Tesla sales continue downwards trend in Europe

[Bouba]

Stalkless wouldn’t bother me…in fact I remember when my Ford went stalkless…it had a little hole drilled in the stalk intended for it to break…and guess what it would break. Ever since then I have always been wary of stalks. The other thing was eventually after some use the contact surface would wear and stop working

 

[UkNorthampton]

I wasn't aware Tesla was a charity.

As I'm sure you're aware Tesla lower prices when profits on a product line get beyond a certain point. At different times this has happened for cars, Megapacks and Superchargers.

Despite this, Tesla have generally had great Gross Margins. Unlike others, cost of producing products was intended to at least cover cost of materials (after initial ramp). Compare this to Ford, Rivian etc who lose huge amounts of money on each vehicle, disincentivising them to sell more. So these carmakers won't be transformative in terms of renewable energy.

[As an aside...Ford switching to hybrids. Hybrid batteries are smaller, cycle more often and so fail earlier.]

As far as I am aware, only Tesla make a profit on EVs, BYD may make a profit, but it's clouded by the hybrids' profits.

 

[UkNorthampton]

Stalkless wouldn’t bother me…in fact I remember when my Ford went stalkless…it had a little hole drilled in the stalk intended for it to break…and guess what it would break. Ever since then I have always been wary of stalks. The other thing was eventually after some use the contact surface would wear and stop working

Fix Or Repair Daily (FORD). Planned obsolescence is in many vehicle makes or COMPONENTS. It's in the component suppliers' interest to fail, even during a carmaker warranty as long as the supplier's warranty to the manufacturer is exceeded in enough cases. A few free replacements are fine in order to optimise selling new ECUs over time. Keeps dealers happy too. Never mind the poor mug who loses out on a day's work, stress over childcare, unexpected costs & huge inconvenience.

Teslas are designed for much longer lives than most other cars. Stalkless helps with this. I personally would prefer stalks on a new car, but after 200,000 miles or 400,000 Milton Keynes roundabouts (whichever comes first)?

Probably stalks are worn out.

 

[FastLaneJB]

As I'm sure you're aware Tesla lower prices when profits on a product line get beyond a certain point. At different times this has happened for cars, Megapacks and Superchargers.

Despite this, Tesla have generally had great Gross Margins. Unlike others, cost of producing products was intended to at least cover cost of materials (after initial ramp). Compare this to Ford, Rivian etc who lose huge amounts of money on each vehicle, disincentivising them to sell more. So these carmakers won't be transformative in terms of renewable energy.

[As an aside...Ford switching to hybrids. Hybrid batteries are smaller, cycle more often and so fail earlier.]

As far as I am aware, only Tesla make a profit on EVs, BYD may make a profit, but it's clouded by the hybrids' profits.

Do you ever look out of the Tesla bubble you live in? I almost feel like your an AI powered bot added to the forum to preach Tesla.

Sales dropped 55% in the last quarter, YoY. They have a massive demand problem which is why they've also had to cut output in factories and offer discounts.

Margins have dropped, not gone up so high they felt bad about milking all their customers so gave us a bit of a price cut. Now I will agree that changes they make to cars, like the Highland strip cost out so while we do get some nice things like rear screen, ambient lights and cooled seats it's still cheaper to make than before I imagine. Hence Margins aren't as bad as they could be.

Most of that margin dip is from their prices in China. They have to almost give them away in the price war there just to try to maintain sales.

 

[Bouba]

Do you ever look out of the Tesla bubble you live in? I almost feel like your an AI powered bot added to the forum to preach Tesla.

Sales dropped 55% in the last quarter, YoY. They have a massive demand problem which is why they've also had to cut output in factories and offer discounts.

Margins have dropped, not gone up so high they felt bad about milking all their customers so gave us a bit of a price cut. Now I will agree that changes they make to cars, like the Highland strip cost out so while we do get some nice things like rear screen, ambient lights and cooled seats it's still cheaper to make than before I imagine. Hence Margins aren't as bad as they could be.

Most of that margin dip is from their prices in China. They have to almost give them away in the price war there just to try to maintain sales.

Model Y production is being cut because they are retooling for Juniper…they did the same to the M3 just before the introduction of Highland

 

[FastLaneJB]

Model Y production is being cut because they are retooling for Juniper…they did the same to the M3 just before the introduction of Highland

And where did you get that information from? When they did Highland there were plenty of sightings of the car before they retooled the factory. You have to test it first before you retool your production lines.

I suspect we'll start seeing camouflaged Model Y's later this year.

