Will the new CCS enabled superchargers have long cables?

We've seen the announcement that Tesla will open 3,500 supercharger stalls (probably new ones) to use by CCS cars and, announcing this in concert with the White House, will presumably receive federal money to do this. The question is, just how big an opening of the network is this?

FACT SHEET: Biden-Harris Administration Announces New Standards and Major Progress for a Made-in-America National Network of Electric Vehicle Chargers | The White House

Made in America Policies and New Technical Standards Support the Future of the Electric Vehicle Charging Industry, Public and Private Actions Accelerate Buildout of National Network and Catalyze Manufacturing Boom Today, the Biden-Harris Administration announced its latest set of actions aimed...

www.whitehouse.gov

In particular, none of the supposedly "leaked" diagrams of Tesla's "magic dock" -- sometimes depicted as a NACS to CCS adapter built into the stall which can be unlocked and used by CCS cars, and sometimes shown as a dual-cord stall -- show an ordinary length charging cord. All Tesla drivers know it can be fairly hard to get the Tesla cord into their car's port which is right at the rear corner of the car. No other car has the port exactly at that corner (or the opposite front) though the Lexus and Mitsubishi have it somewhat close, and maybe an e-Tron could pull it off with a slightly longer cord. Hyunda/Kias could use it if they parked half a parking space over which we don't want.

Tesla could, to be sneaky, keep their cord and say "we support CCS" but for very few cars. They don't care that much about the bad press this would bring. Tesla cords now use liquid cooling and you can't just stick an extension cord on them.

The expansion is not that much. Tesla has 17,000 chargers now and says it will have double that (34,000) in the same timeframe, so only 10% of their stalls will support CCS. These will presumably be only new installations, and possibly not all the stalls at a station to boot. There are some places like Oregon where getting grants requires having a 350kW station, which Tesla can presumably support with their new V4 supercharger which handles up to 1,000v.

The WH announcement talks of even more money beyond the $5B NEVI program being administered by the states. That program puts a lot of rules on stations which don't match the way Tesla designs stations -- and usually stupid rules, though a few of them, like support for plug-and-charge and exporting stall availability status to appear in other apps, make sense. Screens, credit cards and 150kW minimums at all times on 4 ports are mistakes that come from the government and lobbyists designing your charging station.

Tesla has many other avenues to discourage non-Tesla use of these 10% of their chargers. They will charge CCS drivers more, but they are also offering a $1/month membership according to reports which will bring the price down. Nothing would forbid them from giving power priority to Teslas (or members) except at the 4 NEVI stalls. And they could make only a few stalls support CCS, making the stations less attractive to CCS drivers. (If a station has 32 stalls and only 4 support your car, you may feel less inclined to use it.)

Or will they, as they have said they want to do, embrace the CCS cars -- give them good prices, make all stalls support CCS and put longer cords on all stalls, at least for a CCS cord?

"Tesla Supercharger" by Open Grid Scheduler / Grid Engine is marked with CC0 1.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[smogne41]

The only way to do it is to kill another car, you can buy the CCS port on sites like Alibaba but the control board is proprietary to Qualcomm so you buy thousands or none. Taking a wrecked car and using it to connect a Leaf to CCS is practical, but you can't start a business doing that unless you know a way to cause a bunch of EVs to wreck. So CCS is a one-off for everyone but OEMs.

Of course it's even HARDER to put a Tesla plug on a Leaf, so I guess it's not SO bad that Qualcomm has the IP all locked up.

Just really wanna convert my wife's iMiev to CCS

The BMW i3 charge port controller has been hacked by the Open Inverter people (Damien Maguire, etc) and has now been used in several conversions. Either available on the salvage market or BMW will actually just sell it to you. Even Tesla will sell you the charge port VCU for people who want to DIY their own CCS upgrades to their older Model 3/Y (though that one has not been hacked to the point of usability in conversions yet from what I know, but people are working on it).

 

[3sr+buyer]

Hey, who doesn't prefer pull through? It's a matter of cost and real estate.

For some reason, many drivers do not seem to prefer pull through. There are some parking lots that, when not close to full, are easy to pull through because there are many end-to-end parking spaces with both empty. But when I get to those parking lots, I see most cars parked head-in with an empty space in front of them.

Backing into a parking space is significantly easier with backup cameras than without, especially in more recent vehicles with worse rear and rear side outward visibility.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

I definitely prefer pull thru.

