Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla BEV Competition Developments

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Regulatory issues in the US do hamper Tesla, but Tesla still sells 40-50% of its cars here (this year will be higher, but that's only because the M3 is only available in the US and Canada right now). Tesla has a strong fan base in the US which consists of some traditional luxury car buyers, but a heck of a lot of people who have no interest in European luxury cars. The EVs coming in from the European luxury car makers will have at least some passing interest from Americans interested in EVs, but few will sell to people who aren't also into the European luxury branding.

Europeans see Audi, Mercedes, Volvo, Jaguar, BMW etc. differently from Americans. Americans have gone for those brands more in the last 10-20 years than they did in before that, but many Americans still see them as somewhat snooty brands. In Europe I believe the less expensive cars from those brands sell better than cars like the Camry or Accord. They are more seen as mid-range priced cars.

At least in the US, Tesla's brand spans socioeconomic groups. I know quite a few people who would never consider a European luxury car who want a Tesla (or already have one). I see a socioeconomic split here on the forum with some people who have driven luxury cars for many years and getting a Tesla was just another in a long line of expensive cars and others who come from a very different mindset and always drove far more humble vehicles almost always by choice.

And Tesla gets half of its American sales in California and about 20% to Florida where there are no anti-Tesla laws, then another good chunk to Oregon,Washington, Nevada, and Arizona.

There are large swaths of America where Tesla is incognito.

Audi has come on strong in the last 10-20 years.

Volvo has gone from the brand of value conscious liberals to competing directly with BMW and Mercedes.

Since the Germans never royally screwed up reliability and dependability the Japanese never established a beachhead in Europe. Ergo BMW, Mercedes and to a lesser extent Audi have dominated company cars with lower spec C Class 3 Series where in America those are Accord,Camry, Malibu and until recently Fusion. And the percentage of company cars is much higher in Europe. In foreign lands, the Germans attack the higher margin sales. As Detroit automakers tend to do in Foreign lands.

GM/Ford concentrate in the upper 1/3 of the market in China for example.

What we have here at TMC is not exactly a representative sample of the American car buyer. There are lots of American buyers in the bottom half of the socioeconomic strata that should be buying a 4 year old Prius or LEAF but stretch their budgets to lease a low spec BMW 3 Series, Mercedes CLA Class or even a used Cadillac Escalade.

In America there are quite a few "millionaires" that make $40k/year. Tesla is not unique among premium brands in getting people to stretch their budgets. The largest Mercedes dealer in the US is due South of Los Angeles in Orange County. Fletcher Jones Motorcars. They run ads saying "If you can afford a Honda Accord EX we can get you into a Mercedes."
 
Good prospective. FWIW Cali is <30% of NA sales for the 3:

Capture+_2018-09-26-13-04-53.png
 
And Tesla gets half of its American sales in California and about 20% to Florida where there are no anti-Tesla laws, then another good chunk to Oregon,Washington, Nevada, and Arizona.

There are large swaths of America where Tesla is incognito.

Audi has come on strong in the last 10-20 years.

Volvo has gone from the brand of value conscious liberals to competing directly with BMW and Mercedes.

Since the Germans never royally screwed up reliability and dependability the Japanese never established a beachhead in Europe. Ergo BMW, Mercedes and to a lesser extent Audi have dominated company cars with lower spec C Class 3 Series where in America those are Accord,Camry, Malibu and until recently Fusion. And the percentage of company cars is much higher in Europe. In foreign lands, the Germans attack the higher margin sales. As Detroit automakers tend to do in Foreign lands.

GM/Ford concentrate in the upper 1/3 of the market in China for example.

All good points.

I have been thinking about the predicted "blue wave" this November. Most people are concentrating on how it might impact Washington DC. (That is the subject of the Market Politics thread...) In the states it will probably have an impact on state legislatures too. Last year it almost happened in Virginia. Some states might find a Democratic majority for the first time this decade. While the dealership lobby will still be active in those states, a Democratic legislature may be a bit more willing to think about changing the dealership laws at least in some places. I wouldn't get my hopes up about states like Michigan, but Tesla might get a leg up in some of the other states.

No guarantees, but the odds improve at least a little.

