Tesla belatedly tries to make their connector a North American standard

[Genie]

This is more about the reality of mega charging. Cybertruck has a 1000V architecture, it needs a lot more than V3 (~300kW) and CCS (!350kW) can provide (by standard and by deployment). Other new Teslas will have 1000V architectures, too. Roadster? Refreshed S and X?

Tesla will roll out lots of V4 with NACS for all these passenger vehicles. With pull through stalls for towing Cybertrucks (and Model Y). These will happen at Superchargers along the freeways, especially at truck stops, and with a little bit of care, can be used by Semi trucks and Cybertrucks both.

”Says Elon”

 

[meitschis]

V4 Superchargers will use NACS. Semi and Megachargers will likely use MCS, at least from what we have seen. (What we saw was the rectangular prototype that has since been replaced by the triangular version.)

V4 Supercharger will have 1MW+ and be used by the Semi and Cybertruck. Do you think they lied?

We did see some early version of MCS. Maybe that's even deployed at PepsiCo.

 

[MP3Mike]

V4 Supercharger will have 1MW+ and be used by the Semi and Cybertruck. Do you think they lied?

They never said Semis well use the V4 Superchargers.

 

[meitschis]

”Says Elon”

Which part do you think will not happen?

 

[meitschis]

They never said Semis well use the V4 Superchargers.

They said to charge a truck this quickly, they developed a MW class charger, It's labelled V4 on the slide. It can have a small cable. It's going to be used for Cybertruck, too. This is coming to superchargers next year.

Interpreting this as they won't use V4 for Cybertruck and Semi Truck is a bit far fetched.

Why would they secretly develop another charger while they tell us that both Cybertruck and Semi Truck will use this one?

(The Tesla owned video is broken for me, so you get CNET)

 

[MP3Mike]

It's labelled V4 on the slide. It can have a small cable. It's going to be used for Cybertruck, too.

That slide is about the liquid cooled cable they developed, not the chargers. There is no reason the Superchargers and Megachargers can't use the same cable, just with different plugs. And maybe different size conductors, since the Semi will require higher charge rates.

 

[meitschis]

That slide is about the liquid cooled cable they developed, not the chargers. There is no reason the Superchargers and Megachargers can't use the same cable, just with different plugs. And maybe different size conductors, since the Semi will require higher charge rates.

True. "it" could refer to the cable only.

But is it really worth building a 500+kW pillar for most of the fleet and a 1.5MW pillar for the rest of the fleet? Maybe.
What would you put in Inyokern, CA, or at the truck stop in Minot, ND? 12 V3@350kW, 2 V4@500kW, and 6 [email protected] with V4 cables? Or V4-extra-wide cables?

Or do you just put 20 [email protected] chargers?

 

[MP3Mike]

But is it really worth building a 500+kW pillar for most of the fleet and a 1.5MW pillar for the rest of the fleet? Maybe.
What would you put in Inyokern, CA, or at the truck stop in Minot, ND? 12 V3@350kW, 2 V4@500kW, and 6 [email protected] with V4 cables? Or V4-extra-wide cables?

Or do you just put 20 [email protected] chargers?

Semi and car charging aren't likely to be mixed. For starters the charge port location seems to be incompatible. Semi charging has to have room to be pull through with space for 50+ foot trailers. Possibly even two or three trailers. Look at how much space Tesla used for 4 Megachargers, where are they going to get 5+ times that space?

It is possible that the Cybertruck will be able to use the Semi charging.

Also, according to the NACS standard it has only been tested to 900kW. I doubt you are going to get the 1.6MW the Semi will require with it.

 

[meitschis]

Yeah, it may be a stretch.

Tesla needs pull throughs for towing anyway. It's a major pain to unhook a trailer to back into a Tesla stall. If you look at e.g. InyoKern, CA, there is a pull through big enough for a Semi with Trailer. It will block the Rivian pull through.

The cost of building a nation wide Semi only charging network that will only be used by 100,000 trucks is going to be gigantic, and basically cap ex sitting empty most of the time.

But if 2M Tesla vehicles can use those stations, they instantly expands the network for everyone, and starts generating revenue from day one. Of course, among major routes you will have locations with 50 Megawatt chargers for Semis, and small car chargers over at the next establishment. And of course there won't be huge chargers at the downtown Safeway.

But building out a new location, especially at an existing truck stop, they could continue to put more and larger pull throughs there. They put some V4 chargers in, and as they need more capacity, they add batteries and more V4 chargers. They are building sites like this already. Ready for another 40 stations, conduit in the ground, concrete pads built, but no hardware.

