Tesla BEV Competition Developments

[wdolson]

These are the EVs with longest range tested last year in Motor Trend's designed testing loop. Not EPA. Not every BEV sold in America was tested. Just the longest range performers of the BEVs tested.

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Were all these cars tested under the same wind conditions or tested so that wind canceled out? EV ranges are so sensitive to air resistance that a mild tailwind or headwind could make a big difference. On a road trip I once got very close to rated range driving 75 mph because I had an 11 mph tailwind. The return trip into the same wind got dismal range.

 

[RobStark]

Were all these cars tested under the same wind conditions or tested so that wind canceled out? EV ranges are so sensitive to air resistance that a mild tailwind or headwind could make a big difference. On a road trip I once got very close to rated range driving 75 mph because I had an 11 mph tailwind. The return trip into the same wind got dismal range.

No lab. They were tested on the mean streets/freeways of Los Angeles.

They were not all tested on the same day.

No magazine/youtube channel test in a laboratory or so many cars on the same day.

We have EPA for standardized testing. Albeit with two different cycles available to automakers.

 

[wdolson]

No lab. They were tested on the mean streets/freeways of Los Angeles.

They were not all tested on the same day.

No magazine/youtube channel test in a laboratory or so many cars on the same day.

We have EPA for standardized testing. Albeit with two different cycles available to automakers.

I think Motor Trend tends to do road tests either over the Grapevine or out into the desert or a loop partially up the Grapevine then loops back through Palmdale. The winds in the Mojave can be quite strong and variable. The mountains can get a lot of wind too.

All this controversy with not getting rated range is a combination of the EPA test being the way it is and people not understanding how environmental conditions affect EV ranges more than ICE because EVs are so efficient. Even my sister struggled to understand and she's extremely well educated and quite adept at math. Though she's also philosophically opposed to EVs because she is a petroleum geologist and hates the government of California with a passion.

 

[Cobos]

This is why the El Prix tests NAF does actually makes sense. Driving around 30 EVs in a convoy so experiencing the same weather and conditions and at the same time. I or some other Norwegian has typically linked to it when it comes out. The speeds are lower than 70, at most 65 and at the end more like 50mph, but the end of their "loop" has like almost 4000ft of elevation changes so the longer lasting cars do end up using a lot at the end. I will of course like out their newest winter test which is going to be done sometime in January, and propably will be published late January or early February.

 

[transpondster]

This is why the El Prix tests NAF does actually makes sense. Driving around 30 EVs in a convoy so experiencing the same weather and conditions and at the same time. I or some other Norwegian has typically linked to it when it comes out. The speeds are lower than 70, at most 65 and at the end more like 50mph, but the end of their "loop" has like almost 4000ft of elevation changes so the longer lasting cars do end up using a lot at the end. I will of course like out their newest winter test which is going to be done sometime in January, and propably will be published late January or early February.

The only small negative side IIRC Bjorn said they uses car speedometer speed not GPS.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

This is why the El Prix tests NAF does actually makes sense. Driving around 30 EVs in a convoy so experiencing the same weather and conditions and at the same time. I or some other Norwegian has typically linked to it when it comes out. The speeds are lower than 70, at most 65 and at the end more like 50mph, but the end of their "loop" has like almost 4000ft of elevation changes so the longer lasting cars do end up using a lot at the end. I will of course like out their newest winter test which is going to be done sometime in January, and propably will be published late January or early February.

There's also an element of luck with the elevation changes as _just_ getting over a crest can make a significant difference to their range.

 

[Cobos]

There's also an element of luck with the elevation changes as _just_ getting over a crest can make a significant difference to their range.

Not disagreeing with that, but its the same for all cars. And generally there’s a lot of up first, as the test starts at more or less at sea level. And seeing who gets furthest is comparable and in regards to the cars rated range.
So clearly better than tests that do 2-4 cars on each test with wildly different conditions and drivers.
Keep in mind in a convoy everyone will basically use the same speed.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Well, it's official. BYD was the BEV king for 4Q23. We now wait to see how seasonal their sales will be in 2024.

 

[FreqFlyer]

New Porsche Taycan Crushes Tesla Model S Plaid's Nurburgring Lap Time By 18 Seconds | Carscoops

With a Nurburgring lap time of 7:07.55, the upcoming range-topping version of the Porsche Taycan is just 2.25 seconds behind the Rimac Nevera

www.carscoops.com

 

[CorneliusXX]

China offers a lot of car for $25k

https://twitter.com/x/status/1744114880641224908

 

[heltok]

Cliffs: mass production is hard, they did things Elon would have refused, DEI, marketing etc…

 

[RobStark]

Edmunds test prototype Macan EV in performance trim with 100 kWh pack.

Goal was steady 70 mph with three men aboard with HVAC set at 72 degrees.

They got 298 miles with trip computer showing 7 miles left.

Edit Motor Trend did the same thing.

They got 252 miles with 14% of the battery remaining and 37 miles of predicted range left.

 

[RobStark]

Cliffs: mass production is hard, they did things Elon would have refused, DEI, marketing etc…

Elon does a lot of marketing. Until very recently he refused to do paid advertising. Yes, so far Tesla paid advertising is very limited.

Customer testimonials on company youtube channel was how Tesla entered a new market.

