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#4,401
This demo from ONE is interesting but with a few caveats:
As a proof of concept, however, the prototype pack used in the demonstration was powered by different cells. The capacity of more than 200 kilowatt-hours was provided by high-energy cobalt-nickel cells, while those intended for the Gemini line are still under development.
Click to expand...
www.caranddriver.com

Tesla Model S Goes 752 Miles with a Prototype Battery from a Michigan Startup

This 'proof of concept' was meant to show that very long-range, environmentally sustainable battery packs can exist—and ONE, Inc., is about to start building one.
www.caranddriver.com www.caranddriver.com
 
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#4,406
That's a little odd. Not only was the post with over 100 upvotes deleted, but it seems like the author deleted their Reddit account entirely.

To summarize from memory, they loved the truck, but felt it had downsides as well, such as:

  1. It couldn't DC fast charge higher than 30 kW due to a software bug.
  2. The vehicle was delivered with several components missing.
  3. Advertised software features weren't available yet, like Rivian's version of Sentry Mode.
  4. They felt there were some fit and finish issues like panel gaps.
  5. They constantly experienced phantom breaking while using TACC to the point where they stopped using it. The "Driver+" system could only be engaged on a limited number of roads.
  6. OTA updates would constantly fail to install.
 
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#4,407
Too late to edit my from-memory summary, but it looks like Google cache caught it: r/Rivian - R1T Overview - 2 months later

R1T Overview - 2 months later​


This truck is the best "dumb car" I've ever driven. Period. It's crazy fast, incredibly powerful, but also has enough space to haul five people and almost two weeks' worth of vacation gear.
Below are a lot of complaints, but I can't stress enough how awesome this truck is. The complaints are only meant to paint a realistic picture of my experience - I'd be lying if I said it was all completely perfect.

Range​

We're driving our R1T just as we would any other vehicle - we're not hypermiling (purposefully drafting off of semitrucks, stopping cabin climate, or attempting to drive at slower speeds just for range).
In the city, suburbs, and just around town (in SoCal), we regularly get a range of 220+ miles at 70% SoC, and ~330 miles at 100%. That's usually in "conserve" mode with no A/C, seat heaters, defog, etc.
On our trip to the mountains (~20F, snow, "conserve" mode), we were lucky to get around 240 miles on a full charge on the highway, but we usually charged to ~90%, where we got ~215 miles on the highway. "All-purpose" mode dropped range by ~20 miles. When in the cold, we enabled defog sporadically (climate screen needs work - see software section for some context) but didn't use seat heaters or cabin climate that much.

DC Fast Charging​

  • After ~10 DCFC sessions, the truck just stopped charging past 33 kW. Rivian says they know about the issue (and that it should be patched with a SW update soon), but it really sucked to be at a 350kW EA station pulling just 33 kW. At that rate, it took ~3 hours to get to 90%. The rest of the points below assume this issue is resolved:
  • No plug-and-charge, and you can't filter by EA chargers on the infotainment screen
  • Biggest issue so far: the car doesn't precondition for a charging session - regardless of how you input the station into infotainment. From "cold and dark" to a reasonable charging rate took ~45 mins for the battery to warm up - really sucked at the EA station in the mountains. During preconditioning, the charging rate was stuck at ~25 kW.
  • Max charging rate observed: 205 kW at 8% SoC - lasted for just a few seconds before dropping to ~180kW.
  • Charging curve seems pretty linear - once you hit ~40% SoC, don't expect any more than 150kW. Rate continues dropping until ~40kW at ~85% SoC.
  • From 10% SoC, it takes ~40 mins to charge to 80%, ~1.5 hours to charge to 100%

Build Quality​

Unless you're looking for issues, the car is fantastic. However, as soon as someone points QC issues out, they're pretty difficult to not notice. There are panel gap issues, panel misalignment issues, trim peeling and paint issues, as well as various other fit and finish issues - with no shortage of small tweaks to be made.
Comparing to Tesla, this seems on-par with their perceived QC issues. However, I'll give them a pass for now. Rivian is trying really hard to ramp production, and that comes with some sacrifices.
We also took delivery of the truck with some missing components (no camp speaker, floor mats, etc) - supposedly we'll get them as parts shortages ease.
Other than the above minor fit-and-finish issues, the truck itself is rock-solid. No complaints about actual powertrain/mechanical build quality. Handled excellently in snow, rain, high wind, and ice.

