Tesla AP+phantom braking vs what are best non-Tesla AP alternatives?

[guardyourheart]

I have an order on a MYLR, which I'm primarily buying for AP on my 100 mile round trip commute on interstate divided highways, After placing the order, I learned about phantom braking issues with radarless Tesla Vision and have read many PB threads here. Trying to figure out whether to look at another car.

When I rented a 2019 M3 (radar+camera) for a week on my commute, it worked great: no PB, lots more energy for the kids when I got home. But if there is some chance of PB with camera only AP, it won't help me save energy or lessen commuting fatigue. PB seems random enough depending on the car and situation that it's tough to predict unless I took delivery. That makes me increasingly nervous, on top of Tesla's reputation for poor service.

If your main purpose of buying a Tesla is for AP to save energy on an interstate highway commute, would you buy the Tesla even with the PB risk? What small-medium AWD SUVs or sedans with similar AP capabilities would you consider instead? All engine types are fine--AP capabilities and overall car reliability are the most important, and seat comfort next most important. Comma.ai/Openpilot didn't work for my car.

 

[brkaus]

it’s way overblown.

 

[guardyourheart]

it’s way overblown.

Is your Tesla camera only or camera+radar?

 

[brkaus]

I have radar, so perhaps a lucky one. I do occasionally get phantom braking or phantom slowing. Haven’t in quite some time. But friend has recent car and he doesn’t see it much either.
I’ve also read that the older cars are not using radar on the recent software versions, but not sure.

When I did experience it, it was very situational and pretty repetitive (same places).

 

[Thp3]

Re: @guardyourheart ”If your main purpose of buying a Tesla is for AP to save energy on an interstate highway commute, would you buy the Tesla even with the PB risk?

Yes, I would. Phantom breaking is a software development issue and is improving at each update ( monthly).

”What small-medium AWD SUVs or sedans with similar AP capabilities would you consider instead? All engine types are fine--AP capabilities and overall car reliability are the most important, and seat comfort next most important. Comma.ai/Openpilot didn't work for my car.”

There are not any equivalent assisted driving cars. And Tesla car seats are very comfortable for long drives. Tesla is 3-10 years ahead of any other car manufacturer. For example, until they build cars with a unified control network they will not be able to deliver over the air (OTA) updates. Tesla has been doing that since at least 2014.

Other manufacturers are not vertically integrated and are forced to rely on third party suppliers.

 

[SilverString]

I purchased FSD for the primary purpose of limiting driver fatigue and it has worked very well. I have yet to use the beta on a long road trip but PB has improved to the point that it wouldn’t stop me from doing so. Of course I do have the option of turning the beta off and allowing the production FSD to utilize the radar that is in my legacy car.

From what I can tell there are no other manufacturers with anything close to production FSD, much less the FSD beta.

 

[TresLA]

Phantom braking experience is a mixed bag. Some say it was much worse with radar and others say the opposite. I’m unsure why there’s such wide variance so I can only give our experience: 2018 Model 3 (so it has radar), and we rarely experienced phantom braking, but it did happen from time to time. It wasn’t often enough to be an issue though, and long road trips are much much easier with AP. When using a rental car (legacy/ICE), I REALLY notice how much I miss AP. We were fortunate enough to join FSD beta last October (2021). Our radar is reportedly now shut off and so we are only using the production vision only stack for highways (FSD beta shuts off after getting on a highway). Phantom braking seems no worse than before. I’ve still noticed it once in awhile, but it’s too infrequent for me to see a pattern. In my experience (both with radar before October and now without radar after October), phantom braking is about the same frequency when on highways, but… different reasons I think? Too infrequent to know beyond just a feeling at this point.

 

[SalisburySam]

I have an order on a MYLR, which I'm primarily buying for AP on my 100 mile round trip commute on interstate divided highways, After placing the order, I learned about phantom braking issues with radarless Tesla Vision and have read many PB threads here. Trying to figure out whether to look at another car.

