatchback with seating for 5 while the Taycan has a smaller trunk and seating for 4. The M3 has proven to be a very effective competitor for the BMW 3, Merc C-class, etc. at a price that now substantially undercuts the comparable models. However, this is also not the class with which the Taycan competes. In this context, it makes no more sense to compare a M3 to a Taycan than it would to compare a BMW M3 with a Panamera. In both cases, the Porsche is far more expensive and aimed at a different buyer.

The area where the Taycan will not compete well with Tesla is range and charging. Specifically, all the car mags suggested that the Taycan may only have a 230 to 250 mile range. Also, it will rely on Electrify America charging stations which apparently charge significantly more than Superchargers. Thus, road trips will likely be less convenient and more expensive with a Taycan than with a Tesla.

I took my Model 3 to the track several times. Each track day I have 30+ laps with each lap top speed higher than 125mph. Considering way more load in lapping compared to straight lines, I'm purely confident model 3 can do 30 0-124 without any issue. The time is another story, but remember the price difference. In fact I believe tesla just "occasionally" build a family sedan that can beat ///m3, c63s and 718s on the track.

Taycan is a purpose built EV performance car, it cost way more than model 3 to get slightly better performance (still waiting on lap time). Interestingly, if you consider the ICE car in the corresponding price range, they are still way faster than Taycan (GTR, 911, NSX etc). The only car can beat model 3 in it's price point is corvette C8, which just development complete yet. The counterpart of Taycan, etron-GT things on tesla side is always the roadster, the only purpose built sports car in tesla's catalog.

 

[Octo]

Its more about the platform Tesla is providing...it has the potential of being far more nuanced and capable than lidar based lane keep systems today. Yes today, they may materially be seen as functionally congruent, however, the tesla platform has much more potential.

Or at least that is what Tesla is communicating outwards. Time will tell.

FSD is orders of magnitude more complex than lane keeping, it is like comparing a baby crawling in one direction vs a human doing parkour.

I understand that. My P3 can’t even “crawl like a baby in one direction” to use your analogy without getting confused. It’s just that Tesla decided to be a whole lot more reckless than Porsche by leaving AP engaged even when it shouldn’t be. And yada yada, I know when it comes down to it, it’s just a driver assist and the driver has to be able to take full control at any time. Some wonderful tech advantage LOL.

My Macan’s LKA is just as useful but less dangerous than my P3’s AP.

Where is this alleged Tesla FSD? In Elon’s fantasy world since 2015? Certainly not in Teslas available to the public.

Doesn’t Porsche use Mobil Eye or similar? I’m sure they have competent engineers and likely a much nicer work environment (a less mercurial/unstable boss) and more money. So I doubt Tesla’s tech has more potential. Does Elon even still have employees in his FSD team? Didn’t the good ones all flee this year?

 

[CarlK]

Include that the cars being compared costs $60K Tesla vs $120 for the Taycan - You guys are full of it,

The top Taycan model that is comparable in performance with P3D will cost $140,000 before options. It also does not have any of Tesla's autopilot and FSD features. They are indeed apples and oranges or one is for people with money to throw away and one is not (so much).

 

[Eno Deb]

Also, it will rely on Electrify America charging stations which apparently charge significantly more than Superchargers. Thus, road trips will likely be less convenient and more expensive with a Taycan than with a Tesla.

Taycan will reportedly come with 3 years of free fastcharging in the EA network.

Its more about the platform Tesla is providing...it has the potential of being far more nuanced and capable than lidar based lane keep systems today.

There are no "lidar based lane keep systems". Lane keep systems work with cameras for lane marker recognition (e.g. Tesla or Mobileye solution). There is only one production car today that comes with a lidar (the Audi A8), and it uses it for partial autonomy features. I think there is a good chance that the Taycan will get a version or the Audi system as well.

 

[TJ73]

It's good to see more & more mfrs making EVs, though too slow for my liking. The segment really needs more competition. I'm sure the Taycan is going to be amazing, just like most Porsches... but unless they plan to make one for $60k, I'm really not that interested.

