Tesla belatedly tries to make their connector a North American standard

[gnuarm]

We've drifted a fair bit from the question of whether the Tesla connector can or should become a universal connector in NA.
(Not that I haven't drifted topics myself.)

But perhaps a different thread for the question of what EV adoption itself has looked like and will look like.

You are right. Thanks.

I had resigned myself to the idea of needing a CCS adapter and possibly needing to have my car upgraded to work with it. It never worked with the Chademo adapter. But this does give me hope that the pendulum may swing the other way. If other charging stations start adding the Tesla connector, I think it will be game over.

While there are more CCS stations, there are more Tesla chargers. Many of the CCS chargers don't work at any given time, if you can believe the stories of newbies making trips and having to stop overnight to charge. That doesn't really happen with Tesla Superchargers. I can't remember ever seeing a station out of service. It will be nicer to have North America swing over to the Tesla connector. It's just nicer to deal with, rather than the large, clunker CCS connector.

 

[bradtem]

You are right. Thanks.

I had resigned myself to the idea of needing a CCS adapter and possibly needing to have my car upgraded to work with it. It never worked with the Chademo adapter. But this does give me hope that the pendulum may swing the other way. If other charging stations start adding the Tesla connector, I think it will be game over.

While there are more CCS stations, there are more Tesla chargers. Many of the CCS chargers don't work at any given time, if you can believe the stories of newbies making trips and having to stop overnight to charge. That doesn't really happen with Tesla Superchargers. I can't remember ever seeing a station out of service. It will be nicer to have North America swing over to the Tesla connector. It's just nicer to deal with, rather than the large, clunker CCS connector.

Correct. Most Tesla drivers will pick SC if it's available, but there are exceptions

• CCS station is much better price than Tesla, and shows good reliability on Plugshare
• CCS station is much better located than SC -- or in fact there is no SC around at all convenient to the route
• CCS station works as a "range anxiety eliminator" because it is 20 miles closer than the SC, so you can use it for a short charge and do more at SC later. This lets you plan more easily, and also take unplanned side-trips knowing you can charge a bit closer.

SC are placed to let you get a lot of places, but often only with direct driving, and no significant detours. CCS stations can sometimes solve that.

 

[gnuarm]

Correct. Most Tesla drivers will pick SC if it's available, but there are exceptions

• CCS station is much better price than Tesla, and shows good reliability on Plugshare
• CCS station is much better located than SC -- or in fact there is no SC around at all convenient to the route
• CCS station works as a "range anxiety eliminator" because it is 20 miles closer than the SC, so you can use it for a short charge and do more at SC later. This lets you plan more easily, and also take unplanned side-trips knowing you can charge a bit closer.

SC are placed to let you get a lot of places, but often only with direct driving, and no significant detours. CCS stations can sometimes solve that.

I don't know anything about prices. I have free Supercharging. There are a few areas I drive with not enough Superchargers, but they have no alternatives either.

One problem with the "also ran" chargers, is they span a wide range of charging rates. You have to use the software carefully to eliminate the 50 kW "fast" chargers if you are serious about a trip. I sometimes use a 75 kW Urban charger because it's at a convenient spot to the airport and the slow charging actually works for me, giving time to get a sandwich.

That's actually one of the problems with charging BEVs. The charging speeds are slow enough to make you not want to wait, but too fast to give time to even walk anywhere, much less do much.

CCS does nothing for my "range anxiety". I don't have the adapter. What would help me with range anxiety would be better trip planning software. When I drive to my CM, again, about 125 miles away, but not toward any major cities, I have three choices for charging. One is a Sheetz gas station (bottom of my list), the other is a Sheetz gas station (but more out of the way) and a parking lot in Charlottesville that has some walkable food places. The problem is being certain that I can reach this location. I often use ABRP to help with this, since it has lots of flexibility, etc. while the Tesla navigator does not. But the Tesla navigator works and ABRP requires the browser in the car that pretty much crashes every time it's used, the only question is when.

All the trips I go on, I would be much better served if the non-Tesla electron pumps had Tesla connectors. Or what do they call that, the NACS connector.

 

[srs5694]

I had resigned myself to the idea of needing a CCS adapter and possibly needing to have my car upgraded to work with it.

I wouldn't get my hopes up about the car-upgrade side of the equation. As I understand it, Tesla has opened the physical and electrical aspects of their connector design, but not the protocols used. Thus, if and when third-party charging providers start adding NACS plugs to their chargers (natively, not via CHAdeMO or CCS adapters), they'll presumably work only with Teslas that are already CCS-enabled, since they'll probably be NACS plugs that communicate via the CCS protocol. (I suppose in theory they might use whatever Tesla uses on the Tesla side of its CHAdeMO adapter, but that would limit them to 50 kW. I don't know offhand how close that is to "real" CHAdeMO, or whether there would be IP or technical issues with third-party DC fast chargers implementing it.) To work with non-CCS-enabled Teslas, the third-party charging stations would need to use Tesla's Supercharger protocol, and AFAIK that's still proprietary to Tesla.

