Tesla recalls 2 million vehicles to limit use of Autopilot

[S3XYSCAR]

My wife took delivery of a new Model Y a few days ago and I believe it already has this “recall” fix. I was wondering why Autosteer was so different than my 3, which I haven’t updated in a few months.

For those wondering what the fix entails

1. FSD beta style lockout. After 5 disengagements for not addressing nags, you cannot use Autosteer for some period of time
2. More nags, both to pay attention to the road and to keep your hands on the wheel. You have to look at the screen to know what it wants you to do. Sometimes the nags are instant when you engage Autosteer. For example, if you engage Autosteer while looking at the screen you get instant beeps.
3. More prominent nags on the screen. They now show at the top of the visualization initially instead of the bottom.
4. Option/setting for simplified Autosteer engagement with single pull
5. If single pull is enabled, it also simplifies disengagement by no longer switching you to TACC if you disengage by turning the wheel
6. Thankfully I haven’t yet noticed any difference on where it allows Autosteer to be engaged, though I haven’t done a ton of testing

I’m not looking forward to more nags, but it would be helpful if they are more obvious so I don’t miss them in the first place. But depending where they are, they could be hidden by my steering wheel.

Disabling Autosteer by manually turning the steering wheel to change lanes and not having TACC remain on is so dangerous. All of a sudden, you start decelerating rapidly. Or you get way to close to the car in front of you and maybe emergency braking kicks in. I wouldn’t go with the single pull engage, because I really don’t like the full disengage.

 

[FireFighterHil]

Or the 4 yr old kid playing in the car as mom walks away and dad is in the back seat on his phone.

So the kid should just be smarter?

Or have less negligent parents! Is it an automakers fault when negligent parents leave their babies in the car and forget about them? Should the government mandate all cars have a detection feature? Like I said in the beginning, protecting stupid people, and their offspring. And at the same time discouraging personal accountability.

 

[JHCCAZ]

...
Disabling Autosteer by manually turning the steering wheel to change lanes and not having TACC remain on is so dangerous. All of a sudden, you start decelerating rapidly. Or you get way to close to the car in front of you and maybe emergency braking kicks in. I wouldn’t go with the single pull engage, because I really don’t like the full disengage.

I tend to agree with you, but you should be aware that there have been several on-and-off discussions here, in which people say quite the opposite: that it is dangerous to disengage Autosteer but still have the car power purposely forward.

• For one, because the driver might expect that a disengagement would/should result in fully manual operation - as it does with a brake pedal disengagement or a deliberate stalk/button disengagement.
• For another, that for the first few moments of the TACC non-autosteer operation, it's not intrinsically obvious that the car is not steering itself. If the driver didn't hear or recognize the the name disengagement chime, he may continue to relax about the steering control and then be unpleasantly surprised when he realizes he's drifting toward a curb or another car.
  • The rather strong regen-slowdown effect of a full disengagement is also an unpleasant surprise, but much more immediately obvious.

Either way, it's not great when the car behaves differently from your expectation. It's one of those things that is guaranteed to generate disagreement, and any one individual's opinion might be formed by the first unpleasant surprise he gets - in either the steering-drift or the sudden-slowdown case.

The general name for this problem in ADAS systems is "Mode Confusion". I'm no big fan of Missy Cummings who was a controversial appointee as a safety adviser to NHTSA a couple of years ago, and brought with her a distinct agenda against the Tesla effort. But to be fair, one of her valid criticisms of ADAS systems is the possibility of Mode Confusion. And this whole question of what happens when you drop out of Autosteer, the fact that it depends on exactly how you dropped out, whether and when you understand you dropped out, and (now) what settings you (or someone else) has selected in the current profile - is a good illustration of why Mode Confusion is a legitimate concern.

 

[drtimhill]

Can anyone please explain, to someone highly unfamiliar with the Tesla driver assistance ecosystem, what any of this means?

I am confused by all the terminology. Autopilot, Autosteer, Full Self Driving. I thought AutoPilot was basically just what we Ford folks call "lane centering" plus "adaptive cruise control." But hands have to stay on, as monitored by a torque sensor (and maybe cabin cam, too?) Whereas Full Self Driving is AutoPilot plus it changes lanes on the highway and actually makes turns and stops at signs and lights - basically "full self driving"... except that you're still supposed to keep your hands on the wheel (did not know this)?

I am confused by what driver monitoring is required for all of these things. I though Full Self Driving allowed you to drive hand free, like BlueCruise, but apparently not? What role does the torque sensor play for these things? What role does the cabin sensor play?

What is the OTA update going to do to make any of these things safer?

Not trying to flame - I'm genuinely curious and would appreciate non-fanboi answers. Thanks!

