That just boggles my mind! Are UPS's (Edit: Uninterruptible Power Supply) not allowed in the UK/EU? Because those work automatically.
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Tesla BEV Competition Developments
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That just boggles my mind! Are UPS's (Edit: Uninterruptible Power Supply) not allowed in the UK/EU? Because those work automatically.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Luckily we have automatic switches here. Obviously our opinions are colored by our personal situations but what you see as extremely complicated is fairly straight forward here. Since the US market is far larger than the UK one there is much greater reason for Tesla to use the available technology, especially when other OEM's will offer it.
petit_bateau
Active Member
Appliance UPS's are allowed, provided they are CE-marked and CE-compliant. What you are describing is not available from Tesla as the US-solutions you describe from Tesla are not CE-compliant, not CE-certified and not CE-marked. If it were then Tesla would be selling it.
If you go read even the US threads here on TMC re Powerwall you'll find plenty of US folk caught up in regulatory catch-22 nightmares and still unable to switch on their Powerwalls, or for that matter their Tesla PV. No regulatory system is perfect, they all have their flaws, including the US one(s). Sometimes the itches are in a different place. Heck, most folk in the US still think that UL is the law, and worse still some regulators in the US still write down that UL is the law. It is different here in the UK/EU - which is a bigger market than the USA.
I've dealt with quite a lot of these things over the years all over the world. It is always complex, especially when one is thinking through all the failure cases and who might get hurt from a failure. A lot of people like to put their "want" above the risk to others from a safety failure.
I do not expect to see the true V2G become readily available at large scale in the near future.
One day Tesla will be selling it, complete with CE-marks and all the yada yada. But not until designs have stabilised. I am very much looking forwards to that day.
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Hyundai Motor closes engine development division
S. Korean automaker converted teams for powertrain into EV development units
Hyundai Motor closes engine development division - KED Global
Hyundai Motor Group, South Korea’s top automaker, will stop developing new internal combustion engines in order to accelerate its transformation into an
www.kedglobal.com
Doggydogworld
Active Member
They also reportedly "paused" fuel cell development.Hyundai Motor closes engine development division
S. Korean automaker converted teams for powertrain into EV development units
Hyundai Motor closes engine development division - KED Global
Hyundai Motor Group, South Korea’s top automaker, will stop developing new internal combustion engines in order to accelerate its transformation into anwww.kedglobal.com
Again we see the benefit Tesla has with having a leader who has an actual understanding of physics. So many wasted dollars and engineering hours on this dead end technology.
Gauss Guzzler
Safety Score = 42
To be fair, no one ever thought fuel cells could be used in cars. They were only ever intended to fool politicians.
Before Tesla proved BEVs were a commercially viable product, the mainstream car makers were trying everything they could to prove that either alternatives to ICE were either something that couldn't be made profitably or the public just didn't want them. If fuel cells did work they could have extended ICE technology longer, plus it had the added benefit that the only economically viable option for the near term was making it from natural gas.
To turn the public off BEVs they made them as ugly and/or impractical as possible. They also whined to regulators about how BEVs could not be made economically and nobody was going to be able to for a long time. Tesla was not a threat initially because the Model S and then X were so expensive.
Then the Model 3 came along and shattered their arguments. Now everyone is scrambling to try and catch up to Tesla. It's now becoming proven that fuel cells are a dead end compared to BEVs.
When I studied mechanical engineering we had a professor who had been the head of drive train development at a major car company. He said that the future was hybrid, not pure electric. I asked him about it, to me as a student it seemed that pure electric made sense once technology had improved the batteries enough, but he was 100% convinced that it was not electric but hybrids that was the future. This was around 2012…
Elon, JB et al could see what the rest of the industry couldn’t see. And they really resisted even after Model S which should have ended the debate. It took Tesla market cap to take off and Tesla to become mainstream before they started taking it seriously. And still they are talking about options for customers, collaborations with Nikola etc. Because they still don’t get what Elon and JB got back in 2003.