In the long run, this is probably fine; with Tesla's production increasing, sooner or later CCS-enabled Teslas will vastly outnumber those without that feature. Add the fact that Tesla has said they'll offer a retrofit, and some people are already doing that themselves, and the day when most Teslas can "talk" CCS will come even sooner.

 

[gnuarm]

I wouldn't get my hopes up about the car-upgrade side of the equation. As I understand it, Tesla has opened the physical and electrical aspects of their connector design, but not the protocols used. Thus, if and when third-party charging providers start adding NACS plugs to their chargers (natively, not via CHAdeMO or CCS adapters), they'll presumably work only with Teslas that are already CCS-enabled, since they'll probably be NACS plugs that communicate via the CCS protocol. (I suppose in theory they might use whatever Tesla uses on the Tesla side of its CHAdeMO adapter, but that would limit them to 50 kW. I don't know offhand how close that is to "real" CHAdeMO, or whether there would be IP or technical issues with third-party DC fast chargers implementing it.) To work with non-CCS-enabled Teslas, the third-party charging stations would need to use Tesla's Supercharger protocol, and AFAIK that's still proprietary to Tesla.

That's a weird thing to think of. In the US, there are no Teslas that are CCS capable that I'm aware of. Why would they provide a CCS capability if you can't plug into a CCS type charger. I suppose you are suggesting they have been planning this for some time and there are now many Teslas in North America that will support the CCS protocol if the connector is mated.

In the long run, this is probably fine; with Tesla's production increasing, sooner or later CCS-enabled Teslas will vastly outnumber those without that feature. Add the fact that Tesla has said they'll offer a retrofit, and some people are already doing that themselves, and the day when most Teslas can "talk" CCS will come even sooner.

At this point, it will be some time before the CCS1 enabled Teslas outnumber the Tesla only vehicles. The idea that Tesla will offer a "retrofit" is a reach. Or I should say, it won't be cheap! Nothing about a Tesla is cheap!

 

[MP3Mike]

That's a weird thing to think of. In the US, there are no Teslas that are CCS capable that I'm aware of. Why would they provide a CCS capability if you can't plug into a CCS type charger. I suppose you are suggesting they have been planning this for some time and there are now many Teslas in North America that will support the CCS protocol if the connector is mated.

Yes, most NA Tesla made in the last couple years are CCS capable. And Tesla sells an adapter that allows you to use it. (As charging providers add the NACS connector, the adapter wouldn't be necessary.)

CCS Combo 1 Adapter

Expand your fast charging options with the Tesla CCS Combo 1 Adapter. The adapter offers charging speeds up to 250kW and can be used at third-party charging networks. The CCS Combo 1 Adapter is compatible with most Tesla vehicles. Some vehicles may require a retrofit to enable use of the CCS...

shop.tesla.com

At this point, it will be some time before the CCS1 enabled Teslas outnumber the Tesla only vehicles. The idea that Tesla will offer a "retrofit" is a reach. Or I should say, it won't be cheap! Nothing about a Tesla is cheap!

Tesla says that they will provide a retrofit next year. (We don't know for how much, but it is priced very reasonably in Europe.)

The CCS Combo 1 Adapter is compatible with most Tesla vehicles. Some vehicles may require a retrofit to enable use of the CCS Combo 1 Adapter. Sign in to your Tesla account to check compatibility.

Note: For vehicles requiring a retrofit, please check back in early 2023 for availability.

 

[ElectricIAC]

It could be a gamble to see if it sticks.

Tesla is known for trying things and backing down or doubling down depending on enthusiasm or at least a lack of protest.

 

[srs5694]

That's a weird thing to think of. In the US, there are no Teslas that are CCS capable that I'm aware of. Why would they provide a CCS capability if you can't plug into a CCS type charger. I suppose you are suggesting they have been planning this for some time and there are now many Teslas in North America that will support the CCS protocol if the connector is mated.

My apologies for lack of clarity. I was referring to CCS software support, not the CCS1 hardware connector. Most Teslas made in the last ~2 years for sale in North America have had the chip required for CCS communications, and so can charge at CCS1 DC fast chargers with the use of any of several (Tesla and third-party) adapters. These adapters are simple pass-through devices that enable a physical connection, but they require the Tesla to "speak" the CCS protocol. Older cars will need a circuit board swap to support this feature. Some people have already done this using an unofficial DIY modification, and Tesla has announced that they'll offer an official upgrade path sometime early next year. If you have a Tesla that lacks CCS compatibility, you can check your Tesla app under the "Service" section; there should be an item called "CCS Adapter Retrofit." Clicking it currently brings up a message to check back "in early 2023" if you want to have the update installed.