Yes, it can be confusing, and is made worse by Tesla changing the terminology over time.

"Autopilot", "Enhanced Autopilot", and "FSD Capability" (also known as FSD beta) are essentially options packages, each of which includes some set of features to do with ADAS and/or some level of autonomous driving. However, the press (and sometimes Tesla) tends to use "Autopilot" as an umbrella term for any and all of these features. The exact feature set of each package has varied over time, but can be more or less split up as follows (from simple to more complex):

• Basic ADAS features, like emergency braking etc. These come as standard on all cars now.
• Traffic Aware Cruise Control (TACC), which is a basic cruise control with auto car following/speed control.
• Autosteer, which adds lane-keeping to TACC, allowing the car to drive unassisted on freeways (staying in one lane).
• Navigate on Autopilot (NoA), which lets the car do its own freeway lane changes and negotiate freeway intersections unassisted.
• Full Self Driving Beta (FSDb), which lets the car drive itself on city streets and handle most day-to-day driving tasks.

There are other features also, such as auto park, which come in one or more of the packages.

The recall seems to mostly address people who have been using Autosteer on non-freeways (rural roads etc), for which it was NOT designed (FSDb however, IS designed for this). Mostly this is in the form of added nags to ensure drivers are aware of the limitations of the system and where it is appropriate to use. There is some discussion about the car detecting when drivers abuse the features, with automatic disables should this occur (FSD has had this for some time, but Autosteer/NoA have not).

 

[CMPT PAD]

I don't see FSD called out - I see Autopilot and specifically Autosteer - which is available under beta for free with AP (not FSD), as the culprit here. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see how this impacts the full FSD stack per se.

Tesla Autosteer 101: All You Need to Know! - Tesla Tale

What is Tesla Autosteer and how does it work? If you are asking these queries, then, read this guide to understand its ins and outs!

teslatale.com

I think "Autosteer" function is under the umbrella of Autopilot, is it not?
IMO the general term "recall" being used in public is not correct. Recall generally means "bring your car in to be fixed". In this case the fixing would be OTA, am I correct?
Sometimes? - for whatever reasons- the Autopilot disengaged and driver thinks otherwise?
Can we setup so that if the Autopilot disengaged we could hear a sound instead of just losing the blue lines on screens?
Thanks Pros

 

[OxBrew]

Or have less negligent parents! Is it an automakers fault when negligent parents leave their babies in the car and forget about them? Should the government mandate all cars have a detection feature? Like I said in the beginning, protecting stupid people, and their offspring. And at the same time discouraging personal accountability.

This is totally OT, but even excellent parents can have a moment of honest distraction, no one's perfect.That's why the regulations say auto windows can't strangle your kid. Been that way for decades. Not even a close argument.

 

[OxBrew]

Tesla Autosteer 101: All You Need to Know! - Tesla Tale

What is Tesla Autosteer and how does it work? If you are asking these queries, then, read this guide to understand its ins and outs!

teslatale.com

I think "Autosteer" function is under the umbrella of Autopilot, is it not?
IMO the general term "recall" being used in public is not correct. Recall generally means "bring your car in to be fixed". In this case the fixing would be OTA, am I correct?
Sometimes? - for whatever reasons- the Autopilot disengaged and driver thinks otherwise?
Can we setup so that if the Autopilot disengaged we could hear a sound instead of just losing the blue lines on screens?
Thanks Pros

Recall can mean any kind or repair in the new paradigm with OTA updates. I don't know why everyone is getting all bunched up about the word "recall."

It's a legally required repair or update. It simply no longer means you have to take the car in, or don't have to take it in.

It's a recall. OK, whatever, get over it. The word has a new meaning.

 

[CMPT PAD]

On the subject of Autopilot
(1) It took me a few months to feel comfortable and trust what it would do , I am not young as most of you so that's the way it is
(2) I use Autopilot ONLY when I feel comfortable with the path
(3) I don't use Autopilot to turn left and right in town or exit on highway (my car does not have FSD nor I need it).
It seems like car self-guides to the lane to turn right later than what I would do, So I always take it over to turn right (or left)
Question to you Pros; how far in advance your car was guided into the lane BEFORE your right/left turn or exit in highway/freeway?

Thanks pros

 

[beatle]

Cars don't have to have FSD to have Autopilot.

Yes I know that, but the AP1 system has been free from nerfs and updates for many years, so this is an interesting change.