Datapoint: my 07/2018 M3 with RWD and FSD has experienced phantom braking throughout its life and 93 OTA software updates. Early on it was because it didn’t handle well things like overpasses, sign bars above roadways, and so on. That has been pretty much resolved. What remains is the true phantom braking that occurs in the middle of nowhere for no apparent reason resulting in passenger WTF moments of surprise and discomfort. Recent updates do seem to have reduced this annoyance but is has not been eliminated, at least for me. With the many threads on phantom braking, I’m led to believe my experience is not common; most owners seem to not have the issue, but a small portion of us do. Tesla is aware of this as many of us have had service appointments solely for this where technicians do some magic software verification, review camera/radar placement and functioning, etc. The end result is always something like: “your car is working normally and this will be addressed in a future software update.”

Given the reduced amount of phantom braking I now have, and the fact that most owners do not have this, I wouldn’t cross off the Tesla from your shortlist of next vehicles for this reason. And radar, which my car has, seems to not be a factor and is disappearing anyway.

And all that said, although I considered replacing my aging and almost useless 2012 Nissan LEAF with a Model Y, I am instead looking at other options. For me, this is because I’m tired of the UI designer playground moving driving controls around. I want a vehicle with switches, buttons, knobs, levers, stalks, etc. for key driving controls and leave the iPad for one-time vehicular settings, infotainment, and navigation. And I want a binnacle or HUD in front of me, not at my 3 o’clock position off to my right. I’m keeping the Model 3 for awhile longer, and I’ve enjoyed and still value the vehicle tremendously. But this may be my last Tesla…I want to revert back to a vehicle with controls that cannot be arbitrarily moved around. Stodgy, old fashioned, stuck-in-the-past, I know. But it’s our money, our wants, and today’s market supports that.

 

[guardyourheart]

These are options I've considered:

Tesla: AP excellent on interstate, PB increases driver fatigue, service center terrible if service needed
Cadillac SuperCruise: no stock w/in 300 miles of here, terrible reliability
Ford Mach-E: Blue Cruise didn't work as well as advertised, not available in long range
Subaru: Eyesight driver assistance as good as AP on highway, but feels uninspiring like driving a bus/truck
Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Acura: great cars, but terrible driver's assistance
Comma.ai/Openpilot: rave reviews but didn't work in my car

Any other suggestions?

 

[avs007]

Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Acura: great cars, but terrible driver's assistance

Not that it matters, but of all my cars, my Acura MDX actually phantom brakes the most...

 

[SalisburySam]

These are options I've considered:

Tesla: AP excellent on interstate, PB increases driver fatigue, service center terrible if service needed
Cadillac SuperCruise: no stock w/in 300 miles of here, terrible reliability
Ford Mach-E: Blue Cruise didn't work as well as advertised, not available in long range
Subaru: Eyesight driver assistance as good as AP on highway, but feels uninspiring like driving a bus/truck
Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Acura: great cars, but terrible driver's assistance
Comma.ai/Openpilot: rave reviews but didn't work in my car

Any other suggestions?

Hyundai Ioniq5. It’s what I’m buying when I can actually get one.

 

[zorrobyte]

I have a 2019 M3 LR and I still get frequent phantom braking. Compared to other ADAS systems and OpenPilot, it's unsafe and I can't trust AP; even if I still elect to use it.

 

[Thp3]

Car choices are personal preference.

I live 150+ miles from a Tesla Service center. I’ve been there three times in five car-years. I had excellent service. I wish I could call on the phone, but I get fine replies from the Tesla App.

Phantom braking for me is an occasional modest phantom slowing when testing FSD on two lane roads. It is when approaching a “brush or snow hidden” intersection. It’s much less than 5 months ago. But worries are worries.

The Tesla strengths of superchargers, OTA, Autopilot/FSD, Build quality (ala Monroe Live tear downs), five star crash safety ratings and the Tesla App make a compelling case for owning a Tesla car.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

One thing to keep in mind when you make your decision is PB is known to be a major issue on undivided roads which are the opposite of your use case. Now this isn't to say you won't have PB events with divided roads, but that they're more rare.

In my car I'll get one or two mild to moderate PB events every 200 miles on divided roads.

