Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla BEV Competition Developments

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
So... you're calling Tesla out on inability to execute and ramp up. And yet, you take at face value Audi's years of EV press releases, and the recent other German makes' published "intentions" of producing EVs. One could also interpret that the German makes have an even worse "inability to execute and ramp up". Forget ramp up, how about producing an actual working car?
.

Do you think the upcoming Hyundai Ioniq or the Chevy Bolt are also paper tigers?

As usual, this forum is awfully quiet when there's another credible long-range EV announced - and keep in mind the Ioniq is quite close to reveal (January 2016 in Korea, just a month away):

Hyundai teases Ioniq, its upcoming Prius competitor | The Verge

As for Audi, their EV SUV will arrive by 2018. Don't focus on just one competitor. There will be dozens of PHEVs and EVs to choose from by 2016-2020. The Bolt and Ioniq are just among the first two long-range competitors.

That's a big difference to the Model S and X introductions. There will be tons of competition to the Model3 - some of which hits the market 1-2 years before the Model3 is ready to go on sale.
 
Do you think the upcoming Hyundai Ioniq or the Chevy Bolt are also paper tigers?

As usual, this forum is awfully quiet when there's another credible long-range EV announced - and keep in mind the Ioniq is quite close to reveal (January 2016 in Korea, just a month away):

Hyundai teases Ioniq, its upcoming Prius competitor | The Verge

As for Audi, their EV SUV will arrive by 2018. Don't focus on just one competitor. There will be dozens of PHEVs and EVs to choose from by 2016-2020. The Bolt and Ioniq are just among the first two long-range competitors.

That's a big difference to the Model S and X introductions. There will be tons of competition to the Model3 - some of which hits the market 1-2 years before the Model3 is ready to go on sale.
Per your "awfully quiet" remark, you just said the same thing in another thread http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/40728-Chevy-Bolt-200-mile-range-for-30k-base-price-%28after-incentive%29/page94?p=1269464#post1269464

I commented on it there so I won't do it here. But it seems you are cross-posting deliberately, was that your intention?
 
tftf, I'm still waiting for those links about LG's 35GWh battery plant in 2020, you talk about.

Can I see them?
Please?

BYD and Samsung have each announced 30-35 GWh for 2020 if demand increases. That's of course on par with Tesla's cell level output (for each of them).

I wrote that LG Chem will likely even need more than that given their long EV battery customer list (especially if Nissan decides to switch out NEC for a LG Chem license at its AESC JV, we don't know yet, partner Renault already uses LG Chem).
 
BYD and Samsung have each announced 30-35 GWh for 2020 if demand increases. That's of course on par with Tesla's cell level output (for each of them).
35 GWh is the Gigafactory production alone. Tesla will also have access to most of Panasonics cell production in Japan. Judging by Tesla's plan to make 50 GWh of battery packs at the Gigafactory (yet only 35 GWh of cells), the production in Japan should be an additional 15 GWh.
 
BYD and Samsung have each announced 30-35 GWh for 2020 if demand increases. That's of course on par with Tesla's cell level output (for each of them).

I wrote that LG Chem will likely even need more than that given their long EV battery customer list (especially if Nissan decides to switch out NEC for a LG Chem license at its AESC JV, we don't know yet, partner Renault already uses LG Chem).
Key point is "if demand increases". They have not started construction right now. Once again you are comparing with Tesla which already started construction.
 
BYD and Samsung have each announced 30-35 GWh for 2020 if demand increases. That's of course on par with Tesla's cell level output (for each of them).

I wrote that LG Chem will likely even need more than that given their long EV battery customer list (especially if Nissan decides to switch out NEC for a LG Chem license at its AESC JV, we don't know yet, partner Renault already uses LG Chem).


again they sold to whom? ur mom ?
 
BYD and Samsung have each announced 30-35 GWh for 2020 if demand increases. That's of course on par with Tesla's cell level output (for each of them).

I wrote that LG Chem will likely even need more than that given their long EV battery customer list (especially if Nissan decides to switch out NEC for a LG Chem license at its AESC JV, we don't know yet, partner Renault already uses LG Chem).

How many percent of these production capabilities have they started building or for that matter investing in? Is it more or less than the 14% of the Tesla/Samsung Gigafactory you claim they've constructed to date?
 
35 GWh is the Gigafactory production alone. Tesla will also have access to most of Panasonics cell production in Japan. Judging by Tesla's plan to make 50 GWh of battery packs at the Gigafactory (yet only 35 GWh of cells), the production in Japan should be an additional 15 GWh.

At what prices? Wasn't the whole motivation behind the Gigafactory to bring battery prices down? Of course the plants from Panasonic Japan can continue to pump out cells, but I highly doubt these are cost-competitive for mass-market cars (and if Tesla changes the size of its cylindrical cells in Nevada that complicates things further).
 