 

[diplomat33]

The Feds are at fault with the semantics, not CNN. “Recall” is still the word for it. I think everyone here is pretty much agreed that OTA should have its own, less-alarming term in the law, but it doesn’t yet.
The semantics of this have been discussed endlessly on the forum. The point with this one is larger though, than the typical minor OTA thing. This is a big limiter on our autopilot and a huge shift within the industry and regulation etc. I think at some point the feds, the judges, industry and lawyers etc are going to have to agree with Tesla’s main point on this stuff: The driver has a responsibility to keep their hands on the wheel and stay alert.
If not, there can be and are accidents even on the finest divided interstate in board daylight and perfect conditions.
If the feds and courts can’t agree on that, autopilot and even pretty basic lane keeping can’t really exist.

I get that. I still say the CNN headline was worded in a fearmonger way. When you say 2M vehicles are being recalled because of 1000 crashes, most people will read that and think "OMG, every Tesla is being removed from public roads because they are death traps". And that is not what is actually happening.

And yes, the driver is responsible and should always be alert. I think everyone agrees on that. The issue is that Tesla's driver monitoring has not been as effective as it should be at making sure the driver is alert. And Tesla is responsible for that. Tesla needs to make the driver monitoring more robust and I think that is what this "recall" is trying to do.

 

[SO16]

I get that. I still say the CNN headline was worded in a fearmonger way. When you say 2M vehicles are being recalled because of 1000 crashes, most people will read that and think "OMG, every Tesla is being removed from public roads because they are death traps". And that is not what is actually happening.

And yes, the driver is responsible and should always be alert. I think everyone agrees on that. The issue is that Tesla's driver monitoring has not been as effective as it should be at making sure the driver is alert. And Tesla is responsible for that. Tesla needs to make the driver monitoring more robust and I think that is what this "recall" is trying to do.

My local news mentioned the recall twice but never stated it was an OTA update. Anyone listening would think all the cars needed to be brought in for service.

 

[JB47394]

I don't know why everyone is getting all bunched up about the word "recall."

I think most of it is knowing that media will headline their articles with "recall", then explain that it's an over-the-air update of the software in the article. But web troglodytes will see the headline and not read the article (because reading articles is for losers), and then go off and pronounce on how Teslas are badly built. Everyone knows that recalls are for things like engines throwing a rod, seatbelts that don't work, etc.

I just watched a lengthy video from some joker who was telling his viewers that a Kia EV was going to need a replacement battery and it would cost more than the original price of the car. No statistics on what it costs to replace batteries in EVs, nor on the odds of needing to replace a battery, no information on different suppliers, trends over time, etc. Just that one anecdote. What were the comments like? "Thanks for this wonderful explanation. Now I know the truth." People who think EVs are bad will latch onto anything to reinforce that mindset.

My eyes roll so often over EV misinformation that I'm worried about my vision.

 

[diplomat33]

My local news mentioned the recall twice but never stated it was an OTA update. Anyone listening would think all the cars needed to be brought in for service.

Thanks. That is my point. People think "recall" means taking your car in for service. That is why I think news service need to mention that this is an OTA "recall", not a physical recall.

 

[fholbert]

I get that. I still say the CNN headline was worded in a fearmonger way. When you say 2M vehicles are being recalled because of 1000 crashes, most people will read that and think "OMG, every Tesla is being removed from public roads because they are death traps". And that is not what is actually happening.

It would appear to me your issue is not with the press. It’s with the English language.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

OT sidebar: I also don’t have wifi where I park.

And I have been looking at the stupid orange “update is available“ icon for the past six weeks.

Finally, after two attempts to download the latest navigation update via my phone (as wifi hotspot), I did the 17 minute drive to the Tesla service center parking lot and used their wifi (which took 15 minutes) to download the new nav data and clear that bothersome icon.

It would be useful if Tesla informed us about the size of the downloads. Last year my data plan was 60GB for the year. So for the last 3 months it was clear I wouldn't run out of data and I started to do updates in our visitors parking lot with good LTE signal (we once dangled our router over the balcony railing attempting to connect to our home wifi so this was much better!) Through that, I learned most are under 1GB but beware of NAV updates. For that one, it stopped twice because it ran up against the monthly limits I had imposed on myself and I didn't realize I needed to remove them to proceed.

Since then I've found some crowd-sourced descriptions of the size of downloads (you and I aren't the only ones in this situation) but, just like with voice commands, I feel it is Tesla's responsibility to let the owners know details. If I was an investor I'd be thrilled that Tesla has outsourced so much of its work to the user-community (proper documentation, marketing) but as an owner it is one of my hates about Tesla.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

Recall can mean any kind or repair in the new paradigm with OTA updates. I don't know why everyone is getting all bunched up about the word "recall."

It's a legally required repair or update. It simply no longer means you have to take the car in, or don't have to take it in.

It's a recall. OK, whatever, get over it. The word has a new meaning.

