Will the new CCS enabled superchargers have long cables?

We've seen the announcement that Tesla will open 3,500 supercharger stalls (probably new ones) to use by CCS cars and, announcing this in concert with the White House, will presumably receive federal money to do this. The question is, just how big an opening of the network is this?

FACT SHEET: Biden-Harris Administration Announces New Standards and Major Progress for a Made-in-America National Network of Electric Vehicle Chargers | The White House

Made in America Policies and New Technical Standards Support the Future of the Electric Vehicle Charging Industry, Public and Private Actions Accelerate Buildout of National Network and Catalyze Manufacturing Boom Today, the Biden-Harris Administration announced its latest set of actions aimed...

www.whitehouse.gov

In particular, none of the supposedly "leaked" diagrams of Tesla's "magic dock" -- sometimes depicted as a NACS to CCS adapter built into the stall which can be unlocked and used by CCS cars, and sometimes shown as a dual-cord stall -- show an ordinary length charging cord. All Tesla drivers know it can be fairly hard to get the Tesla cord into their car's port which is right at the rear corner of the car. No other car has the port exactly at that corner (or the opposite front) though the Lexus and Mitsubishi have it somewhat close, and maybe an e-Tron could pull it off with a slightly longer cord. Hyunda/Kias could use it if they parked half a parking space over which we don't want.

Tesla could, to be sneaky, keep their cord and say "we support CCS" but for very few cars. They don't care that much about the bad press this would bring. Tesla cords now use liquid cooling and you can't just stick an extension cord on them.

The expansion is not that much. Tesla has 17,000 chargers now and says it will have double that (34,000) in the same timeframe, so only 10% of their stalls will support CCS. These will presumably be only new installations, and possibly not all the stalls at a station to boot. There are some places like Oregon where getting grants requires having a 350kW station, which Tesla can presumably support with their new V4 supercharger which handles up to 1,000v.

The WH announcement talks of even more money beyond the $5B NEVI program being administered by the states. That program puts a lot of rules on stations which don't match the way Tesla designs stations -- and usually stupid rules, though a few of them, like support for plug-and-charge and exporting stall availability status to appear in other apps, make sense. Screens, credit cards and 150kW minimums at all times on 4 ports are mistakes that come from the government and lobbyists designing your charging station.

Tesla has many other avenues to discourage non-Tesla use of these 10% of their chargers. They will charge CCS drivers more, but they are also offering a $1/month membership according to reports which will bring the price down. Nothing would forbid them from giving power priority to Teslas (or members) except at the 4 NEVI stalls. And they could make only a few stalls support CCS, making the stations less attractive to CCS drivers. (If a station has 32 stalls and only 4 support your car, you may feel less inclined to use it.)

Or will they, as they have said they want to do, embrace the CCS cars -- give them good prices, make all stalls support CCS and put longer cords on all stalls, at least for a CCS cord?

"Tesla Supercharger" by Open Grid Scheduler / Grid Engine is marked with CC0 1.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[Webeevdrivers]

We've seen the announcement that Tesla will open 3,500 supercharger stalls (probably new ones) to use by CCS cars and, announcing this in concert with the White House, will presumably receive federal money to do this. The question is, just how big an opening of the network is this?

FACT SHEET: Biden-Harris Administration Announces New Standards and Major Progress for a Made-in-America National Network of Electric Vehicle Chargers | The White House

Made in America Policies and New Technical Standards Support the Future of the Electric Vehicle Charging Industry, Public and Private Actions Accelerate Buildout of National Network and Catalyze Manufacturing Boom Today, the Biden-Harris Administration announced its latest set of actions aimed...

www.whitehouse.gov

In particular, none of the supposedly "leaked" diagrams of Tesla's "magic dock" -- sometimes depicted as a NACS to CCS adapter built into the stall which can be unlocked and used by CCS cars, and sometimes shown as a dual-cord stall -- show an ordinary length charging cord. All Tesla drivers know it can be fairly hard to get the Tesla cord into their car's port which is right at the rear corner of the car. No other car has the port exactly at that corner (or the opposite front) though the Lexus and Mitsubishi have it somewhat close, and maybe an e-Tron could pull it off with a slightly longer cord. Hyunda/Kias could use it if they parked half a parking space over which we don't want.

