Tesla making HUGE mistake with Superchargers

[S4WRXTTCS]

The EV market remains Tesla’s too lose. Their achilles heel is customer and car service, which remains dreadful.

As an ex-Tesla owner I'd say the Supercharger network is holding everything up for Tesla.

In fact if I was a non-Tesla EV manufacture I'd have emergency meetings with other non-Tesla EV manufactures on how to fix the Electrify America situation. To plan some kind of course of action to address broken chargers, and to fix issues where they simply don't have enough stalls in a location. They also need to address customer experiences like trying to pay for the session.

Lots of people see Tesla opening their network up as a bad idea because it suddenly makes other car companies more viable, but it still allows Tesla to make money. There is not only reoccurring revenue from energy sold, but any amenities that might be at a location. Plus is a person always ends up at a Tesla charger they're likely going to have Tesla on their mind when it comes to getting another vehicle.

 

[bradtem]

As an ex-Tesla owner I'd say the Supercharger network is holding everything up for Tesla.

In fact if I was a non-Tesla EV manufacture I'd have emergency meetings with other non-Tesla EV manufactures on how to fix the Electrify America situation. To plan some kind of course of action to address broken chargers, and to fix issues where they simply don't have enough stalls in a location. They also need to address customer experiences like trying to pay for the session.

Lots of people see Tesla opening their network up as a bad idea because it suddenly makes other car companies more viable, but it still allows Tesla to make money. There is not only reoccurring revenue from energy sold, but any amenities that might be at a location. Plus is a person always ends up at a Tesla charger they're likely going to have Tesla on their mind when it comes to getting another vehicle.

The problem is selling EV electricity for 3x the price people pay at home is not a business. Hell selling gasoline is barely a business for the retailers. That's why the stations are broken.

 

[ATPMSD]

The problem is selling EV electricity for 3x the price people pay at home is not a business. Hell selling gasoline is barely a business for the retailers. That's why the stations are broken.

The price you pay for electricity at home is far less then the commercial rate. And then there is the cost of maintenance. It will never be the same as the rate you pay at home, unless they raise the cost of electricity for homeowners.

 

[Undecided_2]

The price you pay for electricity at home is far less then the commercial rate. And then there is the cost of maintenance. It will never be the same as the rate you pay at home, unless they raise the cost of electricity for homeowners.

The problem in the U.K. is that electricity and gas has become very expensive. I’m paying 60c per kW at home. It’s about to rise again in October and then reviewed every quarter.

Currently the super chargers are cheaper. For now. Probably as they paid ahead for their energy.

It’s still less than gasoline which is $9.44 per gallon.

 

[cusetownusa]

The problem in the U.K. is that electricity and gas has become very expensive. I’m paying 60c per kW at home. It’s about to rise again in October and then reviewed every quarter.

Currently the super chargers are cheaper. For now. Probably as they paid ahead for their energy.

It’s still less than gasoline which is $9.44 per gallon.

Off topic...but with electricity rates that high does it make sense to get solar? Or is that not feasible for you?

My Off Peak charging rate is around $.05-.09 per KW at home and unfortunately my house isn't situated ideally for solar. I still want it to have energy "independence", but for me I would never get my money's worth. But at $0.60 per kW that would totally changed the equation.

 

[RTPEV]

The problem is selling EV electricity for 3x the price people pay at home is not a business. Hell selling gasoline is barely a business for the retailers. That's why the stations are broken.

This is going to be the next big paradigm to shift...we have to get out of the mode of thinking about fastcharging at a Supercharger or DC fastcharger as being equivalent to charging at home. It's not (well, there is somewhat of an exception).

I can cook a nice, healthy, home cooked meal for a fraction of what I pay for in a restaurant, but I don't see any shortage of restaurants out there.

Being able to charge our cars at home, and for so little cost, seems very new to us, and we've had to get out of the paradigm of making a special trip to fuel our vehicles (and paying a lot for that privilege). Once we've gotten ourselves out of that paradigm, it's hard to get back into it when it comes to fastcharging. But with fastcharging, we're not just paying for electricity, we are paying for convenience (otherwise, yes, we'd just charge at home!)