What we have here at TMC is not exactly a representative sample of the American car buyer. There are lots of American buyers in the bottom half of the socioeconomic strata that should be buying a 4 year old Prius or LEAF but stretch their budgets to lease a low spec BMW 3 Series, Mercedes CLA Class or even a used Cadillac Escalade.

In America there are quite a few "millionaires" that make $40k/year. Tesla is not unique among premium brands in getting people to stretch their budgets. The largest Mercedes dealer in the US is due South of Los Angeles in Orange County. Fletcher Jones Motorcars. They run ads saying "If you can afford a Honda Accord EX we can get you into a Mercedes."

Interestingly Bob Lutz of all people recently made similar points:

He was lamenting the decline of the auto industry in general. He set aside autonomous driving as something that would happen eventually, but talked about the things impacting the industry today. He made the same point you did about leasing cars. Because of it, anyone who can afford $400/mo can get into just about any brand of car.

They also touched on Tesla and in this longer format he was able to put his thoughts about Tesla in better context than a short interview on CNBC. He pointed out that he thought Tesla's cars were excellent in design and innovation as well as driving quality. He mentioned that too many car companies have made EVs that were very different from ICE and screamed to the world you were driving an EV and Tesla was the first to come out with an EV that didn't scream it to the world. Which he thought was a good thing.

His primary issue with Tesla is about their business model. He does make a valid point that the competition can bring out EVs that are as compelling as Tesla at a lower price, even if they are losing money on the car, they can make it up with ICE sales. As he points out GM can make up all the losses on the Bolt by raising the price of their pickups $200 each.

I do think he's missing some things. Tesla has gotten the cost per unit for EVs rolling out the factory door down much below anyone elses cost thanks to volume producing li-ion batteries. Tesla's volumes even when the M3 hits full production is below any of the major auto makers. Next year they may make it to about 500K cars, but that will still be 1/2 of Subaru's production and 1/20 GM, Toyota, or VW.

However all the competition coming along will all be in limited quantities in the first few years at least. If demand for these competitors is high, they will have the same problem as the eGolf and Kona. They will run out of batteries and have to slow down or idle production. Tesla is at least partially battery limited too, but their limits are much, much higher and they have a cheaper path to making more.

While the traditional car companies have ICE sales to fall back on, Tesla energy has a strong potential market there that they may be able to exploit soon. The solar roof has been slow to get off the ground and the Powerwall sales have been badly backed up. If they can get that side of the company straightened out soon, that will spread their areas of income better.

I do have my concerns about Tesla though. They have not expanded the service center network for the Model 3 and both delivery centers and service centers are overloaded. Ranger service has been expanded, but what they can do is limited. They have now put out the call for existing owners to help with new customer orientation the last two weeks of this month. While it is a good opportunity for existing owners who want to talk about Tesla to find a willing audience and experienced owners can probably tell new owners things the delivery people don't know, but it shows how thinly stretched the company is.

Tesla also needs to open up training for repair to non-Tesla employees so independent shops can work on them. That doesn't impact the warranty work, but it does help with the cars out of warranty that need work as well as those under warranty they owner is willing to pay for because going to Tesla is too difficult. Tesla has set up some company owned body shops and that's OK, but they need to fill the parts supply line. Many damaged cars sit for months waiting for parts from Tesla. Cars get in accidents, modern safety features can reduce them, but not eliminate them.

Tesla has been brilliant at pulling rabbits out of hats both innovating and coming up with novel solutions to problems. The manufacturing tent was an amazing success. But one area where they are weak compared to other companies making cars is logistics. In some areas they manage the logistics OK, but good logistics for a complex organization has many layers of logistics and Tesla is terrible at some of those areas.

The spare parts problem is one of them. A good logistics plan dedicates a certain small percentage of production towards making spare parts that will be needed in the field. Those parts are then stored as close to where they might be needed as practical and you wait for the orders to come in.
 
His primary issue with Tesla is about their business model. He does make a valid point that the competition can bring out EVs that are as compelling as Tesla at a lower price, even if they are losing money on the car, they can make it up with ICE sales. As he points out GM can make up all the losses on the Bolt by raising the price of their pickups $200 each.

While this seems sensible on the surface, it wouldn't work out. The thing is, they won't steal many Tesla customers that way.