 

[DeepBlueMN]

And now a motorcycle.

View attachment 912927

Hmmm. Small vehicle, but still managed to partially block another stall.

 

[ewoodrick]

Somebody will successfully DIY retrofit CCS into a Leaf eventually, I am sure of it. It is already something that can be added to an EV conversion, but it is not common yet and is still decently expensive.

Remember, that not all Leafs even come with fast charging!!!!

 

[ewoodrick]

The only way to do it is to kill another car, you can buy the CCS port on sites like Alibaba but the control board is proprietary to Qualcomm so you buy thousands or none. Taking a wrecked car and using it to connect a Leaf to CCS is practical, but you can't start a business doing that unless you know a way to cause a bunch of EVs to wreck. So CCS is a one-off for everyone but OEMs.

Of course it's even HARDER to put a Tesla plug on a Leaf, so I guess it's not SO bad that Qualcomm has the IP all locked up.

Just really wanna convert my wife's iMiev to CCS

Of course, if you were going to start a business, buying thousands isn't out of the question.

 

[bradtem]

Of course, if you were going to start a business, buying thousands isn't out of the question.

Well, CdM uses Canbus for signaling and protocol form, but CCS uses ISO 15118 (an IP like protocol I think) over power line communications. But a small controller to manage the packets would not be that hard, but it would probably be harder to manage all the protocol stuff. I recall hearing that Tesla's CdM adapter relied on smarts inside the Tesla to do that and the $400 adapter only did some low level mapping. So I am guessing it would be harder to make an adapter for a Leaf, though in the end, the DC pins are the DC pins.

Almost all CCS stations have at least one CdM port, and in fact the older ones often have an equal number of ports. And there aren't really a lot of Leafs out on road trips, because until recently it didn't have the range to be a decent road trip car -- even today it's at the low end. Because there aren't so many, the shorter supply of CdM chargers isn't a barrier, I expect that Leafs don't have too much challenge finding one. (For a while, before Tesla's CCS adapter, Teslas with the adapter were actually the largest user of CdM stations as far as I can see.)

So would there be that much market for a CdM to CCS adapter for Leafs?

On the other hand, a Tesla adapter for Leafs, if they could charge at SC, would probably be more popular. But Nissan has switched the Aria to CCS.

 

[emulajavi]

If Tesla Superchagers continue to be installed near the rear-left of the Teslas (red) the cable length that they would need to service every car, is the blue line.

That way, every car could charge while being parked correctly in the correct spot. Cars with their charging port near their front would park towards the charger.

If the supercharger was placed in the middle, the cable could be a little bit shorter. Maybe a 7ft cable for a Supercharger placed at the middle would be enough to service any car, and 10 or 12 ft if the Supercharger continues to be placed on the ‘rear left’

 

[bradtem]

If Tesla Superchagers continue to be installed near the rear-left of the Teslas (red) the cable length that they would need to service every car, is the blue line.

That way, every car could charge while being parked correctly in the correct spot. Cars with their charging port near their front would park towards the charger.

If the supercharger was placed in the middle, the cable could be a little bit shorter. Maybe a 7ft cable for a Supercharger placed at the middle would be enough to service any car, and 10 or 12 ft if the Supercharger continues to be placed on the ‘rear left’

View attachment 913765

This would still not quite get the e-Tron I think. Realize that this diagram is not accurate -- it just shows the general area of the cars, and not all the cars listed at a point are at the same point. (For example Tesla is right at the corner, Polestar is a foot further etc.)

Obviously Tesla could make the cables longer. Many charger brands have longer cables. It costs money, and is harder to cool, and runs a risk that the cable is left on the ground and run over.

Tesla also doesn't want to go out of their way to charge every car. As long as they can charge most it's fine for them, and if it gets them the subsidy credits.

 

[TesslaBull]

On the Mach-e forums, they are complaining about Tesla not accommodating other OEM's by not using the "correct" cable length, and that Tesla should retrofit all of their chargers with longer cables. I suggested other OEM's should have followed the leader that already has 4 million EV's on the road if they were interested in standardization and making the ownership experience better for their customers.

The Mach E has to park sideways and block 3 spaces to charge.

At a very busy station, I think this is a bigger issue for non Tesla's. If cars are waiting in line to charge, no one is going to wait until three consecutive stalls are empty for a non Tesla to charge by parking sideways along the charger.