 

[gangzoom]

Teslas are designed for much longer lives than most other cars. Stalkless helps with this. I personally would prefer stalks on a new car, but after 200,000 miles or 400,000 Milton Keynes roundabouts (whichever comes first)?

I love our X, but if you want a car that lasts forever buy a Prius (or any Toyota hybrid). Our X has a repair list longer than anything I have ever owned before (or probably will own again). My next car purchase will probably be a Lexus RX, it’s boring, but it comfy, and will likely last a lifetime (literally).

 

[Bouba]

I love our X, but if you want a car that lasts forever buy a Prius (or any Toyota hybrid). Our X has a repair list longer than anything I have ever owned before (or probably will own again). My next car purchase will probably be a Lexus RX, it’s boring, but it comfy, and will likely last a lifetime (literally).

I haven’t been a Tesla owner for anywhere near as long as you…I’ve had my M3LR for only three years….and it’s list of repairs is…zero. It has never had a problem and touch wood I’m hoping it stays that way…it has so far proven to be an extremely reliable car

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

And where did you get that information from? When they did Highland there were plenty of sightings of the car before they retooled the factory. You have to test it first before you retool your production lines.

I suspect we'll start seeing camouflaged Model Y's later this year.

There did seem to be a update seen (albeit for China) which seemed to disappear but started the initial riumours.

But I'd agree, and I think a slow down in production could be attributed to over supply as much as Juniper coming, It depends if you're an eternal optomist on all matters Tesla or have a more negative view in how you interpret these things and could easily be a bit of both

 

[yessuz]

The cost of making Teslas in China goes down over time due to a range of reasons

1. Efficiencies that Tesla and their suppliers introduce in a way that no other car company can do - multiple improvements every day, trialled on a few cars, tracked via digital twin, homologated via twin & rolled out if successful (Agile Hardware). [Joe Justice, Munro Associates for more info]
2. Cheaper battery prices - as low as $57 per kWh for automotive LFP have been reported at cell level. CATL supplied whole Tesla LFP packs saving Tesla money, time and space. I'm not sure who is currently supplying Tesla LFP and in what proportion in each location. I believe that both CATL and BYD have been or are suppliers. LFP is 50% (maybe more) of Teslas now [Jeff Lutz]
3. Non Tesla car companies have collapsed their orders leading to Tesla being regarded as a tough but fair customer - most importantly dependable. Tesla can utilise this [Jeff Lutz]
4. Deflation in Chinese factory output prices for many companies including Tesla View attachment 1053237

Tesla are winning in China and have the knowledge, tools, products and preparation to withstand any wave of Chinese imports. BYD Seal & Tesla prices not much different. Teslas are competitive (in my opinion) in all their main markets.

Much of this applies to other Tesla manufacturing hubs such as Berlin.

This has resulted in 10% price cuts for Teslas in some markets such as Norway (and Australia I believe) while using subsidised interest rates in others. Subsidised interest rates tend to work better in markets that use debt to buy cars, cash reduction better in other markets. In the UK, subsidised interest rates have less effect on second-hand prices and there's a huge supply of Model Ys coming up on the secondary market from leases ending. Luckily demand for second-hand Teslas is up hugely - but I could see Tesla UK preferring lower interest rates for the moment.

What does this mean for the future? Tesla will stay competitive, dominating EV market pricing in their key markets. EV prices will continue to fall while those who understand Total Cost of Ownership and that EVs are better vehicles will buy EVs again. Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) economics fails as suppliers are squeezed from lower prices from desperate ICE car makers and lower volumes. Plant can't be used optimally, Headquarters and other overhead costs become supplier-killing.

The title of this thread has been debunked in my opinion. For those keeping an open mind, I'd suggest weighing up info in the thread versus headlines that often don't match articles (writers don't choose headlines). Headlines are often chosen by others for clickbait - indeed there are often different headlines that are tested and the most negative often wins due to human nature. This process is now automated or aided by Artificial Intelligence (AI) - so

1. Headlines often don't match article
2. Article often doesn't match data
3. Multiple fear-related headlines are pumped out for the less discerning to be caught out by
4. Most effective (often most inaccurate) headline wins.

Yeah, right.

Many years ago I was working for DIY company.

I have found a product in china which was about 1/10th Of the current cost of the product we sell, and was an alternative (,no branding in original or mine) and wass selling reasonable well.

I introduced that product from china to my market which cost me 1/10th of the cost of the original... Guess, what price it was )))

so yeah, as businesses are charities, once their costs drop but demand stays up, then they reduce price as the will and most definitely not running to be bank laughing all the way. that's for sure.