NACS has been tested to 900kW with "non-liquid cooled vehicle". The charge port likely is the limiting factor. NACS doesn't have a max on Amperage. If a Semi has a liquid cooled NACS port, it will be able to go higher, maybe 50%? That may be enough for "70% in 30 minutes"

 

[stopcrazypp]

Yeah, it may be a stretch.

Tesla needs pull throughs for towing anyway. It's a major pain to unhook a trailer to back into a Tesla stall. If you look at e.g. InyoKern, CA, there is a pull through big enough for a Semi with Trailer. It will block the Rivian pull through.

The cost of building a nation wide Semi only charging network that will only be used by 100,000 trucks is going to be gigantic, and basically cap ex sitting empty most of the time.

But if 2M Tesla vehicles can use those stations, they instantly expands the network for everyone, and starts generating revenue from day one. Of course, among major routes you will have locations with 50 Megawatt chargers for Semis, and small car chargers over at the next establishment. And of course there won't be huge chargers at the downtown Safeway.

But building out a new location, especially at an existing truck stop, they could continue to put more and larger pull throughs there. They put some V4 chargers in, and as they need more capacity, they add batteries and more V4 chargers. They are building sites like this already. Ready for another 40 stations, conduit in the ground, concrete pads built, but no hardware.

NACS has been tested to 900kW with "non-liquid cooled vehicle". The charge port likely is the limiting factor. NACS doesn't have a max on Amperage. If a Semi has a liquid cooled NACS port, it will be able to go higher, maybe 50%? That may be enough for "70% in 30 minutes"

Semi has been captured using an earlier version of the MCS connector. If they were going to use NACS, I doubt they would have gone with a version of the MCS and I don't see why they wouldn't have announced it at the Semi event. I looked at the presentation, the reference to both Cybertruck and Semi using the same technology is the immersion cooling of the cable. That does not necessarily mean they use the same connector.

 

[bradtem]

Semi has been captured using an earlier version of the MCS connector. If they were going to use NACS, I doubt they would have gone with a version of the MCS and I don't see why they wouldn't have announced it at the Semi event. I looked at the presentation, the reference to both Cybertruck and Semi using the same technology is the immersion cooling of the cable. That does not necessarily mean they use the same connector.

On an expensive vehicle like the Semi you can but both connectors. You need a much smaller charging networks for the semi, because at first people buy it not to go anywhere in the country, but to follow some very specific routes. In fact, early users will probably use use it depot to depot less than 400 miles so it doesn't charge except at the depot. Later you develop some specific highways with charging stops every 250 miles. Which possibly can also be used by cars when there is not a semi that has the connector reserved. And I bet if they allow cars to use it, they will have a reservation system because the trucker does not want to get there and find she can't charge.

 

[stopcrazypp]

On an expensive vehicle like the Semi you can but both connectors. You need a much smaller charging networks for the semi, because at first people buy it not to go anywhere in the country, but to follow some very specific routes. In fact, early users will probably use use it depot to depot less than 400 miles so it doesn't charge except at the depot. Later you develop some specific highways with charging stops every 250 miles. Which possibly can also be used by cars when there is not a semi that has the connector reserved. And I bet if they allow cars to use it, they will have a reservation system because the trucker does not want to get there and find she can't charge.

Earlier Semis were captured with adapter boxes to chain multiple supercharger connectors, so certainly it's possible they added one for extra flexibility. But I'm talking mainly about the main connector for the semi. If NACS was the sole connector and they didn't adopt a version of MCS, I don't see why they wouldn't have shown it off at the event (instead of just talking about immersion cooking).

 

[bradtem]

Earlier Semis were captured with adapter boxes to chain multiple supercharger connectors, so certainly it's possible they added one for extra flexibility. But I'm talking mainly about the main connector for the semi. If NACS was the sole connector and they didn't adopt a version of MCS, I don't see why they wouldn't have shown it off at the event (instead of just talking about immersion cooking).

Right now, if I am a customer, I will want NACS and MCS on the truck. (And 350kw CCS as well, via the Tesla adapter perhaps.) You should do what the customer wants. What they want will change as it becomes clear how widely deployed megawatt NACS and MCS will be. Though frankly it's not clear how many superchargers or CCS stations you could park a semi-truck at. You might have to remove the trailer, which is not ideal but it can be done if you are trying to do a route served only that way. Use of those standards is only good for long stops (like overnight) or 2-3 hour breaks at 250kw or 350kw so you might be OK with removing the trailer.

Since single driver trucks are only allowed to drive 11 hours per day, overnighting them at a supercharger or CCS station is not at all unreasonable. In fact, since megawatt charging is going to be so expensive it gets to be more than the price of diesel, this might well be a common choice. There is no bed in the semi so you would need to find one of those chargers next to a motel. And perhaps a promise from Tesla of no idle charges overnight, since very few SC get anywhere near full at night.