This same update will presumably be required to charge at third-party stations that add NACS plugs to their chargers (natively, not via CHAdeMO adapters), but that's an assumption at this point. In theory, they might add Supercharger protocol support, but that would require either reverse-engineering that protocol or support from Tesla. It's also unclear just how many third-party DC fast charging providers will add NACS plugs; it could be anywhere from an underwhelming trickle to a flood.

 

[gnuarm]

Yes, most NA Tesla made in the last couple years are CCS capable. And Tesla sells an adapter that allows you to use it. (As charging providers add the NACS connector, the adapter wouldn't be necessary.)

So the adapter is purely mechanical with no electronics? That would explain the "low" price of $250. It's the DC fast equivalent of the J1772 adapter.

CCS Combo 1 Adapter

Expand your fast charging options with the Tesla CCS Combo 1 Adapter. The adapter offers charging speeds up to 250kW and can be used at third-party charging networks. The CCS Combo 1 Adapter is compatible with most Tesla vehicles. Some vehicles may require a retrofit to enable use of the CCS...

shop.tesla.com

Tesla says that they will provide a retrofit next year. (We don't know for how much, but it is priced very reasonably in Europe.)

How much does it cost, installed, in the EU?

 

[MP3Mike]

How much does it cost, installed, in the EU?

Currently about $270 for the adapter and retrofit.

Model S CCS Upgrade

This upgrade to your Model S and adapter allow you to access our latest generation V3 Supercharging technology with smoother power delivery and no need to power-share with the car next to you. In addition to our Supercharging network, your Model S will also be compatible with public charging...

shop.tesla.com

Note: It started at about $500.

 

[ElectricIAC]

Currently about $270 for the adapter and retrofit.

Model S CCS Upgrade

This upgrade to your Model S and adapter allow you to access our latest generation V3 Supercharging technology with smoother power delivery and no need to power-share with the car next to you. In addition to our Supercharging network, your Model S will also be compatible with public charging...

shop.tesla.com

That seems reasonable.

 

[DrGriz]

So the adapter is purely mechanical with no electronics? That would explain the "low" price of $250. It's the DC fast equivalent of the J1772 adapter.

Yes. Completely mechanical pass through. Which is why several nonOEMs became available this summer just before Tesla began selling them in the US.

 

[srs5694]

How much does it cost, installed, in the EU?

I don't know about the EU cost for retrofitting older Teslas, but in the US, the relevant circuit board, purchased from Tesla's parts department, costs something like $120 or $140 (from memory). How much Tesla will charge for installation is unknown, but with the adapter costing $250, that plus the retrofit will probably be $400+, and more likely $500+, unless Tesla decides to offer retrofits at cost or even at a slight loss. If you don't want the adapter and just want to use the (hopefully abundant in the future) third-party DC fast chargers with NACS cables, the retrofit cost would likely be $150-$300, but that's just my own guesstimate.

(Note that I've quoted the price for the circuit board that's in current-production Teslas. This can be used in older cars, but only with the help of an adapter cable; see this thread for details. Speculation is that Tesla will create a new circuit board for older cars, but it'll be almost identical to the current one, so the cost should be similar.)

 

[bradtem]

My apologies for lack of clarity. I was referring to CCS software support, not the CCS1 hardware connector.

The Gen4 Teslas all have software to support the CCS charge negotiation. That's the same amount of software support as most of the CCS cars out there. However, some CCS cars now support the "plug and charge" protocol, which is CCS' attempt at duplicating the Tesla experience, and it is supported by EA and some other charging networks. However, it's really over-complex from what I can see looking at it, which may slow down and hurt the experience.

Tesla gets it easy with their protocol. Every Tesla has an account with credit card on file with Tesla. (Salvage Tesla might not have this.) They don't need to do a lot of fuss, the Tesla just has to provide authentication of what car it is (the VIN) and presumably this is done in a digitally signed way so people can't hack on to other people's accounts but I don't know what they do in specific. I don't know if they made it even work when the SC is disconnected from the internet temporarily to confirm the account is in good standing. I don't believe the car needs to authenticate much about the SC.

Plug and Charge had to deal with charge stations from many vendors and cars from many vendors, so it put in a much more complex auth scheme with a PKI and chargers authenticating to cars and I think the ability to do the credit card transaction over the cable so that a car can pull up that is unknown to the charger but it can provide a card to pay with and charge. It also has to support accounts (because if you have a "membership" you don't want to be just a credit card) So that makes it messier.

However, I have been presuming that Tesla will put in code to support this protocol when I bring my Tesla with adapter to an EA station and provide it a credit card, or my EA pass information so I can plug and charge there. Can't see much reason not to.

