Tesla BEV Competition Developments

[Fallenone]

So I am back in China for a few weeks and this week I am in Taiyuan, a mid-size inland city. Here all taxi are BYD e6, one of the few BEV BYD builds. I took a spin in one of these and chatted with the driver. Below are my observations from this experience:

BYD e6 is not a big car, and I think it is about the same size as Model 3, maybe a bit smaller. I was sitting in the back seats and the leg room is enough but not great (I'm 177 cm).

From the instrument panel, I see the urban energy efficiency is 170 Wh/km, or about 274 Wh/mi. I think this is the same as Model S with a combination of highway and urban mix. The car runs between 0-50 km/h (0-30 mi/h) when I was in, and equipped with power recycle (or whatever that's called, breaking recharges battery).

The driver claims it can go 370 km (230 mi) for one charge if he drove moderately and not turning on air condition.

Since we were in a busy city, no chance to experience acceleration. The driver was very happy it can go as high as 100 km/h (about 60 mi/h) when he was driving in rural areas.

During noon he takes about one hour to charge the car at a specific charging station. It would take a home charger 7 hours to fully charge it (standard residential power outlets in China are 220V).

The driver was very satisfied with this car. Previously, he wouldn't turn on A/C because it adds on the fuel cost. Now he keeps it on since electricity is much cheaper. He also drove a manual transmission before and the simplicity of EV is a plus for him.

The MSRP is about 310k CNY, which is about 46k USD. But, after national subsidy (about 135k CNY or 20k USD) and taxi company rebates, he only needs to pay about 100k CNY (15k USD) for it.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

The driver claims it can go 370 km (230 mi) for one charge if he drove moderately and not turning on air condition.

Interesting, BYD's own claims are 186 miles...but who knows.

Transport Evolved had a test drive in one and basically decided that it was unsafe, due to a lack of power when attempting to accelerate from a stop while on an incline.

 

[Pollux]

So I am back in China for a few weeks and this week I am in Taiyuan, a mid-size inland city. Here all taxi are BYD e6, one of the few BEV BYD builds.

Thanks for reporting on the BYD e6!

I couldn't help but notice "all taxi are BYD e6" in that particular city. Do you have any reason to believe that this situation is typical in other mid-size (larger? smaller?) Chinese cities? That's a LOT of fossil fuels not being used directly by those taxis(*).

Thanks,
Alan

(*)OK, I get it, the nature of the power on the grid is an issue. But the grid is its own issue in and of itself.

 

[Fallenone]

Interesting, BYD's own claims are 186 miles...but who knows.

Transport Evolved had a test drive in one and basically decided that it was unsafe, due to a lack of power when attempting to accelerate from a stop while on an incline.

Yes I was surprised by that 370 km too. But I think it was for pure urban and no highway while the 186 mi may be a mix of two.

 

[Fallenone]

I have no reason to believe that. BYD made some deal with Taiyuan last year if I remember correctly (I had a long BYD position in the Chinese stock market back then) and this could be the reason why the driver got additional discount/rebate when he bought the car in April.

However, the K9 electric bus manufactured by BYD is having a great market share in many cities.

Thanks for reporting on the BYD e6!

I couldn't help but notice "all taxi are BYD e6" in that particular city. Do you have any reason to believe that this situation is typical in other mid-size (larger? smaller?) Chinese cities? That's a LOT of fossil fuels not being used directly by those taxis(*).

Thanks,
Alan

(*)OK, I get it, the nature of the power on the grid is an issue. But the grid is its own issue in and of itself.

 

[Fallenone]

So I am back in China for a few weeks and this week I am in Taiyuan, a mid-size inland city. Here all taxi are BYD e6, one of the few BEV BYD builds. I took a spin in one of these and chatted with the driver. Below are my observations from this experience:

BYD e6 is not a big car, and I think it is about the same size as Model 3, maybe a bit smaller. I was sitting in the back seats and the leg room is enough but not great (I'm 177 cm).

From the instrument panel, I see the urban energy efficiency is 170 Wh/km, or about 274 Wh/mi. I think this is the same as Model S with a combination of highway and urban mix. The car runs between 0-50 km/h (0-30 mi/h) when I was in, and equipped with power recycle (or whatever that's called, breaking recharges battery).

The driver claims it can go 370 km (230 mi) for one charge if he drove moderately and not turning on air condition.

Since we were in a busy city, no chance to experience acceleration. The driver was very happy it can go as high as 100 km/h (about 60 mi/h) when he was driving in rural areas.

During noon he takes about one hour to charge the car at a specific charging station. It would take a home charger 7 hours to fully charge it (standard residential power outlets in China are 220V).

The driver was very satisfied with this car. Previously, he wouldn't turn on A/C because it adds on the fuel cost. Now he keeps it on since electricity is much cheaper. He also drove a manual transmission before and the simplicity of EV is a plus for him.

The MSRP is about 310k CNY, which is about 46k USD. But, after national subsidy (about 135k CNY or 20k USD) and taxi company rebates, he only needs to pay about 100k CNY (15k USD) for it.

I can't edit my original post so I'll add here. The driver also said the 57 kwh battery in e6 costs 180k CNY, or 468 USD/ kWh. But I have no way to verify this. E6 uses Fe battery technology

 

[neroden]

I really do think BYD is going to be a very serious competitor in the electric car business.