Elon, JB et al could see what the rest of the industry couldn’t see. And they really resisted even after Model S which should have ended the debate. It took Tesla market cap to take off and Tesla to become mainstream before they started taking it seriously. And still they are talking about options for customers, collaborations with Nikola etc. Because they still don’t get what Elon and JB got back in 2003.
Gauss Guzzler
Safety Score = 42
Well hybrid *is* the future, the near-term future anyway. It will take many decades for the world to transition from gas to electric and hybrids are the best technological solution to the challenges of developing/converting the world's infrastructure, economy, technology, and public opinion.
We're well past the point where hybrids are necessary for that. Any place that has household electric capabilities (on-grid or off-grid) are prime location for electric vehicles.
And for the adventurous, even places without any infrastructure can support EV's! I can haul my Bluetti AC200 and 80lbs of flexible solar panels (eight 100w) to anywhere where there's sunlight and can recharge my car on location - on a good day, I can get about 20 miles of range at my latitude. This is tech that is commercially available NOW.
Gauss Guzzler
Safety Score = 42
I'm not sure if you've ever been outside of Southern California, but much of the rest of the world doesn't have electricity. Go someplace where gasoline is only available in re-purposed coke bottles and tell me how they're going to switch to 100% EV by Friday. Most countries have no usable public electrical system and rely entirely on portable generators as their primary source of electricity.
Heck, go to Beverly Hills or Pasadena and tell me how they're going to switch to EV by tomorrow. Where would they get the batteries? How would they charge them? California's electricity grid is on the brink of collapse today, nevermind other parts of the US where it has already collapsed like Texas and Puerto Rico.
Tesla supplies about 1% of the world's new cars, yet they use *most* of the world's batteries - more than all other car/phone/laptop/etc. makers combined. You seriously think that by Friday the world's battery supply could magically increase 100-fold and that every village in every country could somehow have electricity?
Heck, go to Beverly Hills or Pasadena and tell me how they're going to switch to EV by tomorrow. Where would they get the batteries? How would they charge them? California's electricity grid is on the brink of collapse today, nevermind other parts of the US where it has already collapsed like Texas and Puerto Rico.
Tesla supplies about 1% of the world's new cars, yet they use *most* of the world's batteries - more than all other car/phone/laptop/etc. makers combined. You seriously think that by Friday the world's battery supply could magically increase 100-fold and that every village in every country could somehow have electricity?
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
On the other hand many places like that don't have people commuting to work in their own car on a daily basis. For a place with no infrastructure a solar panel setup could charge multiple scooters for daily use and a few vehicles for occasional longer trips into town. Compare with places that never had conventional phone lines but went straight to cell service.
I don't know if you're following an agenda or truly believe what you wrote, but that level of ignorance doesn't warrant a response. Go troll somewhere else. Or better yet, go visit another country, any country. The rural areas might not have electricity, but most of the populations that drive live where electricity is available. Even the picture you provided (of all those bottled gasoline) shows an electrical line running to one of the rooftops and a lamp on the post of another building.
Gauss Guzzler
Safety Score = 42
I don't completely agree with @Gauss Guzzler but it is going to take a long time for EVs to penetrate to the lowest levels of the economy. There will also be a market for ICE for a long time to come too. I don't know if those will be straight up ICE or hybrids, but fossil fuels have the highest energy density of any realistic vehicle fuel out there. Battery density is going up, but they will never have the energy density of these fuels. It's also easy to carry extra liquid fuel in fuel cans, something that isn't feasible with batteries.
You can carry solar panels, but the energy density of panels is low and it's never going to be great and you don't always get enough sunlight. @Oil4AsphaultOnly said they have 80 lbs of solar panels with 800W capacity. That's an extra 80 lbs of dead weight you're carrying around, plus loss of cargo capacity.
On an extremely sunny day in the middle of summer you might get about 6 KWH of power in a day. That's only about 20 miles of range in a day. With the car parked, and likely very hot.