Of course the big exception is those that have no home charging option. I agree that there needs to be a solution here. I think monthly memberships are one possible solution (but not necessarily the only one). You might end up paying the same amount as you would have without it, but it's easier to accept that there is a savings of not having to own your own equipment (charging station) and a cost associated for not having suitable conditions for charging at home (i.e. dedicated off-street parking). Long term, these issues will need to be worked out so that most have the ability to charge at home, but for the time being a monthly additional cost for those kinds of living arrangements might be necessary (maybe analogous to having to pay to wash your clothes at a laundromat).

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

The problem is selling EV electricity for 3x the price people pay at home is not a business. Hell selling gasoline is barely a business for the retailers. That's why the stations are broken.

The gas station comparison is poor because gas stations have so much more to pay for. A lot of what they pay for is everything they do in addition to selling gas. Plus some gas stations like Chevron have deals with grocery stores where you get gas points buying groceries so obviously that's going to take profit away from the selling of the gas.

Both EA and Tesla stations are typically subsidized by the other business or businesses where the charging stations are located. They have partnerships with companies like Fred Meyer and Walmart. The biggest cost right now is the expansion of the networks which is leveraging money invested by the car companies along with government money.

I don't see any excuse for EA especially when Tesla's network is so reliable.

Going forwards its going to be interesting to see how far Tesla takes selling other things at charging locations. We don't have any of that in WA state, but if it proves more profitable than selling just energy then I expected them to expand on it.

 

[Undecided_2]

Off topic...but with electricity rates that high does it make sense to get solar? Or is that not feasible for you?

My Off Peak charging rate is around $.05-.09 per KW at home and unfortunately my house isn't situated ideally for solar. I still want it to have energy "independence", but for me I would never get my money's worth. But at $0.60 per kW that would totally changed the equation.

Yeah, we’ve just had 8kW installed and a 10kW battery. It’s made a huge difference, we didn’t do it to save money. However, based on the price hikes we’ll get pay back much faster.

I’m glad that we went BEV earlier this year!

 

[bradtem]

The gas station comparison is poor because gas stations have so much more to pay for. A lot of what they pay for is everything they do in addition to selling gas. Plus some gas stations like Chevron have deals with grocery stores where you get gas points buying groceries so obviously that's going to take profit away from the selling of the gas.

Both EA and Tesla stations are typically subsidized by the other business or businesses where the charging stations are located. They have partnerships with companies like Fred Meyer and Walmart. The biggest cost right now is the expansion of the networks which is leveraging money invested by the car companies along with government money.

I don't see any excuse for EA especially when Tesla's network is so reliable.

Going forwards its going to be interesting to see how far Tesla takes selling other things at charging locations. We don't have any of that in WA state, but if it proves more profitable than selling just energy then I expected them to expand on it.

Indeed, I often talk about how different it is from gasoline. Among the key things to understand are that charging is not the sale of a commodity (kwh) it is the sale (barely) of a service, namely charging. Which is why the commodity costs several times as much when delivered at 200kw than it does delivered at 6kw. Fast and slow gas pumps charge about the same price, in fact in almost all cases the price of gasoline varies just a few percent from the most expensive station in town to the cheapest.

Not so kwh (which is not what you're buying) that average 13 cents in the US home, are 29 to 58 cents at superchargers, and range from free to 55 cents at level 2 public chargers, and can be found anywhere on that scale.

Because selling kwh is not what they do. It's what you have at the end, so you want to think about it that way, but how fast they flow and where the charger is (ie. what you can be doing while charging) matter much more.

So Tesla, when they built the SC network, decided to make it free to all customers for life. They built it not to sell kwh or even service, but to make you want to buy a car. EA stations were built because VW had to pay a huge fine. Most Level 2 stations were put in due to subsidies and grants or to look good.

So of course they are often broken. They are not a business.

 

[Mockingbird]

Indeed, I often talk about how different it is from gasoline. Among the key things to understand are that charging is not the sale of a commodity (kwh) it is the sale (barely) of a service, namely charging. Which is why the commodity costs several times as much when delivered at 200kw than it does delivered at 6kw. Fast and slow gas pumps charge about the same price, in fact in almost all cases the price of gasoline varies just a few percent from the most expensive station in town to the cheapest.