Instead, they'll steal their own customers from the ICE lines, and accelerate the EV transition - forcing them to raise the ICE prices higher, which will again make their EV offerings look more attractive.

Tesla customers are still a small fraction of the total market, and the big 3 are (correctly, IMHO) much more worried about cannibalizing their own sales than about Tesla. Any car they build that comes close to matching a Tesla will beat their ICE lineup by a mile in driving experience while not having Tesla's handicaps from the dealer association (though it may still be challenged by poor and unmotivated dealers.)
 
While this seems sensible on the surface, it wouldn't work out. The thing is, they won't steal many Tesla customers that way.

Instead, they'll steal their own customers from the ICE lines, and accelerate the EV transition - forcing them to raise the ICE prices higher, which will again make their EV offerings look more attractive.

Tesla customers are still a small fraction of the total market, and the big 3 are (correctly, IMHO) much more worried about cannibalizing their own sales than about Tesla. Any car they build that comes close to matching a Tesla will beat their ICE lineup by a mile in driving experience while not having Tesla's handicaps from the dealer association (though it may still be challenged by poor and unmotivated dealers.)

They can only raise prices on their ICE if there is still demand for them. For low volume EV sales, they can cover any losses with ICE sales, but if the flip in EV demand comes sooner than expected, they are in trouble.

What exactly will happen is very much up in the air at this point. There are too many variables.

There are some things Tesla does not do as well as the rest of the car industry. There are also some things Tesla does much better.

Car dealers are a middleman that was once necessary, but today with much better widespread communication, they are not as important a protection for consumers and often cost consumers more. Tesla has the supercharger moat, the GigaFactory moat, and the entire company is 100% behind 1 type of propulsion (whereas other companies have internal factions), and they have a vast lead over the competition.

However Tesla is poor at producing parts, especially for body repairs. Their service center network is vastly overloaded. Build quality varies throughout the quarter as they binge produce and sell at the end of each quarter. And overall their logistics are not as sophisticated as the rest of the industry.

I do think Bob Lutz tends to overlook the advantages and dwell on the disadvantage. From listening to Lutz in the interview I posted above, he prided himself on managing all the aspects of the car company and some of Tesla's mistakes drive him nuts because he would never have done them in the first place.

Ben Sullins of the Teslanomics YouTube channel said something similar about Tesla and logistics recently. He's worked with a lot of companies in the tech world and he is a numbers guy. His career has all been about analyzing data. He made the point that well run companies plan out everything in advance, but Tesla runs from one fire to another, fighting whichever fire is worst today. You reduce the fires by having long term planners looking at everything and planning how to fix the problems before they pop up.

Tim Cook did that for Steve Jobs. Cook is/was the steady hand on the tiller who enabled Jobs to make his vision come true with less drama than it would have been otherwise. I believe SpaceX has a top manager that does that for SpaceX, but Tesla has never had that and they move fast, but they end up having to fight a lot of fires that could have been preventable with better planning.

I've worked in both types of companies and the ones that plan ahead are somewhat more boring overall, but the reduced drama is a big plus and more efficient over the long haul.

Tesla is an amazing company with an amazing product and Elon Musk is probably one of the top industrial geniuses alive today. But neither the company nor the man are perfect. Tesla needs a steady, calm manager who can keep the whole show moving ahead smoothly and finding people like that who can work smoothly with a chaos magnet like Elon (or Jobs) is almost as rare as the high profile geniuses are to begin with.

Nobody is poised to give Tesla any serious competition for at least a couple of years. The absolute best anyone else can hope for is the opinion from the market of "fantastic car, if you can get one" while Tesla cranks out hundreds of thousands of cars. That gives Tesla time to work out the logistical kinks, but they have to for profitability. Lurching from one crisis to another costs a lot of money as well as stresses employees and ticks off customers.
 
I dont think we have the official word on the loss per Bolt. I recall hearing $6000 and $9000. But it likely depends on model and maybe this amount has decreased with the passage of time and a new model year. I suspect Bob keeps going on about loss since he may have some inside info on the Bolt finances.
 