Is it above what I'd consider acceptable? Yes

Is it a major issue that will prevent me from using it? No

Is it really any worse than radar+vision that I experienced before FSD Beta gave me Tesla Vision? Not really

 

[zorrobyte]

Comma Openpilot on any of their supported cars. I've used it since 2019 and it's refreshing to have an open codebase, people who don't lie, and the ability to modify whatever code you want. It can also be installed on Teslas, I'm considering installing it on my Model 3 as AP pales in comparison to OP.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Comma Openpilot on any of their supported cars. I've used it since 2019 and it's refreshing to have an open codebase, people who don't lie, and the ability to modify whatever code you want. It can also be installed on Teslas, I'm considering installing it on my Model 3 as AP pales in comparison to OP.

Would be interested in seeing comparisons.

 

[sleepydoc]

it’s way overblown.

I would disagree. I’ve found Tesla’s TACC to be the worst on the market and there are plenty of posts from people who have ’upgraded’ from an older Tesla to a newer one and say “holy crap! PB is awful in my new car!” The other thing I’ll point out is that it’s incredibly variable and inconsistent from car to car so you may well have very few problems while others have much more.

Re: @guardyourheart ”If your main purpose of buying a Tesla is for AP to save energy on an interstate highway commute, would you buy the Tesla even with the PB risk?

Yes, I would. Phantom breaking is a software development issue and is improving at each update ( monthly).

”What small-medium AWD SUVs or sedans with similar AP capabilities would you consider instead? All engine types are fine--AP capabilities and overall car reliability are the most important, and seat comfort next most important. Comma.ai/Openpilot didn't work for my car.”

There are not any equivalent assisted driving cars. And Tesla car seats are very comfortable for long drives. Tesla is 3-10 years ahead of any other car manufacturer. For example, until they build cars with a unified control network they will not be able to deliver over the air (OTA) updates. Tesla has been doing that since at least 2014.

Other manufacturers are not vertically integrated and are forced to rely on third party suppliers.

Unfortunately, PB isn’t consistently improving.

We have a 2020 Subaru Forester with their ‘Eyesight’ system. Since purchasing it both the Adaptive cruise system and the lane-keep assist feature have worked perfectly. It’s not autopilot but works well for highway driving.

 

[sleepydoc]

These are options I've considered:

Tesla: AP excellent on interstate, PB increases driver fatigue, service center terrible if service needed
Cadillac SuperCruise: no stock w/in 300 miles of here, terrible reliability
Ford Mach-E: Blue Cruise didn't work as well as advertised, not available in long range
Subaru: Eyesight driver assistance as good as AP on highway, but feels uninspiring like driving a bus/truck
Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Acura: great cars, but terrible driver's assistance
Comma.ai/Openpilot: rave reviews but didn't work in my car

Any other suggestions?

I just got done driving a 2021 Camry rental. The adaptive cruise worked perfectly but the lane keep assist did a poor job of centering the car in the lane and I felt like I was constantly fighting it. I assume that all Toyota/Lexus models use the same system.

re: Subaru, see my above comments. I won’t disagree with the driving performance, but the adaptive cruise and lane keep assist work perfectly.

I will also agree with others - I’ve had good service at my local Tesla service centers. That very much depends on the individual location, much like car dealerships for other brands.

 

[OliverM3]

No issues on my 2022 LR I also do 100 mile highway commute and haven't had any phantom brake problems. It's a mix of 2-3 lane per direction.
It's more enjoyable than my Audi S3 which bounced off the painted line. That had the strangest lane keep system with radar it felt like you had a bumper on the line that was pushing the car back in the lane every couple seconds. This car maintains a nice center position no bouncing.

 

[zorrobyte]

I would disagree. I’ve found Tesla’s TACC to be the worst on the market and there are plenty of posts from people who have ’upgraded’ from an older Tesla to a newer one and say “holy crap! PB is awful in my new car!” The other thing I’ll point out is that it’s incredibly variable and inconsistent from car to car so you may well have very few problems while others have much more.

Unfortunately, PB isn’t consistently improving.

We have a 2020 Subaru Forester with their ‘Eyesight’ system. Since purchasing it both the Adaptive cruise system and the lane-keep assist feature have worked perfectly. It’s not autopilot but works well for highway driving.

Can agree. Bought a used 2019 M3 thinking the radar would prevent me from having issues. I've had more phantom braking than literally any other system I've used, and that's saying a lot considering how awful Toyota LTA is.

Openpilot also perfectly works fine with Subaru, you should keep it and install OP instead comma – introducing comma three