Not so kwh (which is not what you're buying) that average 13 cents in the US home, are 29 to 58 cents at superchargers, and range from free to 55 cents at level 2 public chargers, and can be found anywhere on that scale.

Because selling kwh is not what they do. It's what you have at the end, so you want to think about it that way, but how fast they flow and where the charger is (ie. what you can be doing while charging) matter much more.

So Tesla, when they built the SC network, decided to make it free to all customers for life. They built it not to sell kwh or even service, but to make you want to buy a car. EA stations were built because VW had to pay a huge fine. Most Level 2 stations were put in due to subsidies and grants or to look good.

So of course they are often broken. They are not a business.

The reason your analogy doesn't work is that it is missing a critical component.

On-site battery storage would be the analogy of the underground fuel storage tank at a gas station.

 

[Mockingbird]

Tesla simply has no choice, but to open the Supercharger because its competitors would otherwise show up to fill the void.

 

[MP3Mike]

Tesla simply has no choice, but to open the Supercharger because its competitors would otherwise show up to fill the void.

Huh? What?

Tesla has to, because if they don't someone else will provide the necessary infrastructure? That sounds exactly like a reason why Tesla doesn't need to spend the money to open the Supercharger network. Tesla just needs to provide a CCS adapter so that Tesla drivers can take advantage of all of this new infrastructure.

 

[Proppilot]

Already done. See other threads on sourcing the OEM Tesla CCS adapter from Korea. Decent price and lets you take advantage of all the other stations.

 

[MP3Mike]

Already done. See other threads on sourcing the OEM Tesla CCS adapter from Korea. Decent price and lets you take advantage of all the other stations.

It seems that Tesla has put just about a complete stop to the ordering of the OEM Tesla CCS adapter for export from South Korea. (All of the proxy service orders are being cancelled.)

 

[Proppilot]

Goodness ! I should have checked before I posted....sorry ! I see harum.io is now selling a 3rd party Made In China adapter. Would not touch that. To the why.... I wonder why the heck they would shut that down ? Just to keep us captive at Superchargers ? Business works in mysterious ways.....

 

[MP3Mike]

To the why.... I wonder why the heck they would shut that down ? Just to keep us captive at Superchargers ?

Maybe they still have a limited supply of the adapters and need to keep them available for South Korean owners where the Supercharger network isn't as built out as it is here.

 

[Mockingbird]

Huh? What?

Tesla has to, because if they don't someone else will provide the necessary infrastructure? That sounds exactly like a reason why Tesla doesn't need to spend the money to open the Supercharger network. Tesla just needs to provide a CCS adapter so that Tesla drivers can take advantage of all of this new infrastructure.

Imagine that you only sell gas to Ford owners.

That leaves a huge void for your competitor to open right across the street and sell gas to everyone else.

 

[Big Earl]

Tesla simply has no choice, but to open the Supercharger because its competitors would otherwise show up to fill the void.

BS. Tesla is opening the Supercharger network because the competitors can't get their acts together, and Tesla's mission requires that other EVs be successful. Electrify America is a mess, with (according to you) an inability to get utility transformers to expand the network, and (also according to you) an inability to get parts to replace broken components in the existing network.

In my opinion, the competition has done more to sour consumers on EVs than promote and enable the transition.

 

[Mockingbird]

BS. Tesla is opening the Supercharger network because the competitors can't get their acts together, and Tesla's mission requires that other EVs be successful. Electrify America is a mess, with (according to you) an inability to get utility transformers to expand the network, and (also according to you) an inability to get parts to replace broken components in the existing network.

In my opinion, the competition has done more to sour consumers on EVs than promote and enable the transition.

Everything is a mess right now because of the global supply chain issue.

That is not going to last forever.

 

[Mockingbird]

Tesla is the EV equivalent of the biggest gas station chain.

What Tesla needs to do to maximize profit is to prevent rival chains from muscling in.