Rivian Service​

Roadside and Service both have excellent people manning the phones. They're all friendly, responsive, and quick to help. Service itself is kinda slow (at least right now). All of our trim/fit-and-finish issues are going to be fixed in about a month because Service is currently overloaded with deliveries.

Software​

Oh boy...here we go. The software itself is just "OK". Compared to a legacy OEM's software, it's pretty good - but compared to Tesla, it leaves a lot to be desired. We're on software version 2021.45.x, and were previously on 2021.25.x. 2021.49.2 is available to install, but failed after ~30 mins.
I've seen A LOT of bugs get fixed via OTA updates. No new features, but bugs are being patched left and right - and that's great.
There are a ton of complaints and features that are needed, but here are the big ones:
  • Navigation takes the weirdest paths and is just generally kinda bad. Haven't seen any advancements with OTA updates in this regard
  • There is no way to see tire pressures - even though you can get a warning telling you to inflate "a tire" to 48psi.
  • There's no trip odometer or any info about driving perfomance/efficiency or anything to that extent.
  • The manual regularly fails to launch - either wait 5 mins or reboot the displays to fix
    • Apps in general sometimes take a while to come up
  • Climate control in general needs a lot of work.
    • Climate randomly turns on in random zones
    • Can't control defog intensity - it's either on full blast or off.
    • Climate system relies on outside temp to determine heating vs cooling. If it's 30F outside, but 80F in the cabin, it'll turn on the heater when set to any temp above 30F.
  • There's a noticeable lag in some physical controls:
    • unlocking/locking can randomly take up to 10 seconds to unlock (with the fob)
    • rolling up and down the windows has a strange lag to it (always)
    • pedestrian warning system can sometimes take a few moments to turn on once moving
  • The app has so much blank space. Right now, all you can do is the following:
    • lock/unlock (relatively quick now, still prefer to use the fob)
    • check range/SoC
    • check/set cabin temp
    • while charging: view charging status and curve (but with no legend or axis labels)
    • request/contact service
    • get current GPS coordinates of vehicle
  • Alexa voice commands + road noise = bad speech-to-text (and therefore a suboptimal Alexa experience)

Phantom Drain​

In the cold: left for four days, lost ~70 miles of range in freezing temps (SoC dropped ~20%). The car supposedly wasn't conditioning the battery during this time, and we only connected to it once via the app when we were ready to leave. Gear Guard was on, and recorded 2000+ 30s events (all cameras recording, so around 11k videos).
Elsewhere: left for three days in 40F-50F weather, lost ~50 miles of range (SoC dropped ~15%). Did not connect via app. Gear Guard was off.
In the garage: drops ~5 miles/day in LA weather with Gear Guard off and no app connections.

Driver+ and TACC​

In the daytime, Driver+ and TACC work alright. Phantom braking is very common (especially under underpasses and on strangely patched parts of the interstate).
During the night, Driver+ has issues engaging. It'll flash available for a few moments, but then disappear seemingly inexplicably. Once engaged, it works fine. They both seem to work as well at night as they do during the day.
It's a shame Driver+ isn't available on more roads (state routes, for example), but TACC is always available. We've taken to just driving manually because of the phantom braking - but hopefully Driver+ will improve in the future!

Rivian Insurance​

It's still in its infancy - most things still need to be done over the phone, and it doesn't (yet) auto-deduct my monthly premium. Rates (for this truck only) are far better than 3rd party insurance, but I guess that's to be expected. Services provided through Nationwide.

