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Tesla BEV Competition Developments
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I mean, if we're going to go there... this podcast on "the top 5 threats to Tesla" starts by addressing the putative threat of "the competition" and it's pretty entertaining... The whole thing screams "über-bull" but I still enjoy listening to it.
bhtooefr
Active Member
Confusing Michigan and Ohio is not likely to go down well in Ohio.My mistake! But at least MI and OH are right next to each other.
(Ohio is still bitter about winning the Toledo War, IMO.)
mblakele
FSD Beta (99)
This story is about a week old, but I don't think it's been discussed. As you read it, you'll note that the author attributes many advantages to EV startups that are also shared by Tesla. There's also a brief mention of Tesla, but I think it wasn't fact-checked very carefully.
China has never mastered internal-combustion engines
Electric cars will be different
China has never mastered internal-combustion engines
Electric cars will be different
[...]
The market is dominated by Chinese incumbents moving from internal-combustion vehicles to evs. But there is also a pack of startups. Nio may be the most famous, but wm is perhaps the most ambitious. It owns and operates all of its factories, and although it said it had delivered only 12,600 cars in 2019 when your correspondent visited in October, it says it will soon have the capacity to produce 200,000 a year in Wenzhou, and that a slightly bigger plant in Huanggang, 630km inland in Hubei province, will make another 300,000 cars a year when it is completed.
[...]
Mr Shen’s focus is on the ev’s battery packs and the power-management systems that distribute electricity around the vehicle. Because the battery pack is the most expensive part of the car, squeezing the same range out of less battery is a competitive advantage; that is what wm’s innovative battery-cell configurations are meant to do. Mr Shen says wm holds 1,200 patents, with the most important ones around the car’s battery, electric motor and control system. That is because such innovations could be reverse-engineered. The software that manages the battery’s thermal properties in a crash, on the other hand, is a complex trade secret.
Mr Shen says he expects the best electric-car companies to start building their own batteries eventually. Those have hitherto been sourced from giant companies like catl, a Chinese firm which holds a large share of the global electric-vehicle-battery market. Big car companies would never source their engines from third parties; integrating them closely into the design and production process improves overall performance. Mr Shen expects electric cars to be no different.
Beside Nio and xpeng, wm’s stiffest competition in China will come from two foreign firms, Tesla and vw. Tesla’s boss, Elon Musk, says the company’s Shanghai gigafactory will be making 1,000 cars a week by the end of 2019; they will mostly be its Model 3, which is both its cheapest car and, at 355,800 yuan ($50,000), still very expensive for the Chinese market. The factory, built in just eight months, is designed to make 500,000 cars a year.
[...]
Even if wm fails, China is set to be a large market for evs long before any other country, and that will benefit the industry as a whole. Because the government demands that all cars sold in China are made with Chinese components, the country will come to host the world’s most important supply chains for electric cars. This opens up the possibility that Chinese supply chains will eventually be used to provide components for the rest of world, as with smartphones.
[...]
The market is dominated by Chinese incumbents moving from internal-combustion vehicles to evs. But there is also a pack of startups. Nio may be the most famous, but wm is perhaps the most ambitious. It owns and operates all of its factories, and although it said it had delivered only 12,600 cars in 2019 when your correspondent visited in October, it says it will soon have the capacity to produce 200,000 a year in Wenzhou, and that a slightly bigger plant in Huanggang, 630km inland in Hubei province, will make another 300,000 cars a year when it is completed.
[...]
Mr Shen’s focus is on the ev’s battery packs and the power-management systems that distribute electricity around the vehicle. Because the battery pack is the most expensive part of the car, squeezing the same range out of less battery is a competitive advantage; that is what wm’s innovative battery-cell configurations are meant to do. Mr Shen says wm holds 1,200 patents, with the most important ones around the car’s battery, electric motor and control system. That is because such innovations could be reverse-engineered. The software that manages the battery’s thermal properties in a crash, on the other hand, is a complex trade secret.
Mr Shen says he expects the best electric-car companies to start building their own batteries eventually. Those have hitherto been sourced from giant companies like catl, a Chinese firm which holds a large share of the global electric-vehicle-battery market. Big car companies would never source their engines from third parties; integrating them closely into the design and production process improves overall performance. Mr Shen expects electric cars to be no different.
Beside Nio and xpeng, wm’s stiffest competition in China will come from two foreign firms, Tesla and vw. Tesla’s boss, Elon Musk, says the company’s Shanghai gigafactory will be making 1,000 cars a week by the end of 2019; they will mostly be its Model 3, which is both its cheapest car and, at 355,800 yuan ($50,000), still very expensive for the Chinese market. The factory, built in just eight months, is designed to make 500,000 cars a year.
[...]
