Tesla Alternative?

[FastLaneJB]

But with the average miles per day per driver being only 30.... most?



Needs better infrastructure for sure for the most part, not necessarily bigger batteries.


Again down to infrastructure. More slower chargers for people shopping, staying in hotels, land post chargers, work place chargers etc will take the strain from rapid chargers and help with battery longevity. I agree with faster charging which some cars still coming out now dont have in comparison to what tesla has had for many years.

I know it's easy for us to think about ourselves and own case scenarios and wonder how everyone else will cope but most people dont do very long journeys much.

Good points of course and I don't disagree. Remember though that 1/3 of the country roughly I believe won't be able to charge at home. So more range means spending less of their time going to public chargers if they cannot charge at work either.

Also even if you mostly do short trips, people do long trips on occasions and there's no issues doing this in an ICE. It's clearly not as convenient yet in an EV nor has the flexibility. More range will really help with that and the cars will charge quicker also.

 

[pdk42]

You might not be charging to 100% on public chargers due to the slow down in charging. Better to get moving and then charge again on a lower SOC.

I fly gliders for a pastime/sport and making progress cross country is theoretically similar to an EV journey, but with many more charging stops. Basically, you climb in a thermal by circling (= charge up), then you glide in a straight line (= use up your charge) until you get low (= low on charge), at which point you need to stop and circle in a thermal again (= another charge).

If you fly faster in the glide then you burn height more quickly than if you go slower, so you need to climb (charge) more often. If you stop too often in weak climbs (slow chargers) then you waste time. And by a really weird quirk of physics, climb rates often drop off near the top of the thermal, just like fast charges slow down as the battery gets full.

So what’s the best strategy for maximum cross country speed? - how fast should you go between thermals? Well, thankfully, the theory of all this was solved years ago. Basically, it boils down to this:

- The single biggest factor in cross country speed is climb rate (= charge rate). Find the best thermals/chargers. The speed between thermals is a smaller factor.

- The speed you should go when gliding should be based on the expected climb rate of the next thermal. If you are confident of finding a good strong thermal ahead, then you can pile the speed on.

The specific climb rates and speeds to use are all based off the ”polar curve” for the glider - which is in effect a plot of drag vs speed.

Translated to EV charging, the strategy maps across easily:

- Ensure the average charge rate is as high as you can make it. Don’t hang around as the charge rate drops waiting for 100% charge - so long as you are confident of reaching the next charger.

- You can go faster between charges if you are confident of getting a good charge rate at the next one.

The big challenge in gliding is finding thermals - which is way harder than finding chargers. Even ZapMap looks good compared to sniffing out the best climbs, esp in typical UK conditions.

 

[Js1977]

Also even if you mostly do short trips, people do long trips on occasions and there's no issues doing this in an ICE. It's clearly not as convenient yet in an EV nor has the flexibility. More range will really help with that and the cars will charge quicker also.

Yes, the bigger the "tank" the better and certainly gives more flexibility, specially for those that cant charge overnight. However, What I generally see with those that do the occasional very long trips is not a complaint that the battery is not big enough but its more to do that either chargers are broken or finding rapid ones conveniently.

There are a few people out there that drive from Cornwall to the south or Portugal in a standard range Tesla without issues but whenever there is a issue, its always to do with charging.

For the most part, what Im saying is that putting nice to have bigger batteries in most cars just to make up for the lack of infrastructure is a waste of resources imho.

 

[FastLaneJB]

Yes, the bigger the "tank" the better and certainly gives more flexibility, specially for those that cant charge overnight. However, What I generally see with those that do the occasional very long trips is not a complaint that the battery is not big enough but its more to do that either chargers are broken or finding rapid ones conveniently.

There are a few people out there that drive from Cornwall to the south or Portugal in a standard range Tesla without issues but whenever there is a issue, its always to do with charging.

For the most part, what Im saying is that putting nice to have bigger batteries in most cars just to make up for the lack of infrastructure is a waste of resources imho.

I don't think it'll be that wasteful as I'm not talking about bigger batteries using current battery technology or chemistry. I mean increased range due to improvements. The same quantity of resources and maybe even more plentiful resources to give the car more range.

I just got back from a trip around Wales. I stayed in some lovely hotels that didn't have EV chargers that you'd likely not pick if you had an EV as you want to charge overnight. If its not resources in batteries then its resources fitting charging stations all over the place. There needs to be a balance and at the moment I think we need more faster chargers but also cars need more range. Once that range becomes cheap and light so there's little reason to not increase a cars range. Of course there will be a limit and maybe that's double the real world range the cars have currently. Beyond that its probably diminishing returns.

 

[Js1977]

I stayed in some lovely hotels that didn't have EV chargers that you'd likely not pick if you had an EV as you want to charge overnight.

I dont think if I had kept My Golf R or bought the RS3, I would of been able to visit these lovely hotels either

 

[FastLaneJB]

I dont think if I had kept My Golf R or bought the RS3, I would of been able to visit these lovely hotels either

Did it in my Disco but even the V12 BMW I had could do 300 miles on a tank, more than the wife's Tesla and there's enough petrol stations that its never a worry.