I still think there's room enough for more than two companies. In the near term (2018..2020) I don't think BYD will cut into Tesla's demand, because I think both companies will be production-constrained. I think it'll hurt the ICE business instead.

 

[renim]

FWIW, BYD e6 battery has increase from about 60kWh to 80kWh
e6

its a taxi, just like a bus is a bus

consumers buy cars, not taxis.

 

[wdolson]

The e6 is limited to 87 mph top speed and I would think from the shape that the highway range would drop pretty sharply. It has the aerodynamics of a brick.

Here are the dimensions of the e6 vs the Model 3:

e6:
Wheelbase
2,830 mm (111.4 in)
Length 4,554 mm (179.3 in)
Width 1,822 mm (71.7 in)
Height 1,630 mm (64.2 in)
Curb weight 2,020 kg (4,453 lb)

Model 3:
Wheelbase
2,870 mm (113 in) est.[2]
Length 4,676 mm (184.1 in) est.[2]
Width 1,885 mm (74.2 in) est.[2]
Height 1,435 mm (56.5 in) est.[2]

Both are from Wikipedia.

 

[pz1975]

New 2018 BMW 3 Series to feature all-electric version to rival Tesla

Sneaky title of the article - hybrid version predicted for 2018, all-electric version predicted for 2020.

 

[dalalsid]

Paris motor show put to bed every argument about competition. No sign of Audi Q6 eTron or Porsche mIssion E. Only EV from VW was a Golf successor which is expected to compete with Leaf/Bolt in/after 2020. Mercedes showed a concept for the next decade. BMW was absent. The only close to production EVs were the improved range Zoe (European Leaf, still under 200 mile range) and the European Opel version of the Bolt. Even if the Model 3 gets delayed to 2019, there is no competition at all.

 

[winfield100]

Paris motor show put to bed every argument about competition. No sign of Audi Q6 eTron or Porsche mIssion E. Only EV from VW was a Golf successor which is expected to compete with Leaf/Bolt in/after 2020. Mercedes showed a concept for the next decade. BMW was absent. The only close to production EVs were the improved range Zoe (European Leaf, still under 200 mile range) and the European Opel version of the Bolt. Even if the Model 3 gets delayed to 2019, there is no competition at all.

nice, helpful, objective observations
thanks

 

[Spidy]

Paris motor show put to bed every argument about competition. No sign of Audi Q6 eTron or Porsche mIssion E. Only EV from VW was a Golf successor which is expected to compete with Leaf/Bolt in/after 2020. Mercedes showed a concept for the next decade. BMW was absent. The only close to production EVs were the improved range Zoe (European Leaf, still under 200 mile range) and the European Opel version of the Bolt. Even if the Model 3 gets delayed to 2019, there is no competition at all.

So Tesla didn't show the Model 3 what's your interpretation for that?

 

[ggr]

So Tesla didn't show the Model 3 what's your interpretation for that?

Tesla almost never shows at car shows, and they certainly don't need any more pre-orders for the Model 3. Anyway, they've already shown the Model 3, so it wouldn't be news.

 

[McRat]

So Tesla didn't show the Model 3 what's your interpretation for that?

Perhaps 400k of preorders doesn't justify spending a million to display the car to bump the number even further?

 

[Spidy]

Tesla almost never shows at car shows, and they certainly don't need any more pre-orders for the Model 3. Anyway, they've already shown the Model 3, so it wouldn't be news.

You mean like Audi with the Q6 e-tron and Porsche's Mission E?

 

[ggr]

You mean like Audi with the Q6 e-tron and Porsche's Mission E?

Exactly, which is why they weren't featured in Paris either...

 

[dalalsid]

So Tesla didn't show the Model 3 what's your interpretation for that?

Tesla doesn't show anything at these motor shows. And Tesla is delivering the Model S and Model X now. Just FYI VW showed a bunch of upcoming cars. But no Q6 eTron or Mission E which implies they are not upcoming. Tesla was not even an exhibitor. You would have a point if Tesla showed up and showed a bunch of upcoming cars (Model Y, Truck etc.) but no Model 3.

 

[techmaven]

I think the big difference is that the Model 3 was shown with the very clear intent that Tesla wants to ship it in 1.5 years or so.

The Audi Q6 e-tron and the Porsche Mission-E might not even ship at all, given VW Group's penchant for talking up BEVs and not shipping them or having to alter them. Further, a slew of the specs given when the concepts were shown were clearly big leaps of technology and chemistry that they don't yet possess. Tesla's Model 3 is only one step change in technology from what Tesla ships today. Nothing that VW Group ships today is close to the tech that would have to developed for the Audi Q6 e-tron or Mission-E. Further, there are plenty of whiz bang elements in those concept cars that will clearly not make it to production. For the Model 3, we saw some simple stuff that were place holders, but that body is very close to what they intend on shipping. Same with the specs they provided.

Then, we also know that Tesla is working hard at scaling the volumes for the Model 3. We have not seen that from VW Group... we have seen some press releases, heard some words, but no real movement is visible yet.

 

[dennis]

The Audi Q6 e-tron and the Porsche Mission-E might not even ship at all, given VW Group's penchant for talking up BEVs and not shipping them or having to alter them.

This time may be different because of Dieselgate and the 2021 EU emission targets.