 

[RonFTW]

The 2 speed gearbox is the most interesting thing.

 

[evalst2018]

I understand that. My P3 can’t even “crawl like a baby in one direction” to use your analogy without getting confused. It’s just that Tesla decided to be a whole lot more reckless than Porsche by leaving AP engaged even when it shouldn’t be. And yada yada, I know when it comes down to it, it’s just a driver assist and the driver has to be able to take full control at any time. Some wonderful tech advantage LOL.

My Macan’s LKA is just as useful but less dangerous than my P3’s AP.

Where is this alleged Tesla FSD? In Elon’s fantasy world since 2015? Certainly not in Teslas available to the public.

Doesn’t Porsche use Mobil Eye or similar? I’m sure they have competent engineers and likely a much nicer work environment (a less mercurial/unstable boss) and more money. So I doubt Tesla’s tech has more potential. Does Elon even still have employees in his FSD team? Didn’t the good ones all flee this year?

Tesla may have over engineered the solution without any real benefit...time will tell. FSD is really ambitious, if you start thinking about all the various conditions, its a long-tail. It will never cover 100% of the use cases at best 98%. The question will be is that good enough?

 

[ZoomsansVroom]

I think the FSD may have the same issue as the wipers. Tesla is interesting because they try to be different - but they reject well-worked out solutions because of it.

Unless Porsche has suddenly changed, the Tacan will still be a Porsche - so excellent build quality, great customer service, and delivery dates will actually mean something.

AKA, why Tesla needs a hard nosed COO, with full support of the board, and Musk needs to no longer have the ability to directly communicate with the public.

 

[Rockster]

As others have said, the Model 3 Performance and the Taycan are apples and oranges. The 3 definitely wins any bang for the buck analysis but, despite its range and infrastructure shortcomings, I think the Taycan is going to impress. It's not going to take a ton of sales from Tesla (precisely because of those range and infrastructure shortcomings) but it's going to be well received in the Porsche community and by others who, for whatever reason, are interested in a well performing EV but have decided that an S or an X isn't for them.

Unlike BMW's offerings, the Taycan is going to be like a Tesla in that it's an EV that one doesn't have to apologize for.

 

[Seven7]

I just don't think Porsche is serious about fully electric cars. Tesla has been building fully electric cars since 2008, Porsche just started, who do you want building your car? No thanks Porsche.

 

[Asterix187]

It’s one more ev people can buy instead of an ICE car.

Some people will prefer a Taycan, others a Tesla.

Get over yourselves.

 

[CarlK]

The 2 speed gearbox is the most interesting thing.

Yes interesting but not in a good way to reflect on Porsche's technology. Why add cost and liability to a car that does not out-accelerate Tesla and has a higher top speed. We don't have the number yet but most likely it will also not reach Tesla's efficiency. It Porsche could make a $140,000+ car and there are people who are willing to buy all power to them. That does not mean it can compete with Tesla though.

 

[VT_EE]

LOL! “Butt hurt”?? You assume too much! Observations...yes. I thought this was a forum to exchange information(?) Why the snark?

Keeps it entertaining and colorful. Just don’t take it too far!

 

[VT_EE]

Anyone who has ever spent time driving a Porsche, or just spent time as a passenger in a Porsche knows why the Taycan will cost more than a Tesla. No doubt, many Tesla owners will not find the extra cost worthwhile. However, Porsche has reported that a significant number of people who have put down deposits on the Taycan are Tesla Model S owners. The Taycan is already sold out for the fist year.

Porsche has been in business a long time. They know how to design and build exceptional automobiles. The Taycan will be no different. And in the not-too-distant future, the iconic 911 will have an electric version as well.

Prediction: in the not too distant future, all 911s will be electric. Once you have a 911 with the benefits of an electric, why would anyone buy the gas version? In 5-10 years batteries will also be improved.