I do realize that if one car is parked in the wrong spot to charge that it costs a spot. But at a full station with a line of cars, non Tesla's aren't going to be easy to get a spot.

 

[stopcrazypp]

On the Mach-e forums, they are complaining about Tesla not accommodating other OEM's by not using the "correct" cable length, and that Tesla should retrofit all of their chargers with longer cables. I suggested other OEM's should have followed the leader that already has 4 million EV's on the road if they were interested in standardization and making the ownership experience better for their customers.

The Mach E has to park sideways and block 3 spaces to charge.

At a very busy station, I think this is a bigger issue for non Tesla's. If cars are waiting in line to charge, no one is going to wait until three consecutive stalls are empty for a non Tesla to charge by parking sideways along the charger.

I do realize that if one car is parked in the wrong spot to charge that it costs a spot. But at a full station with a line of cars, non Tesla's aren't going to be easy to get a spot.

It's because Ford used a stupid charge door design (the same issue affects the F150). They put it way back near the driver door and the door hinges on the left, so it blocks any charge cable that comes from the front (which is the case for most public charging, not just Tesla's). That means their configuration in particular would need significantly longer cables to accommodate (doesn't help they have a super long hood; the Bolt has a similar door design, but the hood is super short so doesn't matter). The blue line @emulajavi put actually would not be long enough for them, there needs to be some extra length beyond that.

Even in their own promo pictures they have the cable almost always coming from the front, so it's not like their designers would not be aware of it:

https://www.ford.com/mustang/ev-charging/mache/

If the charge door was not in the way, it wouldn't be an issue.

I highly doubt Tesla will change the cables to accommodate them. This rollout was meant to be limited and to provide some more options for non-Teslas, it's not meant to be a primary service. They would have to wait for V4.

 

[Genie]

Aren’t the subsidies enough to pay for longer cords on those stalls only?. Located at one end of the row to be distinct.
The existing non subsidized are already set up correctly to do their job, chargng Teslas, and now other EVs with left rear charging ports.

 

[STS-134]

It's because Ford used a stupid charge door design (the same issue affects the F150). They put it way back near the driver door and the door hinges on the left, so it blocks any charge cable that comes from the front (which is the case for most public charging, not just Tesla's). That means their configuration in particular would need significantly longer cables to accommodate (doesn't help they have a super long hood; the Bolt has a similar door design, but the hood is super short so doesn't matter). The blue line @emulajavi put actually would not be long enough for them, there needs to be some extra length beyond that.

If the charge door was not in the way, it wouldn't be an issue.

I'm looking at charge port door photos of the Mach-E right now and the charge port door is not bigger than the charge port door on my Outlander PHEV (which does not block the charge cable on any level 2 EVSE, provided that it comes from the same side of the vehicle, even if it comes from the opposite end). Ford should make the port open toward the closest end of the vehicle (toward the front) because level 2 EVSEs, if the cable comes from the correct side of the parking stall, are generally long enough to reach all the way forward and around the door, while fast charge cables coming from the front are generally not long/flexible enough to bend around.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Aren’t the subsidies enough to pay for longer cords on those stalls only?. Located at one end of the row to be distinct.
The existing non subsidized are already set up correctly to do their job, chargng Teslas, and now other EVs with left rear charging ports.

Others discussed, but the subsidies do not have any explicit requirements for cable length. As long as the car can still charge (which it can, albeit blocking other stalls), it may still qualify for subsidies. That said there is no indication Tesla is going the traditional subsidy route as their stalls have other issues to meet them (for example the payment).

 

[stopcrazypp]

I'm looking at charge port door photos of the Mach-E right now and the charge port door is not bigger than the charge port door on my Outlander PHEV (which does not block the charge cable on any level 2 EVSE, provided that it comes from the same side of the vehicle, even if it comes from the opposite end). Ford should make the port open toward the closest end of the vehicle (toward the front) because level 2 EVSEs, if the cable comes from the right side of the parking stall, are generally long enough to reach all the way forward and around the door, while fast charge cables coming from the front are generally not long/flexible enough to bend around.

Yes, if they simply hinge the door the other way (or hinge from top or bottom, or have a sliding design like a lot of others), it would fix the issue. The issue is as you say, the DC charge cables are not flexible/long enough to bend around the door (L2 cables are not an issue as they are much more flexible and typically are much longer).