At what prices? Wasn't the whole motivation behind the Gigafactory to bring battery prices down? Of course the production from Panasonic Japan can continue to pump out cells, but I highly doubt these are cost-competitive for mass-market cars (and if Tesla changes the size of its cell in Nevada that complicates things further).

... because it would be super hard for Panasonic to change the size of the cells they build, for their largest customer?

... because Panasonic hasn't been reaping the benefits of economics of scale, learnt a lot of things, developed their production process further etc. after having built enormous amounts of batteries for Tesla since 2012?

I'm sorry but for a guy who claims to have access to tales from the future I would expect a bit more imagination.
 
again they sold to whom? ur mom ?

A very insightful contribution.

- - - Updated - - -

... because it would be super hard for Panasonic to change the size of the cells they build, for their largest customer?

... because Panasonic hasn't been reaping the benefits of economics of scale, learnt a lot of things, developed their production process further etc. after having built enormous amounts of batteries for Tesla since 2012?

I'm sorry but for a guy who claims to have access to tales from the future I would expect a bit more imagination.

Imagination isn't the problem, investments and ROI for these changes are the issue. If Panasonic completely upgrades their existing plants in Japan, this will again cost them billions. Does this make sense when they build out the GF at the same time (which currently is well below its total planned size, see GF thread for details)?
 
At what prices? Wasn't the whole motivation behind the Gigafactory to bring battery prices down? Of course the production from Panasonic Japan can continue to pump out cells, but I highly doubt these are cost-competitive for mass-market cars (and if Tesla changes the size of its cell in Nevada that complicates things further).
The cells made in Japan will be more expensive, but the cell costs will be averaged to a degree. If I'm not mistaken, one of the provisions for getting Panasonic on board with building the Gigafactory was long term deals for the Japanese cells. Also, the different factories don't have to be making the same cells for the same products, so they will have varying price sensitivities.

The Gigafactory will likely be making the new ~20700 cell format, yet there will still be need for 18650 cells to support the Model S/X, Roadster and early power packs. Some production capacity may also be allocated to initial production of new cell chemistries and the like. If the cells made at the Gigafactory have 300 Wh/kg, a factory in Japan could be making a new 350 Wh/kg cell chemistry at a higher price, and then Tesla could turn around and charge a significant premium for a 115 kWh pack upgrade over a 100 kWh pack.

There are all sorts of ways to make the economics work, so I'm sure Tesla and Panasonic will be able to make their cooperation work.
 
A very insightful contribution.

- - - Updated - - -



Imagination isn't the problem, investments and ROI for these changes are the issue. If Panasonic completely upgrades their existing plants in Japan, this will again cost them billions. Does this make sense when they build out the GF at the same time (which currently is well below its total planned size, see GF thread for details)?

Yes, of course you're right. If they were to switch from 18650 to 20700 format naturally they'd have to tear the factory to the ground and then build a new one on the site, and halt production for at least a year. After all the cell would be 2 mm wider in diameter and 5 mm longer...
 
BYD and Samsung have each announced 30-35 GWh for 2020 if demand increases. That's of course on par with Tesla's cell level output (for each of them).

I wrote that LG Chem will likely even need more than that given their long EV battery customer list (especially if Nissan decides to switch out NEC for a LG Chem license at its AESC JV, we don't know yet, partner Renault already uses LG Chem).

if demand increases? So no location, no finances, no construction and permits yet?
This is one dream competitor to have indeed. The race is already over. For lg.
 
Tesla is not a business that is about making money. Making money is just a consequence of achieving the company goals. That is why Tesla is spending every extra dime they have on growth. That is also why Tesla does not cut corners. This confounds most institutional investors and a lot of businessmen as well. You follow those people up with the ones that think that Tesla is just a big scam designed to bilk someone out of their money somehow. Meanwhile Tesla will keep trying to build the best car in the world and keep confusing outsiders. Doesn't any of these people read Tesla's Mission Statement?

I think this is an overly romanticized view of Tesla and would be news to some shareholders. Of course they are a business that is about making money. That is why the market has given them a $30,000,000,000.00+ market cap. Their actions towards the end of each quarter where they race to get cars delivered sometimes cutting corners on the interim (next Gen seats come to mind), dropping prices on inventory cars, etc. to make numbers shows they are about profit and in a sense are a slave to Wall Street as all public companies are. I applaud them as they need to be or they will not be around for the long haul.
 
There will be dozens of PHEVs and EVs to choose from by 2016-2020.

I really wished that. I really would. I fear it won't happen. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see any serious efforts despite Tesla, the Leaf, the i3.

The issue is, whenever I talk to anyone in Germany. Really anyone who is somewhat connected to the car industry - none of them seems to believe that electric cars will make any dent in the future. It is super frustrating and upsetting but that's been my experience. All their plug-in stuff is ONLY done to get around fleet CO2 emissions and all their electric endeavours are "to satisfy those of those paleao dieting, green hippies in CA". I would love to be wrong. And I have a hope that over time, I will be wrong. But German car engineers are amongst the most change averse and conservative people I know.
 