Misc​

Gear Guard records so many videos! Every event lasts 30s and records and stores all five camera angles, even if nothing moved in four of the camera views. Gets kind of annoying, but it's easy enough to delete all the videos if the truck seems fine when we get back to it.
Could not figure out how to get the air compressor to work. Supposedly it needs to detect some pressure in order to activate, but that doesn't really help us when we're trying to inflate tubes or inflatable kayaks.
No auto high beams
Auto wipers work well in the daytime and alright at night (needs some manual triggers)
Rear display is still locked. Hopefully it gets unlocked in a future update!
The seats are incredibly comfortable - no complaints whatsoever.
No homelink :(
No remote Gear Guard video viewing or alerts - which is fine, but just something I'd like to have.
The frunk open/close button is offset to the left just a little - I can never find it on my first try. It'd be easier to find if it were in the middle of the fascia.

Summary​

This truck is just...awesome. Mechanically, it's rock-solid. QC and software need a lot of work, but bugs are already being squashed via OTA updates. Overall - fantastic car, would recommend when major software issues are fixed.

Just as I finished writing this, we received 2021.49.2. It failed to install, but release notes mention fixing a few of my complaints above (namely defog controls and some app launch/transition issues).
Click to expand...
 
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#4,408
willow_hiller said:
Too late to edit my from-memory summary, but it looks like Google cache caught it: r/Rivian - R1T Overview - 2 months later
Click to expand...
All told that doesn't sound like the end of the world for a brand new company and vehicle. I'd be surprised if the majority of the software issues weren't fixed in a relatively short space of time as they sound pretty straight forward.
 
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#4,409
Accident said:
Here's a summary from reddit:

  • Specs: <100kWh usable battery, >900V system voltage, >6mi/kWh energy consumption, 0.17 cd value, 110in wheelbase, ~3858lbs gross vehicle weight, > 620mi range on a single charge
  • The electric drivetrain outputs 150kW (201 horsepower) and achieves 95% efficiency from the battery energy to the wheels. (The power and efficiency numbers point to use of an axial flux motor, as developed by YASA which was acquired by MB.)
  • The battery has an energy density close to 400 Wh/l. It has almost the same amount of energy as the EQS but is half the size and 30% lighter, so it can fit into a compact car.
  • "The substantial increase in energy density comes in part from significant progress in the chemistry of the anodes. Their higher silicon content and advanced composition mean they can hold considerably more energy than commonly used anodes. Another feature that contributed to the impressive energy density is the high level of integration in the battery pack. This platform, developed jointly by Mercedes-Benz R&D and HPP, created more room for cells and helped reduce the overall weight. The separate compartment for the electrical and electronic (EE) components, called the OneBox, likewise made more room for cells, with added benefits for installation and removal. The OneBox also incorporates novel safety devices with energy efficient operations that consume significantly less energy than the equivalent component in a production EV."
  • "Several more aspects of the battery design add to its exceptional efficiency. For instance, its lightweight lid was engineered jointly by Mercedes-AMG HPP and their chassis partners at Mercedes-Grand Prix. The lid is made from a unique, sustainable composite material derived from sugar-cane waste, reinforced with carbon fiber, as used in Formula 1. The battery also features active cell balancing, which means drawing the energy evenly from the cells while the car is driving – in effect, giving it greater stamina. Overall, the battery weighs around 1,091 lbs, including the OneBox."
  • "The cooling plate is installed in the vehicle floor, enabling it to take advantage of the air flowing along the underside of the VISION EQXX. This is the most aerodynamically efficient way of keeping the electric drive unit cool under normal conditions, allowing the vehicle to gain about 20 kilometers (12 miles) of range in the most aerodynamic mode."
  • The electric system that powers many of the ancillaries in the VISION EQXX draws additional energy from 117 solar cells on the roof. It was developed in collaboration with the Fraunhofer Institute for Solar Energy Systems ISE – Europe's largest solar energy research institute. The net result of reducing the energy drain on the high-voltage system is an increase in range. On a single day and under ideal conditions, this can add up to 25 km (15 miles) of range on long-distance journeys. The solar energy is stored in a lightweight lithium-iron-phosphate battery, which supplies a climate blower, the lights, the infotainment system and other ancillaries."
  • There is an active rear diffuser that deploys at higher speeds. It also had to weigh next-to-nothing and instantly retract in event of a rear-ender.
  • "The VISION EQXX has a number of less visually obvious, but equally important, active and passive aerodynamic details, such as its small frontal area. It is actually less than that of today's CLA or even the vehicles from smart. And how many would notice that the rear track is 2 inches less than at the front?"
  • "Currently the largest aluminum structural casting at Mercedes-Benz, BIONEQXX is the major structural component at the rear end of the VISION EQXX – the rear floor. The development engineers sought to use material only where necessary for structural function, i.e. where loads are exerted. Where there is no load there is no need for material. The resulting one-part casting has a web-like appearance with gaps where there is no need for structural elements." Gaps are filled with UBQ material, a plastic substitute made from landfill materials. "The resulting part indicates that this innovative engineering approach has the potential to achieve weight savings of between 15 and 20% compared to a conventionally produced component."
  • Large aluminum castings with a web-like appearance are also used in the damper domes which accommodate the suspension components at the front of the car. They contribute to keeping weight to a minimum, saving around 9 lbs compared with conventional pressed domes.
  • The MS1500 ultra-high strength martensitic has exceptional strength that offers excellent occupant protection in the event of a crash, while keeping weight to a minimum.
  • "The doors of the VISION EQXX are made from a hybrid of CFRP and GFRP (carbon- and glass-fiber reinforced plastics) components with aluminum reinforcements. As well as the weight benefits, this design also achieves a careful balance of stiffness and ductility in the event of a crash. Meanwhile, a new polyamide foam reinforces the lower edge of the door and optimizes energy absorption in a side-on collision."
  • "On the chassis, aluminum brake discs reduce the mass significantly compared with cast steel discs. As well as being completely corrosion-free, this brake system designed by Mercedes-Benz Advanced Engineering also reduces brake dust emissions by up to 90% thanks to an innovative coating. Meanwhile, new advanced glass-fiber-reinforced plastic springs developed in partnership with Rheinmetall Automotive remove further weight compared with conventional coil springs."
  • The concept was developed in only 18 months through strong simulation tools and agile collaborative processes.
Click to expand...
There's some clever ideas in this list - it will be interesting to see how many make it through to finished production. I wonder if Tesla could use any of them regarding the solutions to reducing body weight.
 