Tesla could, to be sneaky, keep their cord and say "we support CCS" but for very few cars. They don't care that much about the bad press this would bring. Tesla cords now use liquid cooling and you can't just stick an extension cord on them.

The expansion is not that much. Tesla has 17,000 chargers now and says it will have double that (34,000) in the same timeframe, so only 10% of their stalls will support CCS. These will presumably be only new installations, and possibly not all the stalls at a station to boot. There are some places like Oregon where getting grants requires having a 350kW station, which Tesla can presumably support with their new V4 supercharger which handles up to 1,000v.

The WH announcement talks of even more money beyond the $5B NEVI program being administered by the states. That program puts a lot of rules on stations which don't match the way Tesla designs stations -- and usually stupid rules, though a few of them, like support for plug-and-charge and exporting stall availability status to appear in other apps, make sense. Screens, credit cards and 150kW minimums at all times on 4 ports are mistakes that come from the government and lobbyists designing your charging station.

Tesla has many other avenues to discourage non-Tesla use of these 10% of their chargers. They will charge CCS drivers more, but they are also offering a $1/month membership according to reports which will bring the price down. Nothing would forbid them from giving power priority to Teslas (or members) except at the 4 NEVI stalls. And they could make only a few stalls support CCS, making the stations less attractive to CCS drivers. (If a station has 32 stalls and only 4 support your car, you may feel less inclined to use it.)

Or will they, as they have said they want to do, embrace the CCS cars -- give them good prices, make all stalls support CCS and put longer cords on all stalls, at least for a CCS cord?

it will be interesting to see how this develops. It is definitely not as simple as just slapping an adaptor on the end of a cable.

 

[bradtem]

it will be interesting to see how this develops. It is definitely not as simple as just slapping an adaptor on the end of a cable.

Why not -- especially since Tesla designs the cable and stall and connector, they can certainly charge a CCS car by just having an adapter.

Now right now the car locks the connector so the adapter will need to be powered by the connector before it locks, but at a low power level. But it's not that hard, really.

 

[MP3Mike]

All Tesla drivers know it can be fairly hard to get the Tesla cord into their car's port which is right at the rear corner of the car. No other car has the port exactly at that corner (or the opposite front)

Really?

 

[bradtem]

Really?

View attachment 908863

Yes, really. That diagram is oversimplified. The Polestar port is a good foot or more further in than the Tesla. The Ioniq is actually on the right side, not the left -- this diagram is in error or refers to an older one with J1772 there I think.

I don't know about the Peugeot etc. but they are not common on US roads.

As you know, it's work to get the Tesla to plug in. Put the socket a foot or more further and I don't think you will do it, though Tesla could lengthen the cord that much easily enough. For the other cars (including the Hyundai) they would need to lengthen it a lot. Which is doable, but not what we have seen in mock-ups.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

if they make the cables really long like some we have seen one could drive a Tesla in front first and the cable would reach the back of the car. This could make it easier for teslas pulling trailers assuming there was room in the back for the trailer without blocking the lane.

 

[bradtem]

if they make the cables really long like some we have seen one could drive a Tesla in front first and the cable would reach the back of the car. This could make it easier for teslas pulling trailers assuming there was room in the back for the trailer without blocking the lane.

Oh, for sure, long cables are convenient for many uses. But currently Tesla doesn't do them. They can of course, but it has a cost they seem unwilling to pay.

 

[Genie]

Oh, for sure, long cables are convenient for many uses. But currently Tesla doesn't do them. They can of course, but it has a cost they seem unwilling to pay.

They haven’t needed long cords in the Tesla-only days, and using cords that were no longer than necessary made sense. Now that the SuC network may open to all EVs, if the new CCS cords aren’t made long enough then some cars will end up blocking stalls by pulling in however they need to, even perpendicular.
For my 2 cents the CCS stalls would be at one end of the row and a visually distinct charger , drivers would learn which type works for their own vehicle soon enough.