 

[meitschis]

Though frankly it's not clear how many superchargers or CCS stations you could park a semi-truck at.

Probably about 0% (rounded). But there are a few, and I expect more and more pull-through, including wider one anywhere a Semi would want to charge. Not needed in down-town Santa Monica, of course, but at existing truck stops that are getting superchargers.

The key insight is that Tesla can start building them everywhere with V4 starting next year, and generate revenue on them while we wait for Cybertrucks and Semitrucks to show up.

GM got lots of press for their plans, but Tesla has already been building V3 supercharger stations at flyingj/pilot locations. Sometimes, it will just be on the adjacent lot, too.

Hope, BC

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

goo.gl

(Silver Creek, not Pilot, in this case)
This works for a Cybertruck Towing, and would fit an 18-wheeler, too. It would take 3 towing spaces, but there is plenty of room.

Cabazon, CA

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

goo.gl

 

[gnuarm]

The CCS1 to NACS adapter is quite useful; our winter home is in rural SE Arizona and there's two EA CCS1 stations conveniently located at Walmarts (Benson AZ, Deming NM) along the I-10, so we can shop for groceries whilst our M3 RWD is charging. EA stations have a terrible reliability problem with their 350kw DCF chargers. In 6 stops, we've yet to find a 350kw charger that was working properly. The 150kw chargers seem better.

Do you not charge at home?

 

[gnuarm]

Pot, meet kettle Man, you sure have a short memory

Care to explain what you are talking about???

 

[DuncanM]

Do you not charge at home?

I do, but this is a very rural area and a round trip to 'the big city' requires charging enroute. Deming is about 115 miles from our home and the Deming Walmart has an EA station. The closest DCFC to us is the EA station in Lordsburg.

 

[gnuarm]

I do, but this is a very rural area and a round trip to 'the big city' requires charging enroute. Deming is about 115 miles from our home and the Deming Walmart has an EA station. The closest DCFC to us is the EA station in Lordsburg.

Wow! I have a frequent drive to an airport I use because of the flight schedules. That's 125 miles each way. Along that route I pass half a dozen or more Superchargers and another airport. I can't imagine 115 miles just to shop. It must be a really nice place to live.

 

[DuncanM]

Wow! I have a frequent drive to an airport I use because of the flight schedules. That's 125 miles each way. Along that route I pass half a dozen or more Superchargers and another airport. I can't imagine 115 miles just to shop. It must be a really nice place to live.

Well to be fair, the nearest town with a big box retailer is Douglas AZ, and it's only ~60 miles, but it has no EV chargers of any kind. Of course I can make it there and back on a single charge, returning with ~50% SOC. However we prefer to shop in Deming because it has a few other amenities like a movie theatre. There's also a Tesla SC station in Deming, just north of the I10. When we travel to Deming it's more convenient to charge and shop at The EA/Walmart location, or at the EA station in Lordsburg NM on the return leg, because then I'm down to ~15% SOC vs ~50% at Deming.

It's a very remote and quiet area, and is renowned for it's dark skies at night.

 

[gnuarm]

Well to be fair, the nearest town with a big box retailer is Douglas AZ, and it's only ~60 miles, but it has no EV chargers of any kind. Of course I can make it there and back on a single charge, returning with ~50% SOC. However we prefer to shop in Deming because it has a few other amenities like a movie theatre. There's also a Tesla SC station in Deming, just north of the I10. When we travel to Deming it's more convenient to charge and shop at The EA/Walmart location, or at the EA station in Lordsburg NM on the return leg, because then I'm down to ~15% SOC vs ~50% at Deming.

It's a very remote and quiet area, and is renowned for it's dark skies at night.

Do you not have the long range version of the car? I guess 240 miles would be the long range version with a pad for safety. In fact, when I explain to people why BEVs don't get the full range, I take 10 to 20% off the top, then another 10% off the bottom, then 25% for winter weather (maybe more depending) and 30% for worse case wear on the battery. As you can see, that's pretty severe. It doesn't factor in the spacing of chargers, which are not likely to match your remaining range. Even when only factoring in 10% off the top, these numbers result in 43% of the quoted range being usable through the life of the car and in most conditions.

This is why I waited until I could get the 290 mile version of the model X before I bought a Tesla. It's still rather tight on many of my trips. I pretty much always stop to charge on the way back from the airport (250 miles round trip). Sometimes I also stop to charge on the way up, so I don't have to worry about where I'm charging on the way home, late at night. I stopped once at University Part in MD. I only stayed five minutes and will never return at night.

The dark skies at night sound great. I have a photo somewhere someone took on a camping trip in that corner of the US. It has a flash illumination of the local area, on top of a time exposure of the sky. It's a beautiful shot!