Car dealers are a middleman that was once necessary, but today with much better widespread communication, they are not as important a protection for consumers and often cost consumers more.
Audi's Conventional-looking Electric Crossover Will Remain (Mainly) Hidden From Public View - The Truth About Cars

Does anyone remember how many E-Trons Audi is planning on building? This article also refers to it as "mass market", whereas Tesla selling 50k S and X each are never given a mass market moniker: "Audi’s proceeding cautiously with its mass-market EV."

This next statement makes me think Audi's US chief was interviewed in a state that has already legalized cannabis for recreational use -- I'm going to have to go toke up just to understand what he's saying:
Speaking to Automotive News, Audi of America President Scott Keogh said the electric car isn’t ready for the traditional dealer sales model.
“I think it would be a beautiful world if you can go to a dealer — and we’d like to find that beautiful world — with zero floorplan [expense] and proper, full gross on the car,” said Keogh. “This would be a beautiful state; so let’s go see if we can find this dream state.”

<snicker> And yet, Keogh seems to think the dealers are a huge advantage to them in marketing:
That said, Keogh credits Audi’s dealer network for improving the E-Tron’s chances for success. “The same network that got us to double our sales, and got us to 200,000 units [annually], is going to be the same network that’s going to lead this electric revolution for us,” he said. “And that’s a massive competitive advantage — an onboard and engaged network.”
 
Tim Cook did that for Steve Jobs. Cook is/was the steady hand on the tiller who enabled Jobs to make his vision come true with less drama than it would have been otherwise. I believe SpaceX has a top manager that does that for SpaceX, but Tesla has never had that and they move fast, but they end up having to fight a lot of fires that could have been preventable with better planning.

You are trying to make Tesla into something that it is not. The grass is not greener on the other side of the fence. Apple hasn't seen 80% growth rates since 1981, when its business was two orders of magnitude smaller than Tesla's is today. SpaceX has always been a very stable business in comparison to Tesla. Things break at the pace Tesla is going.
 
If Tesla was racing almost stock Model S and Model 3 I am sure to would make an impression on people who are passionate about cars. The kind of people that influence their friends and family's choices in cars.
You suspect that current Tesla buyers are not passionate about cars?
I suspect a test drive and/or talking to a Tesla owner has by far the biggest impression.
(no racing and Model 3 already #5? and Model S #1 luxury sedan market in US, right?)
I enjoyed my years of following racing - never a reason for my car purchases. Racing as a hobby was too
 
You suspect that current Tesla buyers are not passionate about cars?

It would impress the 99.99% of car enthusiast around the world that are not currently Tesla owners or enthusiast.

In the 50's and 60's the executives at the Big 3 would say win stock car racing on Saturday and move the metal on Monday. They would actually see sales bumps shortly after winning races.

Nowadays the connection is less clear. As emission controls and fuel economy standards move ICE racing tech further and further away from retail ICE tech.

Tesla racing stock powertrains or nearly stock powertrains would move the needle.

And bring the entire EV segment with it.
 
  • Funny
Reactions: Brando
Audi's Conventional-looking Electric Crossover Will Remain (Mainly) Hidden From Public View - The Truth About Cars

Does anyone remember how many E-Trons Audi is planning on building? This article also refers to it as "mass market", whereas Tesla selling 50k S and X each are never given a mass market moniker: "Audi’s proceeding cautiously with its mass-market EV."

This next statement makes me think Audi's US chief was interviewed in a state that has already legalized cannabis for recreational use -- I'm going to have to go toke up just to understand what he's saying:
Speaking to Automotive News, Audi of America President Scott Keogh said the electric car isn’t ready for the traditional dealer sales model.
“I think it would be a beautiful world if you can go to a dealer — and we’d like to find that beautiful world — with zero floorplan [expense] and proper, full gross on the car,” said Keogh. “This would be a beautiful state; so let’s go see if we can find this dream state.”