Even if wm fails, China is set to be a large market for evs long before any other country, and that will benefit the industry as a whole. Because the government demands that all cars sold in China are made with Chinese components, the country will come to host the world’s most important supply chains for electric cars. This opens up the possibility that Chinese supply chains will eventually be used to provide components for the rest of world, as with smartphones.
[...]
mblakele
FSD Beta (99)
Here's a deeper look at NIO. Sorry about the clickbait-ish headline.
Cloning Tesla: electric-vehicle wars in China
Cloning Tesla: electric-vehicle wars in China
[...]
Given the precarious circumstances, the Chinese government might be expected to throw nio a lifeline. Instead, it is Tesla that is getting the breaks. On December 30th, the day of nio’s relief rally, the first Model 3s rolled out from Tesla’s Gigafactory in Shanghai, costing a mere $50,000 each. Though work started on the plant less than a year ago, production is already running at about 1,000 cars a week. Days before, the American firm received $1.3bn-worth of funding from Chinese lenders to complete the Shanghai-based factory. Production in China spares Tesla from import tariffs on finished vehicles, and its locally made cars also qualify for subsidies. Its shares have soared to record highs in recent days, though there are still nagging doubts about its ability to increase volumes, margins and cash generation. Perversely, Tesla may even have benefited from China’s trade war with America. The government hopes to portray Tesla’s investment, the first fully foreign-owned car plant in China, as a symbol of its openness.
[...]
For now, though, Tesla is in pole position. In fact, says Mr Dunne, China must already feel like home to Mr Musk. The government’s ev ambitions give Tesla a tailwind that it lacks in America; on January 1st its customers there stopped benefiting from a tax credit. Consumers love luxury-car brands; Tesla’s main competition will be with Germany’s premium carmakers, not Chinese ones. China’s manufacturing prowess will help Tesla overcome the “production hell” it suffered back home. And China may be quicker to encourage autonomous driving than America. [...]
Given the precarious circumstances, the Chinese government might be expected to throw nio a lifeline. Instead, it is Tesla that is getting the breaks. On December 30th, the day of nio’s relief rally, the first Model 3s rolled out from Tesla’s Gigafactory in Shanghai, costing a mere $50,000 each. Though work started on the plant less than a year ago, production is already running at about 1,000 cars a week. Days before, the American firm received $1.3bn-worth of funding from Chinese lenders to complete the Shanghai-based factory. Production in China spares Tesla from import tariffs on finished vehicles, and its locally made cars also qualify for subsidies. Its shares have soared to record highs in recent days, though there are still nagging doubts about its ability to increase volumes, margins and cash generation. Perversely, Tesla may even have benefited from China’s trade war with America. The government hopes to portray Tesla’s investment, the first fully foreign-owned car plant in China, as a symbol of its openness.
[...]
For now, though, Tesla is in pole position. In fact, says Mr Dunne, China must already feel like home to Mr Musk. The government’s ev ambitions give Tesla a tailwind that it lacks in America; on January 1st its customers there stopped benefiting from a tax credit. Consumers love luxury-car brands; Tesla’s main competition will be with Germany’s premium carmakers, not Chinese ones. China’s manufacturing prowess will help Tesla overcome the “production hell” it suffered back home. And China may be quicker to encourage autonomous driving than America. [...]
I know we've heard this rumor before, but now it's hit the mainstream: GM to bring back Hummer as all-electric
GM buys Super Bowl airtime to resurrect an all-electric version of the Hummer, sources say
(I guess we have to hope and pray that the electric range doesn't follow the fuel-efficiency pattern of the old gas version!)
GM buys Super Bowl airtime to resurrect an all-electric version of the Hummer, sources say
(I guess we have to hope and pray that the electric range doesn't follow the fuel-efficiency pattern of the old gas version!)
willow_hiller
Well-Known Member
Nissan announces 2020 Leaf pricing; starts at $31,600 for 40 kWh, $38,200 for 62 kWh - Electrek
Pricing announced for the 2020 Nissan Leaf lineup. Base 62 kWh model starts under $39k.
Pricing announced for the 2020 Nissan Leaf lineup. Base 62 kWh model starts under $39k.
willow_hiller
Well-Known Member
Next gen Chevy Bolt spotted in camo: New Chevrolet Bolt EUV Spy Shots Confirm Design Of Future EV
Looks a bit more CUVish, Chevy is calling it an EUV?
Looks a bit more CUVish, Chevy is calling it an EUV?
If you say so. The design mostly says VW Golf to me so far, though the rear is a little longer.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Good grief, Standard Oil was broken up in 1911.
Texaco bought those battery patents and it was purchased by Chevron. Chevron is one of the successor companies of Standard Oil.
Texaco-Chevron never made any rule about their batteries not being used in EVs.
They said low volume production was not profitable. Any order had to be for a minimum something like 5 GWh to be delivered over 1 year. Toyota did not want to commit to 100k RAV4 EVs per year. No other OEM wanted to make such a large commitment either.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
The Liberal Democratic Party of Japan is married to that idea.