#4,410
petit_bateau said:
...

On the vehicle side, ...
Click to expand...
I agree with you completely. The only aspect I offer is one you left out completely; the vast inner city BEV revolution now well advanced in much of Europe, China and some other places. I offer a few examples:
The 'large' ones:
Offerings from several Stellantis brands, VAG, Daimler Benz, Ford and others already are growing rapidly but nearly invisibly, not least because inner cities are prohibiting ICE. Note My DHL clip is for the US! Then count the Amazon self-funded ones and soon many more. This sector even has reached formerly inhospitable places as Brazil where major supermarket chains and local service vans are rapidly adopting BEV, led by BYD at the moment.
The 'tiny' ones:
1641648386221.png

1641648566744.png
.
I show the French La Post ones mostly because those are already deployed widely and because I personally have seen many in action.
Now the French have built on the Renault Twingo and Citroën Ami "quadricules" to move to more industrialized solutions like the Bus:
www.largus.fr

XBus. Le quadricycle électrique modulaire débarque en France en 2022

Le monde du quadricycle lourd accueille un nouvel acteur : Electricbrands. Cette marque allemande a développé un véhicule léger 100 % électrique et modulaire qu'elle commercialisera en France dès l'année prochaine. Le carnet de commandes est déjà ouvert et le ticket d'entrée, fixé à 18 414 €.
www.largus.fr www.largus.fr

The Chinese do dominate these markets today with the Indians trying to catch up. The French examples, Italian ones and others have been driven by ancient city center city center delivery functions that now cannot be served with ICE.

It seems to me that this entire category has been driving, almost invisibly, a massive popularization of urban and suburban light commercial EV's.
FWIW, I have photos of these tiny vehicles from 2019 in several Italian, Croatian, Slovenian cities. Because this trend is now reaching even Rio de Janeiro (I had a wine delivery two days ago via a tiny BEV and was too shocked to take a photo.)

As this happens we'll be quite surprised to see just how pervasive BEV adoption is going to be within the next couple of years. So whence come the batteries?
A huge portion fo those applications can and do use lead acid batteries. They've more akin to golf carts than they are traditional cars. Hence bicycle intensive places are already full of electric bikes. That includes lots of bike messengers in 'motoboy' mad markets, including Brazil.