I'm pretty sure I had a 'recall' on one of my vehicles which was a series of pages mailed to me and I was to put them in the owner's manual. The wording of something (I don't recall what) was confusing and that precipitated a recall.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

It would appear to me your issue is not with the press. It’s with the English language.

Or the will to understand that the English language. Which, of course, led to the recall in the first place because had Tesla drivers used the Autosteer feature where the manual clearly, in the user's language, outlined where and how the feature was to be used, there would be no need for a recall. But because certain people refuse to believe that what is written applies to them, we are now facing an OTA update to add add punishment to those who refuse to follow the instructions.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

Do I have to drive it to the service station or will it drive itself?

jk

Maybe.

A long time ago in a galaxy far away, Buick once did a recall for errors in a model's owner manual. Owners were instructed to schedule an appointment with a dealer. The only thing the dealer did was put a new owner's manual in the glove box and remove the original if still there and of course try to sell new tires, wipers, etc and various services. LoL

 

[OxBrew]

Or the will to understand that the English language. Which, of course, led to the recall in the first place because had Tesla drivers used the Autosteer feature where the manual clearly, in the user's language, outlined where and how the feature was to be used, there would be no need for a recall. But because certain people refuse to believe that what is written applies to them, we are now facing an OTA update to add add punishment to those who refuse to follow the instructions.

This is not even remotely true. AP is unsafe, needs better limits on use, and MUCH more clear design of the UI and mode status. Tesla sucks at all that, because brain drain, and over working engineers.

This is way over due.

ME with 25 years working with legit UI designers in safety critical operations. And toys. Toy design was more fun than engine heaters and e-bikes, maybe I should go back to that. lol.

 

[FordMME]

Your description of these terms is generally correct. On your next question, while FSD does enable car to make turns, stop at lights, etc. on city streets, driver attention is still required (via dashcam and steering wheel monitoring).

On your final point, the OTA is intended to make standard AutoPilot safer by enforcing more strict driver attention and perhaps restricting use on city streets (where it shouldn't be used). Importantly, standard AutoPilot can be enabled today on city streets but will not stop at lights / signs, etc. Therefore, poor driver behavior and inattention can lead to bad results.

Thank you. This is all very interesting. I also read the description of the various offerings here: https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot

So even basic Autopilot supposedly has "Autosteer" (per the linked material), but what Autosteer is seems to depend on whether you've got AP, Enhanced AP, or FSD?

It looks to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Autosteer with standard AP is basically just what we Ford folks would call "lane centering." If the MobileEye camera system can read the lane markers, it'll "steer" enough to keep you centered in the lane, but it isn't going to take turns, stop at signs, etc. Currently, my Mach E can use the lane centering and adaptive cruise control (now confusingly referred to as "Hands-ON BlueCruise") anywhere we want. City, highway, whatever. But we have an eye sensor that'll ping you if you look away from the road for more than 5 seconds (it works remarkably well), and a torque sensor that'll nag if it doesn't detect a hand on the wheel for 8 seconds. The torque sensor isn't perfect - it'll sometimes nag even if you do have a hand lightly on the wheel.

Enhanced AP looks like the car will basically drive itself on highways, including automatic lane changes, ramp to ramp, plus a few other party tricks (summon, etc.) This is slightly better than "Hands-Free BlueCruise," (the newest HFBC 1.3 will suggest lane changes and execute them on command, but doesn't do them automatically), but HFBC has the significant advantage of being truly hands-free. The torque sensor is deactivated on these divided highways and relies solely on the infrared eye sensor. It works well. Ford has proposed charging $800/yr for HFBC, but I don't think that price is going to stick. I have the ability to renew my free trial of HFBC for $600 total (plus tax, LOL) for a three-year term, which seems much more reasonable. Enhanced AP costs $99 a month?! Dayum.

Then with FSD, you get all the above, but the car drives itself on city streets (takes turns, stops at signs, etc.) For $199/mo a month. And you still technically have to keep your hands on the wheel. Plus there's a cabin cam which may not work so great in low light situations? Plus there's a strike system which can really eff with people based on false strikes?

So do I have all that right? And if I do, here's my next question... If Tesla significantly tightens up its torque sensor with this "recall" to be more in line with Ford's (that's my suspicion), nagging you after a few seconds of not detecting a hand... wouldn't that make the Enhanced AP and FSD offerings a lot less appealing? If you have to keep a hand on the wheel, what is the value? Or do you think Tesla might try to use the cabin cam to bypass the torque sensor (like HFBC)? Or maybe Tesla is only going to tighten things up on city streets, as some are speculating, but boy it seems like if you're going to require a torque sensor, period, you wouldn't want to differentiate between city and highway!

Update: I just saw @drtimhill 's post above, which seems to comport with my understanding (I think LOL).