<snicker> And yet, Keogh seems to think the dealers are a huge advantage to them in marketing:
That said, Keogh credits Audi’s dealer network for improving the E-Tron’s chances for success. “The same network that got us to double our sales, and got us to 200,000 units [annually], is going to be the same network that’s going to lead this electric revolution for us,” he said. “And that’s a massive competitive advantage — an onboard and engaged network.”
idea:
IF Audi put one e-tron on a dealer's lot for free and would Scott Keogh have his zero floor plan "dream state"?
[of course dealer pays Audi when they sell the e-tron]
I guess from Scott Keogh point of view Tesla operates in this "dream state" already, right?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Off Shore
You are trying to make Tesla into something that it is not. The grass is not greener on the other side of the fence. Apple hasn't seen 80% growth rates since 1981, when its business was two orders of magnitude smaller than Tesla's is today. SpaceX has always been a very stable business in comparison to Tesla. Things break at the pace Tesla is going.

Growth is only part of the equation. Having someone good at logistics high up in the organization with influence keeps the chaos at bay in all areas. During Amazon's big growth spurt they were not known for chaos because they had someone good at managing it. Their warehouses are known as sweat shops where workers are pushed to their limits, but they also are laid out end to end for efficiency. Amazon has always been efficient because they have always been good at logistics, even when they were growing at massive rates.

A little over 100 years ago Ford went through a transformation like Tesla is this year. There may have been some chaos, but historians have not noted it. At least nothing I have read commented on any notable chaos.

The US army went from a force smaller than Finland's to one of the largest in history in a few years from the late 1930s to 1944. One of the reasons the US did well in the war was the logistical backbone that kept all the gears turning from bringing new people into the ranks, building the weaponry needed, obtaining the supplies needed, and making sure everything got where it needed to go. US Army units required more supply to stay in the field than any other army at the time. US armor divisions were especially hungry. Yet there were only a few times when supplies ever ran low at the tip of the spear.

All of that was done by masters of logistics who made everything happen. George Marshall was chief of the Army at the time and he is best known for what he did as Secretary of State in the 1950s, but his talents at the top of the Army was a major factor in winning the war. When the war clouds were building, he started keeping a notebook with notes on every officer he met.

He noted what role each officer would be best at if war started. The day after Pearl Harbor he handed the notebook to his chief of staff with orders to slot each person into their best role. He had noted Patton would make a good commander of a division or a corps, but no higher. Patton was already a general at that point. Colonel Eisenhower he identified as a good candidate for a theater commander and Eisenhower was fast tracked past Patton and became his boss. Patton was innovative and creative, Eisenhower was a supremely talented administrator. The former is good in a field commander, the latter is best for running the whole show.

Elon is the spark that makes Tesla innovate, but he needs his impulses tempered by someone who can get things done. At Apple Steve Jobs had all sorts of brilliant ideas, but Tim Cook was the one who made sure all the stores had enough iPhones and that they got built.
 
While the traditional car companies have ICE sales to fall back on, Tesla energy has a strong potential market there that they may be able to exploit soon. The solar roof has been slow to get off the ground and the Powerwall sales have been badly backed up. If they can get that side of the company straightened out soon, that will spread their areas of income better.

The problem with that, at least from what I have read in articles about the subject, is that both the solar roof as well as the Powerwall as products appear to be worse than what the competition has to offer while also being more expensive, thus severely limiting market appeal.
Quite the opposite of Tesla cars, which are (at least for now) better than what the competition offers and at more attractive prices too.
 
The problem with that, at least from what I have read in articles about the subject, is that both the solar roof as well as the Powerwall as products appear to be worse than what the competition has to offer while also being more expensive, thus severely limiting market appeal.
Quite the opposite of Tesla cars, which are (at least for now) better than what the competition offers and at more attractive prices too.

There was a lot of low hanging fruit in the car business nobody was taking that Tesla was able to step in and do. SpaceX was able to step in and do a number of things that were possible, but nobody else was doing becaose rocketry was stuck in the 60s.

Quality of solar products vary, but there aren't the vast, easy gains sitting on the table. The solar roof is innovative from a form factor perspective, but it isn't better in almost every way from other solar tech like Tesla cars are compared to ICE.

I think were Tesla energy has the edge is with larger storage arrays like they have built in Australia and Los Angeles. There they have a price advantage in batteries due to the GigaFactory. They also have some very good battery management firmware they have developed for the cars that will likely help stationary storage systems to last longer than most of the competition.

The Powerwall doesn't appear to be all that much better than other battery systems for the home, though again they may last longer than many.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: AustinPowers