 

[yessuz]

Model Y production is being cut because they are retooling for Juniper…they did the same to the M3 just before the introduction of Highland

did they? as far as I remember, model 3 was pumping out as much as possible even before highland coming up, and discounts where available to the existing inventory only

 

[UkNorthampton]

I love our X, but if you want a car that lasts forever buy a Prius (or any Toyota hybrid). Our X has a repair list longer than anything I have ever owned before (or probably will own again). My next car purchase will probably be a Lexus RX, it’s boring, but it comfy, and will likely last a lifetime (literally).

Toyota hybrid batteries last longer than most, but will fail as they cycle so often. Cycle life is very important. Prius batteries are different chemistry from some other hybrids, but still it's an uphill battle.

Toyota/Lexus are involved in lots of unreported scandals. Quality, forged safety testing for 30+ years, emissions cheating, massive recalls, metal shavings left in engines, fraud, finance and engineering taking second fiddle to cost savings.

Systemic failings at Toyota for years - it's following a similar path to Boeing. Why isn't this turned into a constant stream of FUD? If Tesla had a FRACTION of the problems that Toyota have, it would fill the media. For those who look at genuine information - regarding recalls, quality and a host of factors - IMO and probably objectively Toyota/Lexus are more of a risk than Tesla.

 

[UkNorthampton]

Do you ever look out of the Tesla bubble you live in? I almost feel like your an AI powered bot added to the forum to preach Tesla.

Sales dropped 55% in the last quarter, YoY. They have a massive demand problem which is why they've also had to cut output in factories and offer discounts.

Margins have dropped, not gone up so high they felt bad about milking all their customers so gave us a bit of a price cut. Now I will agree that changes they make to cars, like the Highland strip cost out so while we do get some nice things like rear screen, ambient lights and cooled seats it's still cheaper to make than before I imagine. Hence Margins aren't as bad as they could be.

Most of that margin dip is from their prices in China. They have to almost give them away in the price war there just to try to maintain sales.

Lay off the personal attack. It's a sign that you've lost the argument and it's against TMC rules.

I've laid out counter arguments and believe your conclusions are flawed. It just seems to be relying on biased media headlines rather than based on facts. When you see a headline or article - just consider what message they are trying to imprint on readers and for what purpose.

Tesla work closely with suppliers to constantly reduce costs. Tesla are very highly integrated, perhaps only BYD has more internal production of components, but they have a large product range with only some commonality as much of it isn't Battery EV anyway.

I've spent a lot of time in technology, supply chains, consulting at many levels. I'm used to complex multi-dimensional problems.

False headlines aren't a way to navigate life successfully. We've all seen where that has led.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Mod comment: please avoid the personal stuff and if you’re making an argument then evidence points always help, both for and against

 

[SO16]

I love our X, but if you want a car that lasts forever buy a Prius (or any Toyota hybrid). Our X has a repair list longer than anything I have ever owned before (or probably will own again). My next car purchase will probably be a Lexus RX, it’s boring, but it comfy, and will likely last a lifetime (literally).

Even Elon calls the X the “faberge egg” of vehicles. So I wouldn’t really judge all teslas that way. My 2017 MS with over 116k miles has had very little work done.

 

[UkNorthampton]

Yeah, right.

Many years ago I was working for DIY company.

I have found a product in china which was about 1/10th Of the current cost of the product we sell, and was an alternative (,no branding in original or mine) and wass selling reasonable well.

I introduced that product from china to my market which cost me 1/10th of the cost of the original... Guess, what price it was )))

so yeah, as businesses are charities, once their costs drop but demand stays up, then they reduce price as the will and most definitely not running to be bank laughing all the way. that's for sure.

Tesla:

Our goal when we created Tesla a decade ago was the same as it is today: to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport by bringing compelling mass market electric cars to market as soon as possible

I'll ask you and others reading this thread... do you think Tesla operates as you and your DIY company did? Honestly?

People can be jaded because of their experiences - I certainly suffered from working with unscrupulous executives & sales people. Technologists are a joy in comparison.

ZapMap graph below, ZapMap don't include Tesla chargers in these calculations, not even the open to all CCS2 ones. Where would Tesla be on this graph? Cheaper than AC chargers!


Ask yourself this - what price would DC chargers be if Tesla Superchargers were either

1) Priced as high as competition?
2) Didn't exist?

Tesla keep a lid on expensive DC charging. They also do the same for EVs from other brands (which as far as we know lose money on every car they make as the materials/labour costs are higher than the sale prices). How much would a BMW or Audi EV cost if Tesla didn't influence them? When Tesla lower prices, competitors normally do the same. Yet Tesla still make a profit on each car in a way that others cannot.

I chose a random Tesla Supercharger - I think I've seen prices as low as 24-28p at certain times at some Tesla sites.