Driving anywhere deep into the wilderness like some areas of the American west, parts of Canada, the Australian Outback, or other remote places, some kind of ICE is going to be the vehicle of choice for the foreseeable future. Liquid fuels are also going to be the only viable solution for air travel and most shipping application for a long time to come.
@Gauss Guzzler is correct that battery supply is still a major limiting factor and even though a lot of battery factories are being built now, the most optimistic estimates are for getting to 50% EV production in a decade. Building some hybrids would stretch the limited battery supply a bit further.
PHEVs with a bit larger batteries that could handle a typical commute could be an ersatz town EV with the capability to use gasoline on road trips. Jay Leno had a Volt and lived near the NBC studios. He used it to commute to work in his last couple of years on air and he said he stretched one tank of gas for more than a year. A PHEV with a bit more range could cover more commute situations with an ICE as a backup in case a bit more range is needed. Though you are lugging an unused ICE around most of the time, which is a drawback.
You can carry solar panels, but the energy density of panels is low and it's never going to be great and you don't always get enough sunlight. @Oil4AsphaultOnly said they have 80 lbs of solar panels with 800W capacity. That's an extra 80 lbs of dead weight you're carrying around, plus loss of cargo capacity.
On an extremely sunny day in the middle of summer you might get about 6 KWH of power in a day. That's only about 20 miles of range in a day. With the car parked, and likely very hot.
Driving anywhere deep into the wilderness like some areas of the American west, parts of Canada, the Australian Outback, or other remote places, some kind of ICE is going to be the vehicle of choice for the foreseeable future. Liquid fuels are also going to be the only viable solution for air travel and most shipping application for a long time to come.
@Gauss Guzzler is correct that battery supply is still a major limiting factor and even though a lot of battery factories are being built now, the most optimistic estimates are for getting to 50% EV production in a decade. Building some hybrids would stretch the limited battery supply a bit further.
PHEVs with a bit larger batteries that could handle a typical commute could be an ersatz town EV with the capability to use gasoline on road trips. Jay Leno had a Volt and lived near the NBC studios. He used it to commute to work in his last couple of years on air and he said he stretched one tank of gas for more than a year. A PHEV with a bit more range could cover more commute situations with an ICE as a backup in case a bit more range is needed. Though you are lugging an unused ICE around most of the time, which is a drawback.
The solar panels aren't dead weight, since I only pack them in the trunk if I'm going camping. And if I'm camping, they'll be covering the car, so there's no "very hot car" to deal with. But this line of thinking is way off-topic anyway.
Gauss Guzzler
Safety Score = 42
I'm not sure what there is to disagree with. There are no extra batteries available - anywhere in the world. And there won't be anytime soon. There is no extra electricity available anywhere in the world. And there won't be anytime soon. Global oil drilling and production isn't just increasing, it's accelerating. And hybrid vehicles aren't just vastly outselling EV's, the gap is rapidly widening.
Don't misread any of my statements. The world certainly must (and will) convert to fully electric vehicles, but it will not happen tomorrow. What *will* happen tomorrow is more hybrids.
Don't misread any of my statements. The world certainly must (and will) convert to fully electric vehicles, but it will not happen tomorrow. What *will* happen tomorrow is more hybrids.
A study in the UK found that the grid is not really a problem. Every place that can keep the lights on 24/7 has peaking units that idle most of the time and ramp up if demand peaks. If we manage EV charging to encourage people to charge off peak, the peaking units could be run a larger percentage of the day. The study found that the UK could get to 50% EV adoption before more electric capacity was needed. I think I saw it on Fully Charged a couple of years ago.
Gauss Guzzler
Safety Score = 42
Seriously you guys need to get out more if you think that Pasadena and London are representative of the world.
And yes this is one of the many bustling capital cities I have visited with power grids like this @Oil4AsphaultOnly and no, there is no power on those wires except for maybe an hour or two per day.
And yes this is one of the many bustling capital cities I have visited with power grids like this @Oil4AsphaultOnly and no, there is no power on those wires except for maybe an hour or two per day.
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