EV's I'm sure will get there but they aren't perfect yet, mainly around range and charging. Thankfully regardless of what we think, they'll keep improving them regardless and if the market wants more range like I do, it'll happen. If not I'll have to accept cheaper cars with similar range that we get now.

 

[WannabeOwner]

I don't think it'll be that wasteful as I'm not talking about bigger batteries using current battery technology or chemistry. I mean increased range due to improvements. The same quantity of resources and maybe even more plentiful resources to give the car more range.

The improvements will be lighter too - so less weight to haul around, so reduction in "resources" on that count too. Double whammy. And mining will be scaling up ... more raw material, less per battery, less weight per battery, so more range from that benefit too. The supply-chain just needs to Extract Digit in 2024

I stayed in some lovely hotels that didn't have EV chargers that you'd likely not pick if you had an EV as you want to charge overnight.

Me too. We have chosen "has charger" overnight stops, and foregone some of the nice places we would have stayed in the past. I don't get why the "nice places" didn't bother to put chargers in - Tesla was providing destination chargers for free back then ... those places have lost my custom, and I have found new nice places so not going back.

Same as my ICE mates. Green (only with envy) for my EVs - performance and money saved etc. etc.. but they have done diddly-squat, and now they are starting too adopt all the incentives have gone already, and I've had 200K miles of enjoyment and zero smelly forecourt fill-ups for 7 years

 

[Js1977]

Did it in my Disco but even the V12 BMW I had could do 300 miles on a tank, more than the wife's Tesla and there's enough petrol stations that its never a worry.

It reaffirms the value of infrastructure that can be done now over developments that mwill take longer and initially cost more to us.

I know it can be some adjustment for those that travel long distances allot but for those of you that also enjoy some performance, we've got to be thankful that at least we didn't end up in the same way Concorde did.

 

[Whyone]

For all the smug 'money saving' talk, this article confirms my feelings that the biggest cost of owing a car - depreciation - is currently worst with EV's, and their hydrocarbon-burning cousins are holding their prices extraordinarily well ATM.

I'm pretty sure depreciation allied to higher insurance costs (yes, I know premiums on ICE cars have also increased, but generally from a much lower starting point) put a significant dent in the economic arguments for running an EV.

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/opinion/chris-harris-bonkers-used-car-prices

 

[Js1977]

And then there are those things that are priceless...

 

[Whyone]

And then there are those things that are priceless...

Maybe....but those things tend not to me tangible / materialistic.

My Tesla is worth ~40% what I paid for it 14 months ago.

My petrol burning car is worth ~400% of what I paid for it 12 years ago.

I know which I prefer driving and it also happens to be the one which provides far and away the most economical motoring.

 

[browellm]

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/opinion/chris-harris-bonkers-used-car-prices

"Any number of pious metropolitan politicians can tell normal people that the motor car should be banned"

What is this pound-shop Clarkson nonsense?

 

[Js1977]

My Tesla is worth ~40% what I paid for it 14 months ago.

My petrol burning car is worth ~400% of what I paid for it 12 years ago.

I know which I prefer driving and it also happens to be the one which provides far and away the most economical motoring.

It doesn't seem like you needed another car at all and certainly not electric if you are looking for advice

 

[Whyone]

It doesn't seem like you needed another car at all and certainly not electric if you are looking for advice

I wasn't.

 

[Whyone]

What is this pound-shop Clarkson nonsense?

There is a bit of that, but dig behind the hyperbole, there is no denying that EV's are depreciating at a furious rate, whilst many ICE's are loosing value much, much more slowly than they have historically.

 

[browellm]

EV's are depreciating at a furious rate

1. Great news for increasing access for more people to buy EVs
2. It will stabilise soon enough because 'market'.
3. Doesn't adversely affect a large demographic. People who paid cash for a new commodity item in free supply who hoped to turn a profit?

 

[Whyone]

1. Great news for increasing access for more people to buy EVs
2. It will stabilise soon enough because 'market'.
3. Doesn't adversely affect a large demographic. People who paid cash for a new commodity item in free supply who hoped to turn a profit?

I'd agree with 1. (my son's have both bought nearly new EV's at ~35% off list price) and 2., though the timing of 2 his highly uncertain and with oil prices falling ATM (when in more normal times you'd expect them to be at seasonal highs) I can see this any time soon.

As for 3. - no, it doesn't adversely affect a lot of people, but it certainly is does nothing to encourage EV adoption for many many people either.

 

[WannabeOwner]

EV's are depreciating at a furious rate, whilst many ICE's are loosing value much, much more slowly than they have historically

Cherry picking of a point-in-time, which I expect will change, "tomorrow", unexpectedly and with no warning ...

 

[12Pack]

Cherry picking of a point-in-time, which I expect will change, "tomorrow", unexpectedly and with no warning ...

Exactly correct. I expect the “400% appreciating“ petrol car was purchased at the point of full depreciation and is essentially worthless. You could do the same with an old EV, the difference being the petrol car technology has ceased to evolve leading to a false sense of value for the old grease bucket. This is coming from a guy with a large stable of high value grease buckets…..

 

[Whyone]

Exactly correct. I expect the “400% appreciating“ petrol car was purchased at the point of full depreciation and is essentially worthless. ......

Impressive insight.

My NSX cost me £30k.