 

[Watts_Up]

They haven’t needed long cords in the Tesla-only days, and using cords that were no longer than necessary made sense. Now that the SuC network may open to all EVs, if the new CCS cords aren’t made long enough then some cars will end up blocking stalls by pulling in however they need to, even perpendicular.
For my 2 cents the CCS stalls would be at one end of the row and a visually distinct charger , drivers would learn which type works for their own vehicle soon enough.

I wonder if it would make more sense to have Tesla Superchargers with CCS plug to be separated from the one with NACS plugs?

- Even with a longer cable, with the current Tesla Supercharger layout, only CCS cars with a rear left plug or front right could be able to get charged.

- So, cars with a CCS plug located at the front left (very common with German cars) or the plug located at the rear right would need using two spots.
Also if the second adjacent Supercharger is not available, the driver with the CCS plug will have to wait until driver with the NACS plug will have left.
What a mess !!!

 

[STS-134]

Tesla cords now use liquid cooling and you can't just stick an extension cord on them.

Sure you could. But you can't use the full 250 kW if you do it, you're limited to the maximum the extension cord can support. Since they only need to support 150 kW in order to get the government money, they could configure the chargers for 150 kW max when using a CCS extension and higher than that only if using the native NACS connector.

 

[bradtem]

I wonder if it would make more sense to have Tesla Superchargers with CCS plug to be separated from the one with NACS plugs?

- Even with a longer cable, with the current Tesla Supercharger layout, only CCS cars with a rear left plug or front right could be able to get charged.

- So, cars with a CCS plug located at the front left (very common with German cars) or the plug located at the rear right would need using two spots.
Also if the second adjacent Supercharger is not available, the driver with the CCS plug will have to wait until driver with the NACS plug will have left.
What a mess !!!

Well, the longer the cable the more cars you can support. By about 15 feet you can do all of them I suspect. There are downsides to making it that long of course -- more cost, more worth stealing, perhaps harder to liquid cool, you need some mechanism to stop it from ending up on the ground where cars will drive over it etc. Tesla's short length is annoying --- I am sure you all have sometimes parked in a way it wouldn't reach because you didn't get the backstop far enough under your bumper -- but it has some advantages.

I think the better approach for Tesla would be to have a locker which contains a CCS extension cord and adapter. Use your app to unlock it, put it on your car and plug in to the regular Tesla cord. They could also sell these to other drivers who could buy an extension cord of just the length needed for their car and no longer. Return the extension cord adapter to the locker when done or face a charge for it. This would not comply with NEVI, though.

They could limit CCS users to 150kW and quite probably will. Truth is 150kW is more than enough for most charging sessions. I find at 250kW that the most I get is 210kW on my model 3, and it doesn't stay up that high for very long, so it saves me only a few minutes. Nice, but not a game changer. Not having paired stalls as in V2 is different, they can slow you down a lot if you go and park next to a Model X that just pulled in empty.

 

[MP3Mike]

I wonder if it would make more sense to have Tesla Superchargers with CCS plug to be separated from the one with NACS plugs?

- Even with a longer cable, with the current Tesla Supercharger layout, only CCS cars with a rear left plug or front right could be able to get charged.

- So, cars with a CCS plug located at the front left (very common with German cars) or the plug located at the rear right would need using two spots.
Also if the second adjacent Supercharger is not available, the driver with the CCS plug will have to wait until driver with the NACS plug will have left.
What a mess !!!

I don't think that Tesla has used longer cables in Europe where some Superchargers are already open. And while there are some issues, it doesn't seem to have caused major issues.

 

[bradtem]

I don't think that Tesla has used longer cables in Europe where some Superchargers are already open. And while there are some issues, it doesn't seem to have caused major issues.

Anybody got more details? Pictures I see show the cords in Europe as not much longer, so there's no way they can reach all the different locations on other cars that I can see. Do those cars just not use these Tesla chargers? Tesla had to open up due to European subsidy regs, but perhaps in the end few non-Teslas charge because the cord won't reach? Tesla can possibly argue it's not their problem, as I am not sure cord length is in the CCS spec, is it?