How can we have ignored this massive market? Easy, they aren't real cars. Tesla will never treat this market at all. But...this will act to accelerate every other market.
 
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#4,411
Accident said:
Here's a summary from reddit:

  • Specs: <100kWh usable battery, >900V system voltage, >6mi/kWh energy consumption, 0.17 cd value, 110in wheelbase, ~3858lbs gross vehicle weight, > 620mi range on a single charge
  • The electric drivetrain outputs 150kW (201 horsepower) and achieves 95% efficiency from the battery energy to the wheels. (The power and efficiency numbers point to use of an axial flux motor, as developed by YASA which was acquired by MB.)
  • The battery has an energy density close to 400 Wh/l. It has almost the same amount of energy as the EQS but is half the size and 30% lighter, so it can fit into a compact car.
  • "The substantial increase in energy density comes in part from significant progress in the chemistry of the anodes. Their higher silicon content and advanced composition mean they can hold considerably more energy than commonly used anodes. Another feature that contributed to the impressive energy density is the high level of integration in the battery pack. This platform, developed jointly by Mercedes-Benz R&D and HPP, created more room for cells and helped reduce the overall weight. The separate compartment for the electrical and electronic (EE) components, called the OneBox, likewise made more room for cells, with added benefits for installation and removal. The OneBox also incorporates novel safety devices with energy efficient operations that consume significantly less energy than the equivalent component in a production EV."
  • "Several more aspects of the battery design add to its exceptional efficiency. For instance, its lightweight lid was engineered jointly by Mercedes-AMG HPP and their chassis partners at Mercedes-Grand Prix. The lid is made from a unique, sustainable composite material derived from sugar-cane waste, reinforced with carbon fiber, as used in Formula 1. The battery also features active cell balancing, which means drawing the energy evenly from the cells while the car is driving – in effect, giving it greater stamina. Overall, the battery weighs around 1,091 lbs, including the OneBox."
  • "The cooling plate is installed in the vehicle floor, enabling it to take advantage of the air flowing along the underside of the VISION EQXX. This is the most aerodynamically efficient way of keeping the electric drive unit cool under normal conditions, allowing the vehicle to gain about 20 kilometers (12 miles) of range in the most aerodynamic mode."
  • The electric system that powers many of the ancillaries in the VISION EQXX draws additional energy from 117 solar cells on the roof. It was developed in collaboration with the Fraunhofer Institute for Solar Energy Systems ISE – Europe's largest solar energy research institute. The net result of reducing the energy drain on the high-voltage system is an increase in range. On a single day and under ideal conditions, this can add up to 25 km (15 miles) of range on long-distance journeys. The solar energy is stored in a lightweight lithium-iron-phosphate battery, which supplies a climate blower, the lights, the infotainment system and other ancillaries."
  • There is an active rear diffuser that deploys at higher speeds. It also had to weigh next-to-nothing and instantly retract in event of a rear-ender.
  • "The VISION EQXX has a number of less visually obvious, but equally important, active and passive aerodynamic details, such as its small frontal area. It is actually less than that of today's CLA or even the vehicles from smart. And how many would notice that the rear track is 2 inches less than at the front?"
  • "Currently the largest aluminum structural casting at Mercedes-Benz, BIONEQXX is the major structural component at the rear end of the VISION EQXX – the rear floor. The development engineers sought to use material only where necessary for structural function, i.e. where loads are exerted. Where there is no load there is no need for material. The resulting one-part casting has a web-like appearance with gaps where there is no need for structural elements." Gaps are filled with UBQ material, a plastic substitute made from landfill materials. "The resulting part indicates that this innovative engineering approach has the potential to achieve weight savings of between 15 and 20% compared to a conventionally produced component."
  • Large aluminum castings with a web-like appearance are also used in the damper domes which accommodate the suspension components at the front of the car. They contribute to keeping weight to a minimum, saving around 9 lbs compared with conventional pressed domes.
  • The MS1500 ultra-high strength martensitic has exceptional strength that offers excellent occupant protection in the event of a crash, while keeping weight to a minimum.
  • "The doors of the VISION EQXX are made from a hybrid of CFRP and GFRP (carbon- and glass-fiber reinforced plastics) components with aluminum reinforcements. As well as the weight benefits, this design also achieves a careful balance of stiffness and ductility in the event of a crash. Meanwhile, a new polyamide foam reinforces the lower edge of the door and optimizes energy absorption in a side-on collision."
  • "On the chassis, aluminum brake discs reduce the mass significantly compared with cast steel discs. As well as being completely corrosion-free, this brake system designed by Mercedes-Benz Advanced Engineering also reduces brake dust emissions by up to 90% thanks to an innovative coating. Meanwhile, new advanced glass-fiber-reinforced plastic springs developed in partnership with Rheinmetall Automotive remove further weight compared with conventional coil springs."
  • The concept was developed in only 18 months through strong simulation tools and agile collaborative processes.
Click to expand...
Was reminded of this very old post:

Why would a commercial entity like Apple produce a concept product? Apple is likely generating more concept products and visions than any other technology company for internal use. When Apple wanted to get into retail stores, for example, Jobs had Ron Johson build a fully-functioning, real-size prototype and tore it down at the last minute to rebuild a new one. Why didn’t Apple release the “concept store” to the then-deeply-skeptical press in order to “demonstrate visionary leadership”? In a similar situation Microsoft likely would have.

Product design, above all, is a bet. Apple understands this better than any other company. In iPhone: The bet Steve Jobs didn’t decline, I explained just what a huge bet the iPhone project was to Apple in 2005. It was a bet-the-company kind of bet. One that Nokia, which has sold hundreds of millions of phones over many years, never took. Neither did Microsoft. They would just as well release annual concept products to the public in order not to go through the pain of taking a bet.

Apple bet the company to single handedly change the industrial design of mobile devices, how we interact with them, the balance between carriers and manufacturers, mobile application vending, etc. Indeed, it simply redefined what a mobile device is to become. Apple did this not with a concept product, but by betting its own billions on a shipping product. This, of course, is nothing new to the company that also gave us Apple II, Macintosh, iMac and iPod…all without concept products.

Doesn’t Apple get it? Aren’t concept products the ultimate sign of getting and shaping the future?

Real artists ship, dabblers create concept products

Pretenders don’t quite understand that design is born of constraints. Real-life constraints, be they tangible or cognitive: Battery-life impacts every other aspect of the iPhone design — hardware and software alike. Screen resolution affects font, icon and UI design. The thickness of a fingertip limits direct, gestural manipulation of on-screen objects. Lack of a physical keyboard and WIMP controls create an unfamiliar mental map of the device. The iPhone design is a bet that solutions to constraints like these can be seamlessly molded into a unified product that will sell. Not a concept. Not a vision. A product that sells.

It turns out that when capable designers are given real constraintsfor real products they can end up creating great results. In Apple’s case, groundbreaking products like the iMac, the iPod and the iPhone. Constraints have a wonderful way of focusing the mind on the fundamentals, whereas concept products can often have the opposite affect.

Concept products are like essays, musings in 3D. They are incomplete promises. Shipping products, by contrast, are brutally honest deliveries. You get what’s delivered. They live and die by their own design constraints. To the extent they are successful, they do advance the art and science of design and manufacturing by exposing the balance between fantasy and capability.


I bolded some parts to highlight that Elon is a betting man, willing to bet the company. That’s why Tesla succeeded. Legacy companies are so risk adverse that they would rather go bankrupt slowly than risk going bankrupt quickly with a possibility to survive. This post could have been written about Tesla. What concepts have Tesla done and not followed through? Sure some products have been delayed as their growth have consumed all batteries, but do we really think Roadster2, Teslabot etc will never happen?
 
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#4,415
This may lesson the chance India makes concessions on import tariffs on Teslas.

www.reuters.com

Mercedes-Benz to assemble flagship electric sedan in India

Luxury carmaker Mercedes-Benz plans to start assembling the electric version of its flagship S-Class sedan, the EQS, in India, the head of the company's local unit said, part of a broader strategy to electrify its portfolio in the country.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
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