I really wished that. I really would. I fear it won't happen. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see any serious efforts despite Tesla, the Leaf, the i3.

The issue is, whenever I talk to anyone in Germany. Really anyone who is somewhat connected to the car industry - none of them seems to believe that electric cars will make any dent in the future. It is super frustrating and upsetting but that's been my experience. All their plug-in stuff is ONLY done to get around fleet CO2 emissions and all their electric endeavours are "to satisfy those of those paleao dieting, green hippies in CA". I would love to be wrong. And I have a hope that over time, I will be wrong. But German car engineers are amongst the most change averse and conservative people I know.

If oil prices remain depressed I am inclined to agree with you. I just do not think there is going to be sustained consumer demand for BEV's with gas prices as low as they are. I think we will see how the market reacts to the mid-ranged consumer oriented cars that will be out sooner, such as the Bolt, next Gen Leaf and i3. I think that Fuels cells will be dead before they really make it out of the gate. If oil shoots up to $100+ it is a whole new game. Sadly, gas consumers have short memories.
 
I would love to see your economic theory why this is the case.

More competition (some of which hits the market 1-2 years before the Model3 is ready) is good for Tesla? Economies of scale at LG or Samsung are good for Tesla and its giant battery plant?

TSLA bulls should make up their mind: It's either "Tesla is years ahead and no one else is serious about EVs, except for crappy compliance cars" or "everybody offering longer-range, dedicated EVs is good for Tesla". But it can't be both.

PS: I obviously subscribe to neither theory. More EVs may be good for car consumers, but will lead to lower margins for producers, especially in the incredibly competitive $30-50k (upper) mass-market segment.

I see many places where the competition is likely to make misteps of miss something with their long range EVs. Tesla is the only company that has made a production, long range BEV thus far, and they have worked out the kinks. I strongly suspect the upper management in the big car companies think long range travel issues have largely been sorted because the CCS and CHaDamo standards are out there and they have a high power version as part of the spec. It looks like the car companies are trying to avoid going into the energy delivery business like Tesla has done and I think the first year of their long range BEV will be plagued with stories of problems charging on the road, while many news stories will be contrasting these problems with Tesla's solution.

Added to that, all of these new BEVs have target production numbers that are fairly low and I don't think their battery suppliers can increase production quickly to meet demand for a 100K+ BEV right now. Tesla is putting in the infrastructure to build 500,000 Model 3s a year. Even if the Bolt turns out to be a highly popular car, Chevy may not be able to make enough of them and will lose sales to Tesla who will have the capacity.

Tesla will also be able to make batteries cheaper than anyone else once the Gigafactory is up and running. A lot of money and time is lost in the car business building components in remote locations and sending them around the world. Elon Musk, who is first and foremost a numbers guy, has run the numbers and figured that it's ultimately a lot cheaper to build batteries in the US with higher labor costs if everything is done in one place and the trip from the battery plant to final production factory is short.

Tesla also has a reputation among electric cars like Hewlett Packard used to have in most of its market niches (before a certain CEO destroyed their rep). When I was in college, we all needed a scientific calculator (engineering), and the calculator almost everyone wanted was an HP 41. It was expensive, but it was also the best. It still is an excellent calculator. A used one in good condition on Ebay today may sell for more than its original sales price. HP was the top of the line calculator. It was also a leader in electronic test instruments, was a leader in the printer market, and a number of other areas.

Tesla is likely going to continue to have a reputation like HP did. No matter what BEVs other car makers bring out, a large number of consumers will want a Tesla.

- - - Updated - - -

If the vast majority of car buyers were asking themselves: "Which EV should I buy?" Then, competition might be a problem for Tesla.

The problem is, nobody is asking that. In fact, only a very small subset of car buyers are even asking: "Should I buy ICE or EV?"

The vast majority of car buyers only ask themselves: "Which ICE should I buy?"

So if more and more supposed EV "competition" arrives and EV awareness increases, it will grow that small subset of car buyers asking: "Should I buy ICE or EV?" Only then will more people ask: "Which EV should I buy?" So by then, even if a small percentage of those people answer "Tesla", it will be a big increase compared to today, where again most people as simply asking: "Which ICE should I buy?"

As mainstream car companies bring out BEVs, they will be inevitably be compared to Teslas in articles which will get more people curious about Tesla. I agree very few people are asking which EV they should buy. Most people don't believe EVs are really feasible today.
 
... the calculator almost everyone wanted was an HP 41. It was expensive, but it was also the best. It still is an excellent calculator. A used one in good condition on Ebay today may sell for more than its original sales price. HP was the top of the line calculator. It was also a leader in electronic test instruments, was a leader in the printer market, and a number of other areas...
Wow! If I mentioned on this forum that I've got an HP-41c with that nifty card reader attachment I'd be willing to sell, I bet I'd get talked to by a Mod, so I'd better not.