 

[MP3Mike]

Tesla had to open up due to European subsidy regs

Nope. (Well, there might be a few locations that got subsidies, but the majority that have been open are fully funded by Tesla.)

Pictures I see show the cords in Europe as not much longer, so there's no way they can reach all the different locations on other cars that I can see

I've seen where Taycan drivers will drive over the parking stops so they can get plugged in. And yes they get plenty of non-Tesla use. Sometimes even blocking neighboring stalls.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

Some cars will have to take up two spots.

 

[bradtem]

I have noticed some European stations use kiosks that are in between the stalls with no backstop. That lets a short cable reach a lot more cars, but you need even longer to reach them all.

The EU regulations are a bit confusing. The enabling law demands any public charging stations support at least one CCS2 charger. It is not clear if a Tesla-only station counts as a public station, but Tesla acted as if it did, and switched all their cars to Type 2 and CCS2 starting around 2018, and switched the superchargers. I recall reading that this was due to subsidies that would be available if they make CCS2 stations which others can use, would need to dig deeper on that -- I don't see why they would do this if not for that if the regs allowed Tesla-only stations to stay TPC/NACS.

Indeed, Tesla started opening up stations in Europe to non-T cars, starting with Norway and France and later adding most of the other countries. I don't know how often they are used, but situations like the Audi above would obviously make you angry if the station were full, and they should not want that to happen.

Here in the USA, it's clear the move to support CCS is subsidy driven. If your competitor's charging stations are going to get a $7.5B subsidy while you have to do yours on your own, it's a serious disadvantage, even though your cars can charge at the subsidized stations.

It is telling that Tesla plans to put in almost 17,000 new stalls in the USA in the next two years but only 3,500 supporting CCS. That says they are far from all-in on CCS. Though it could also mean that they expect only low usage of their stations by CCS cars, so why put in more CCS than they need to? Or indeed, with NEVI, more than they will get paid to do, which is 4. Indeed if the average new station is 20 stalls, and 3 of them are dual CCS/NACS, that works out just about right.

What this means though is that the dream of non-T drivers to get access to the superior Supercharger network is not really delivered. Instead they will find they can go to supercharger stations but only 4 of the stations will work for them, and because Teslas can also use them, if the station is high usage they may not gain many of the advantages of SC. (One of the advantages of SC is that because stations are large -- at least 8, usually more -- if one or two break it's no big whoop. When stations are 2 to 4 stalls, problems are much more serious.)

It could be that Tesla's NEVI stations are in fact CCS only (which Tesla drivers with adapters can still use, and they will talk the Tesla protocol.) They might be a special station Tesla makes which is essentially a CCS station with long cord, screen, credit card reader etc. but which draws power from the Tesla cabinets, which are programmed to assure them 150kW. Tesla gets grants to put in these 4 stations, plus bringing in the power, and the master cabinets etc. Tesla makes stations WAY cheaper than the other guys so the subsidy pays for those 4, and a lot of the general infra, and a few of the Tesla only stalls. Win for Tesla. Slight win for CCS drivers.

If Tesla only puts a short cord on the, only a few CCS cars will be able to use them. Tesla can make sure cars can't go sideways at these. Tesla could also put on two short cords, or a magic dock adapter, but the reality is with a $175 adapter, many T drivers will be able to use them just fine.

 

[MP3Mike]

I recall reading that this was due to subsidies that would be available if they make CCS2 stations which others can use, would need to dig deeper on that -- I don't see why they would do this if not for that if the regs allowed Tesla-only stations to stay TPC/NACS.

TPC/NACS was never used in Europe. The regulations require a CCS Type 2 connector on new sites, but it doesn't require that they are open to the public.

One of the advantages of SC is that because stations are large -- at least 8, usually more

Wrong. There are plenty of 4 and 6 stall sites. I in fact I think they just opened a 5 stall site.

Indeed if the average new station is 20 stalls, and 3 of them are dual CCS/NACS, that works out just about right.

That wouldn't be NEVI compliant, as it requires at least 4. I have never seen Tesla open less than a whole site, and don't expect them to start doing that.

It could be that Tesla's NEVI stations are in fact CCS only (which Tesla drivers with adapters can still use, and they will talk the Tesla protocol.)