Edit. Saw entire video. He said Arcimoto was paying $2M/quarter for marketing, which he implied was mostly salaries of marketing department.

Early in Elon's CEO tenure Tesla's marketing efforts was Elon on social media and Elon directing some interns. Maybe still is that way. $2M/quarter for a company that delivered a whole 1k trikes is just crazy.

 

[MC3OZ]

Good review of Model 3 Highland and BYD Seal:-

The executive summary is both cars have their merits, and it is hard to pick a winner.

The Chinese a very good at copying, very good at manufacturing and reasonably good at innovation.

The Chinese are also doing a reasonable job of copying Optimus.

Tesla will always have the best products but the Chinese are closing the gap in some areas.

This is why things like, Software, Supercharging, Insurance, and FSD are important, those things are harder to copy.

There is plenty of market share for all, but the pace of innovation and diversification is important in the long run.

In particular, FSD is important and very hard to copy well.

 

[MC3OZ]

Hyundai undercuts Tesla Model 3 by $9,300 with 2024 IONIQ 6 special cash offer

With a new special cash offer, the 2024 Hyundai IONIQ 6 can be significantly cheaper to buy than the upgraded...

electrek.co

The cash offer could bring the IONIQ 6’s MSRP of $38,615 down to just over $30,000 ($31,115) as one of the most affordable EVs on the market. In comparison, the new Tesla Model 3 Highland starts at $40,380 (including destination).

Short term the solution here is find a way of making Model 3 qualify for the IRA if possible,

IONIQ 6 might not yet be available in sufficient volumes to be a major problem.

Long term, more competition and lower priced EVs seem inevitable. That is good for the mission, but does present some challenges for Tesla.

if V12 if FSD is good enough for Robotaxis soon, that might be great timing...

 

[wdolson]

Hyundai undercuts Tesla Model 3 by $9,300 with 2024 IONIQ 6 special cash offer

With a new special cash offer, the 2024 Hyundai IONIQ 6 can be significantly cheaper to buy than the upgraded...

electrek.co

Short term the solution here is find a way of making Model 3 qualify for the IRA if possible,

IONIQ 6 might not yet be available in sufficient volumes to be a major problem.

Long term, more competition and lower priced EVs seem inevitable. That is good for the mission, but does present some challenges for Tesla.

if V12 if FSD is good enough for Robotaxis soon, that might be great timing...

I wouldn't hold your breath for unmanned robotaxis anytime soon. Some areas with good weather year round have approve pilot programs for driverless cars, but I don't see it widespread anytime soon.

If I was Elon, I'd be pushing hard for the Model 2 right now. A sub-compact EV with good range at a good price would not be a big seller in the US which loves larger vehicles, but would be very popular in a lot of other markets.

Elon should also step down as CEO and leave the company in the hands of a much less controversial engineer. His antics are souring a lot of people on the Tesla brand. I know several people who would buy a Tesla if it wasn't for Elon.

 

[MC3OZ]

If I was Elon, I'd be pushing hard for the Model 2 right now

I think they are doing that...

Last thing I heard was FSD works fairly well in California, but has trouble in areas with more rain.

IMO there are 2 potential problems:-
1) Are the cameras getting a clear unobstructed view?
2) Does Tesla have enough data?

I've driven in a snow storm (in Scotland), I couldn't see much, but there were just enough visual cues most of the time to make driving possible and I did drive home in first gear.

All depends if the issue is just data and training or if hardware upgrades are needed.

As per my case, I think FSD might be able to adapt to driving based on what it can see, based on how humans would adapt, but that is unproven, and it might not be that easy...

 

[wdolson]

I think they are doing that...

Last thing I heard was FSD works fairly well in California, but has trouble in areas with more rain.

IMO there are 2 potential problems:-
1) Are the cameras getting a clear unobstructed view?
2) Does Tesla have enough data?

I've driven in a snow storm (in Scotland), I couldn't see much, but there were just enough visual cues most of the time to make driving possible and I did drive home in first gear.

All depends if the issue is just data and training or if hardware upgrades are needed.

As per my case, I think FSD might be able to adapt to driving based on what it can see, based on how humans would adapt, but that is unproven, and it might not be that easy...

In the summers around here FSD would work fine, but I've driven in some pretty bad weather. I wouldn't trust FSD under those conditions.

We're expecting snow tomorrow. Most of the lines on the road will be invisible for a few days.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

No, FSD does not "work fairly well" in any context or region. Some influencers are able to edit together enough minutes of well-worn routes around the Fremont factory to make a monetizable YouTube video, but it's still nothing more than an impressive and promising experiment that does not yet have any real valuable function other than the ability to sometimes change lanes under diligent human supervision without incident.

 

[willow_hiller]

No, FSD does not "work fairly well" in any context or region. Some influencers are able to edit together enough minutes of well-worn routes around the Fremont factory to make a monetizable YouTube video, but it's still nothing more than an impressive and promising experiment that does not yet have any real valuable function other than the ability to sometimes change lanes under diligent human supervision without incident.

Speak for yourself (if you actually have FSD and aren't just editing together a trash opinion from others). I use FSD Beta every day. The only situations I disengage it are for construction.

It's so useful for me, I wouldn't buy another vehicle that didn't have it.