And importing NG to Hydrogen from Australia. I get that is better than being dependent on OPEC.
I have talked to several middle age Japanese people involved in and around the Automotive industry. I keep telling them wouldn't it be better to make all BEVs and fuel them with Japanese Wind/Solar farms? Isn't that better for Japan's national/economic security?
I get blank looks of incredulity.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
My guess is it will have the worst MPGe of any BEV.
And still have less emissions than a Prius Eco when fueled by the California grid.
I know that, but it's tough on dyslexics when the same logos and color schemes are used for two different brand names.
Chevron has managed to hold on to the Standard name and keep it alive. According to this article there is only one Standard station left in California, but there were many of them around Los Angeles when I was a kid:
The Last Standard Oil Company Gas Station in California
The two names are interchangeable in my brain, but I usually only say Chevron. Sometimes I mess up. My dyslexia gets worse when I'm tired.
I misremembered the details:
Patent encumbrance of large automotive NiMH batteries - Wikipedia
Chevron essentially threw up hurdles for people to use NiMH batteries for plug in vehicles. As the above article states the higher energy density and lighter weight of Li-ion batteries may be a bigger reason NiMH batteries didn't make it as the standard for automotive use. The true reason is probably a bit of each.
Ultimately I stand corrected.
Good job Mazda, you managed to make, not one, but two critical errors with your EV program:
- Deciding that smaller batteries are better (in the name of being more green!)
- Tuning your electric drivetrain to feel more like an ICE engine (who wants instant torque??)
At least we got Franz first...
- Deciding that smaller batteries are better (in the name of being more green!)
- Tuning your electric drivetrain to feel more like an ICE engine (who wants instant torque??)
At least we got Franz first...
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SmartElectric
Active Member
It is absolutely true that smaller battery packs like that in my Smart ED have lower total emissions profile when the vehicle is used for a short distance commuting daily driver. Our Tesla is 3x the lifetime emissions profile if used in the way my Smart ED is, but of course, our Tesla is used for the >100 km distance travel needs of our family, and >=3 passengers. Tesla has 140000 km and my Smart ED's total 60000 km over the same period. It will take another few years for the Tesla to approach the emissions profile of the Smart ED, but it will "overtake" the Smart ED in that capacity as we get to 250000 km on the Tesla.
Mazda is absolutely going for a different market segment, one that the Nissan Leaf former dominated, namely, cheap EV that is not designed to be fun to drive. There are millions of commuters who don't need >200 km range, I'm one of them, but I need something fun to drive, thus my rear wheel drive Smart ED. If Smart ED was front wheel drive, I'd never have bought it, just like I didn't buy a Leaf, Focus EV or other FWD BEV.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Not necessarily. The smaller pack will not last as long as the larger pack because it will be discharged at a higher relative C rate and a deeper DOD. A 100 mile pack for example may have one third the emissions of a 300 mile pack but the larger pack will allow more than 3 times the lifetime miles traveled because it's not working as hard as the smaller pack.
SmartElectric
Active Member
Not defending the stupid and non-factual statement Mazda made, I am firmly against that sort of anti-EV rhetoric.
If Mazda manages to sell lots of short range EV's with lower total emissions for short commutes, great!
I doubt Mazda will succeed, Smart failed with the Smart ED due to many factors, not the least of which is people want vehicles much larger than their needs.
My point remains, smaller battery packs (ie lower range) means less materials from production, driving and recycling and was a goal in my purchase of a Smart ED, even though I can afford to be driving a Model 3 performance for my short daily commute.
I don't NEED a Model 3 performance, so I compromised and bought two EV's, one for short commute, the other (Tesla) for everything else.
Our Tesla Model S is absolutely a much larger footprint vs a Smart ED from materials, manufacture, production, driving and recycle at end of life, it's nearly 3x the inputs! I am purely talking about CO2 (lithium, steel, water consumed in initial materials production and other inputs) per km driven.
If Mazda manages to sell lots of short range EV's with lower total emissions for short commutes, great!
I doubt Mazda will succeed, Smart failed with the Smart ED due to many factors, not the least of which is people want vehicles much larger than their needs.
My point remains, smaller battery packs (ie lower range) means less materials from production, driving and recycling and was a goal in my purchase of a Smart ED, even though I can afford to be driving a Model 3 performance for my short daily commute.
I don't NEED a Model 3 performance, so I compromised and bought two EV's, one for short commute, the other (Tesla) for everything else.
Our Tesla Model S is absolutely a much larger footprint vs a Smart ED from materials, manufacture, production, driving and recycle at end of life, it's nearly 3x the inputs! I am purely talking about CO2 (lithium, steel, water consumed in initial materials production and other inputs) per km driven.
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