0% chance. Every stall will have a NACS connector in North America. (Unless they put in third-party charges, like to meet a 350kW requirement.)

 

[bradtem]

TPC/NACS was never used in Europe. The regulations require a CCS Type 2 connector on new sites, but it doesn't require that they are open to the public.

Yes, not NACS. They previously used their own custom modification of the Type 2 connector which could put DC on 2 of the pins, similar to the way with NACS you can use it for both AC and DC fast charge on the same pins. They switched to CCS2 and made an adapter for the older cars.

Wrong. There are plenty of 4 and 6 stall sites. I in fact I think they just opened a 5 stall site.

What's with you? Why write "Wrong" as though you are being authoritative. I recommend a slightly different approach.
It is not wrong, If you look at supercharge.info you will find that new stations are all >8 stalls and most are more. In the USA, out of 2,000 stations only about 60 have fewer than 6 stalls. Obviously I am aware there are these smaller stations -- I have personally charged at 3 of them. But they are the exception, and a minor one. Tesla's style is larger stations and they have opened fewer than 10 stations with 4-5 stalls in the last few years. I actually would like more small stations in areas that have no charging, but they seem to like big ones.

That wouldn't be NEVI compliant, as it requires at least 4. I have never seen Tesla open less than a whole site, and don't expect them to start doing that.

Since I wrote 4 in many places, be a little forgiving of a typo in one place where I wrote 3. I obviously know the number is 4.

0% chance. Every stall will have a NACS connector in North America. (Unless they put in third-party charges, like to meet a 350kW requirement.)

Source? I mean I think that's a reasonable thing they might like to do, and it just means either something like the magic dock or two cables. The magic dock seems like a kludge to me, and not the same "just pull the cord out and insert it in your car" experience they have for NACS. But I don't believe we have a definitive statement from Tesla on design of their CCS capable stations in the USA, but if you have a source on that I would like to see it and we don't need to speculate.

 

[MP3Mike]

Yes, not NACS. They previously used their own custom modification of the Type 2 connector which could put DC on 2 of the pins, similar to the way with NACS you can use it for both AC and DC fast charge on the same pins.

That is actually part of the Type 2 spec, to allow DC on what are normally AC pins. (Tesla did modify it slightly to handle higher current than the Type 2 spec specified.)

What's with you? Why write "Wrong" as though you are being authoritative.

Because it is factually wrong.

I recommend a slightly different approach.
It is not wrong, If you look at supercharge.info you will find that new stations are all >8 stalls and most are more.

Wrong. Here is an example from a new site opened 9 days ago, from the source that you claimed wouldn't show any new sites with less than 8 stalls:

Only 4 stalls. Or are you saying that from today forward Tesla will not install a new site with less than 8 stalls? (If so, where is your source for that?)

One example not good enough? How about one from just under 3 weeks ago?

(Yes, they seem to have started using 8 generally as the smallest new site, but lately they have put in some with only 7, and even the one above with only 4.)

The magic dock seems like a kludge to me, and not the same "just pull the cord out and insert it in your car" experience they have for NACS.

It doesn't seem kludgy at all. You open the Tesla app, activate the stall you want to charge with, pull out the cord, and insert it into your car. Done. (CCS users may not even realize there is an adapter, unless they try to plug their car in before they activate the stall.)

But I don't believe we have a definitive statement from Tesla on design of their CCS capable stations in the USA, but if you have a source on that I would like to see it and we don't need to speculate.

I think the closest we have is Elon mentioning an adapter was most likely in a quarterly call, and him liking this tweet:

 

[bradtem]

I said they were trending to doing larger stations and not doing many small ones and that is the truth. You seem to think it important to point out the few exceptions, on the small slips of quick writing, rather that focus on the real issue, and I am baffled as to why, so am calling it quits. I'm sorry if I have accidentally written 3 instead of 4, or said all when I mean almost all. It doesn't change what's important and I don't feel like debating the unimportant. Tesla has only rarely built small stations, and is doing it even less today. Their announced plan is to deploy 17,000 stalls, 3,500 of them able to support CCS. These are the important numbers.

Plonk.