Your Outlander PHEV has the "correct" configuration for the door, such that it would not block a DC cable coming from the shortest end:

 

[tivoboy]

If Tesla Superchagers continue to be installed near the rear-left of the Teslas (red) the cable length that they would need to service every car, is the blue line.

That way, every car could charge while being parked correctly in the correct spot. Cars with their charging port near their front would park towards the charger.

If the supercharger was placed in the middle, the cable could be a little bit shorter. Maybe a 7ft cable for a Supercharger placed at the middle would be enough to service any car, and 10 or 12 ft if the Supercharger continues to be placed on the ‘rear left’

View attachment 913765

But, center stall is SO MUNDANE and not probably Feng Shui… or at least that’s me channeling my inner Elon

 

[tivoboy]

It's because Ford used a stupid charge door design (the same issue affects the F150). They put it way back near the driver door and the door hinges on the left, so it blocks any charge cable that comes from the front (which is the case for most public charging, not just Tesla's). That means their configuration in particular would need significantly longer cables to accommodate (doesn't help they have a super long hood; the Bolt has a similar door design, but the hood is super short so doesn't matter). The blue line @emulajavi put actually would not be long enough for them, there needs to be some extra length beyond that.

Even in their own promo pictures they have the cable almost always coming from the front, so it's not like their designers would not be aware of it:

https://www.ford.com/mustang/ev-charging/mache/

If the charge door was not in the way, it wouldn't be an issue.

I highly doubt Tesla will change the cables to accommodate them. This rollout was meant to be limited and to provide some more options for non-Teslas, it's not meant to be a primary service. They would have to wait for V4.

Frankly, it doesn’t really seem to impair the mating cable attachment, but Ford or other OEM if that were truly the case COULD make the hinge mechanism a lift off option - for short duration removal of the door completely for this circumstance.. not optimal, but certainly doable. In the RED MACH E example I can’t imagine that the door is impairing cable optimumization though.

 

[STS-134]

Yes, if they simply hinge the door the other way (or hinge from top or bottom, or have a sliding design like a lot of others), it would fix the issue. The issue is as you say, the DC charge cables are not flexible/long enough to bend around the door (L2 cables are not an issue as they are much more flexible and typically are much longer).

Your Outlander PHEV has the "correct" configuration for the door, such that it would not block a DC cable coming from the shortest end:

DC cables are amusing for that car. I've had trouble getting CHAdeMO connectors to reach, even when I back into the stall, if the charger cable comes from either the center or just to the right of the center of the stall, because the connectors are too damn short and were designed for Nissans. They won't reach around to the other side of the vehicle and they certainly won't reach the other end if I go in front first. Of course, this isn't too critical given that I can just burn gas in that car, but I've had to block stalls before to CHAdeMO charge it.

 

[stopcrazypp]

DC cables are amusing for that car. I've had trouble getting CHAdeMO connectors to reach, even when I back into the stall, if the charger cable comes from either the center or just to the right of the center of the stall, because the connectors are too damn short and were designed for Nissans. They won't reach around to the other side of the vehicle and they certainly won't reach the other end if I go in front first. Of course, this isn't too critical given that I can just burn gas in that car, but I've had to block stalls before to CHAdeMO charge it.

Yeah, I imagine most CHAdeMO stations are designed for the front port of the Leaf. But imagine if your door was hinged on the left, that would probably make your life even harder.

 

[3sr+buyer]

It's because Ford used a stupid charge door design (the same issue affects the F150). They put it way back near the driver door and the door hinges on the left, so it blocks any charge cable that comes from the front (which is the case for most public charging, not just Tesla's). That means their configuration in particular would need significantly longer cables to accommodate (doesn't help they have a super long hood; the Bolt has a similar door design, but the hood is super short so doesn't matter). The blue line @emulajavi put actually would not be long enough for them, there needs to be some extra length beyond that.

Even in their own promo pictures they have the cable almost always coming from the front, so it's not like their designers would not be aware of it:

It is probably done that way so that if the door is left open while driving, the wind or any object being struck will close the door instead of breaking it off. I.e. a similar reason why rear-hinged car doors ("suicide doors") are uncommon on cars. On ICEVs, fuel doors on the side of the vehicle are generally front hinged rather than rear hinged, probably for the same reason.

But it can be done that way while keeping the door out of the way of charging cables by making the door be able to open to ~160 degrees instead of ~90 degrees.