 

[Earl]

Maybe I could get a translation of your post. I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Can you give a hint? Even a teensy, tiny one?

I was simply responding to your point about government requirements with information (and a reference), about which, your post indicated you didn't know.
I was also answering your question about where I've been since 2018.
You, apparently, don't understand how things actually happen. As someone who has been involved with getting EVs from a concept to a huge reality, I'm trying to help you to understand what that process is and what the various hindrance and promoting forces have been. There has been a long, drawn-out clash between forces tied to the status quo and what basically amounts to a grass-roots conspiracy of those of us who have been promoting a transition to sustainable electric transportation.
What's wrong with that?

 

[TunaBug]

I wouldn't get my hopes up about the car-upgrade side of the equation. As I understand it, Tesla has opened the physical and electrical aspects of their connector design, but not the protocols used. Thus, if and when third-party charging providers start adding NACS plugs to their chargers (natively, not via CHAdeMO or CCS adapters), they'll presumably work only with Teslas that are already CCS-enabled, since they'll probably be NACS plugs that communicate via the CCS protocol. (I suppose in theory they might use whatever Tesla uses on the Tesla side of its CHAdeMO adapter, but that would limit them to 50 kW. I don't know offhand how close that is to "real" CHAdeMO, or whether there would be IP or technical issues with third-party DC fast chargers implementing it.) To work with non-CCS-enabled Teslas, the third-party charging stations would need to use Tesla's Supercharger protocol, and AFAIK that's still proprietary to Tesla.

In the long run, this is probably fine; with Tesla's production increasing, sooner or later CCS-enabled Teslas will vastly outnumber those without that feature. Add the fact that Tesla has said they'll offer a retrofit, and some people are already doing that themselves, and the day when most Teslas can "talk" CCS will come even sooner.

I think it was very smart for Tesla to use the mechanics of the Tesla connector but the signaling protocol of CCS. Regardless of how I might complain of Tesla’s software QC, they are still far better than EA, EVgo, or any of the others. And those companies buy charging equipment from a third party, so they have to get updated firmware from somebody else on top integrating and deploying it. No wait, they would have to get firmware from every hardware partner and integrate all of it. Any of those folks trying to do the Tesla protocol would be a train wreck that would completely break any potential adoption of NACS.

With Tesla’s decision those folks can keep their firmware, replace a connector, and they’re done. Any software rollout is Tesla’s problem to support CCS at SC chargers in the US, and since they already support it in Europe, that should be relatively easy.

 

[gnuarm]

I was simply responding to your point about government requirements with information (and a reference), about which, your post indicated you didn't know.
I was also answering your question about where I've been since 2018.
You, apparently, don't understand how things actually happen. As someone who has been involved with getting EVs from a concept to a huge reality, I'm trying to help you to understand what that process is and what the various hindrance and promoting forces have been. There has been a long, drawn-out clash between forces tied to the status quo and what basically amounts to a grass-roots conspiracy of those of us who have been promoting a transition to sustainable electric transportation.
What's wrong with that?

I see your post to me, but I see no reference. Also, your post was not very coherent, with mentions of somebody's "mantras". If you want to discuss the issues, please do so. But I'm not interested in nonsense.

 

[cleverscreenam]

Not completely true. They blacklist cars they don't want on their network, such as salvage cars that have been restored.

And do you know how they do this? Because I sure do.
They make a network connection to the salvage vehicle through the vehicle's cellular antenna, and change the DCFC flags stored in gateway.cfg on the MCU.
But yeah, every word of my post was completely true, even if you didn't know/understand it.

wk057, the supreme authority on this topic, has posted that there's no known instances thus far of Tesla using the supercharger-to-vehicle command to permanently disable DCFC (with an EMMC write that root access can't modify, you'd have to replace the chip.)

 

[ElectricIAC]

And do you know how they do this? Because I sure do.
They make a network connection to the salvage vehicle through the vehicle's cellular antenna, and change the DCFC flags stored in gateway.cfg on the MCU.
But yeah, every word of my post was completely true, even if you didn't know/understand it.
wk057, the supreme authority on this topic, has posted that there's no known instance thus far of Tesla using the supercharger-to-vehicle command to permanently disable DCFC (with an EMMC write that root access can't modify, you'd have to replace the chip.)

Can this be avoided by changing the SIM to one that isn’t being footed by Tesla?

 

[cleverscreenam]

I haven't researched SIM changing, alternative apps to control the car, etc. I don't care about any of the internet connection/app benefits (I even use a 12v quick-disconnect every night to prevent vampire drain), so I'm content to simply unplug the cell antenna from the back of the MCU. But all that SIM/data info is definitely here on TMC, I've seen it but didn't bother reading it.
The member who rooted my car said he has methods to protect root access and DCFC even if you're leaving the car online connected to Tesla mothership.