Newport Pagnell Services (Southbound) EV charging point, Newport Pagnell - Zapmap - compare prices to others nearby Electric vehicle (EV) charging points in Newport Pagnell - Zapmap
Non-Tesla prices (never mind reliability etc)

• 60p,
• 66p + connection charge,
• 77p,
• 39-60p (slow charger),
• 79p,
• 45p (Fuuse - really? 2 slow and 2 fast only one price given),
• 55p + connection charge of 50p

[Tesla] Typically 45p/kWh, prices vary dependent on charge rate, location and time of use.

 

[UkNorthampton]

Do you ever look out of the Tesla bubble you live in? I almost feel like your an AI powered bot added to the forum to preach Tesla.

Sales dropped 55% in the last quarter, YoY. They have a massive demand problem which is why they've also had to cut output in factories and offer discounts.

Margins have dropped, not gone up so high they felt bad about milking all their customers so gave us a bit of a price cut. Now I will agree that changes they make to cars, like the Highland strip cost out so while we do get some nice things like rear screen, ambient lights and cooled seats it's still cheaper to make than before I imagine. Hence Margins aren't as bad as they could be.

Most of that margin dip is from their prices in China. They have to almost give them away in the price war there just to try to maintain sales.

55% - which source. market? When I search I can find 55% profit drop - but that's excluding all sorts of spending such as one of the world's biggest AI computing clusters.

"Down 2.3% since April 2023" from the earlier source. Is that what you meant? Please correct your post if it is in error.

 

[yessuz]

Tesla:



I'll ask you and others reading this thread... do you think Tesla operates as you and your DIY company did? Honestly?

People can be jaded because of their experiences - I certainly suffered from working with unscrupulous executives & sales people. Technologists are a joy in comparison.

ZapMap graph below, ZapMap don't include Tesla chargers in these calculations, not even the open to all CCS2 ones. Where would Tesla be on this graph? Cheaper than AC chargers!


Ask yourself this - what price would DC chargers be if Tesla Superchargers were either

1) Priced as high as competition?
2) Didn't exist?

Tesla keep a lid on expensive DC charging. They also do the same for EVs from other brands (which as far as we know lose money on every car they make as the materials/labour costs are higher than the sale prices). How much would a BMW or Audi EV cost if Tesla didn't influence them? When Tesla lower prices, competitors normally do the same. Yet Tesla still make a profit on each car in a way that others cannot.

I chose a random Tesla Supercharger - I think I've seen prices as low as 24-28p at certain times at some Tesla sites.

Newport Pagnell Services (Southbound) EV charging point, Newport Pagnell - Zapmap - compare prices to others nearby Electric vehicle (EV) charging points in Newport Pagnell - Zapmap
Non-Tesla prices (never mind reliability etc)

• 60p,
• 66p + connection charge,
• 77p,
• 39-60p (slow charger),
• 79p,
• 45p (Fuuse - really? 2 slow and 2 fast only one price given),
• 55p + connection charge of 50p

View attachment 1053367

yes, of course. You can post 55 page down charts and other nonsense as long as you want.

I mean you can believe any BS you want, you can even be blinded by eternal wisdom light of Elon, but in reality there are 2 things now:
1) each and every company which is not non-profit has the only target - is to increase value for it's shareholders. is it a long term or short term target, it does not matter.
2) TSLA 52 week high was 299 and now is 176. it is -29% YTD and -18% 1Y

One of the metrics (one of the most important ones), is just plain order growth, profitability and EPS. And if you can increase all of those numbers, then it is simple life. If you cannot - then you have to do something in order to increase your orders, so hence price reductions.

in 2022 tesla was increasing prices. M3 LR was 55k at one point (or maybe up to 57k, briefly, IIRC). Do you really think that Tesla would not want to charge 55k for M3 LR instead of 50k? just brush off 10% just because of reasons? are you really that deep into this??!

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Q1 2024 they sold 386k, Q4 2023 they sold 484k, Q1 2023 they sold 422k (taken from Tesla documents)

So sales were down 20% on the previous quarter, and 9% on the same quarter last year depending what you want to take as your reference point

Looking at other metrics., gross profit is down 18%

There is also a 55% drop on Net Income (GAAP) according to the Q1 finances

I don't think anyone really believes Musks primary goal is bring cars to the masses anymore as his overarching ambition, he doesn't even believe Tesla is a car company. I'm also not convinced he wants to make the safest cars, you don't make cars that can do 0-60 mph in 2 seconds if you want to be "safe". You also don't push for the biggest pay packet ever seen, and by some margin. I'm sure he probably thinks its part of the mix, but more as a sales aid and brand message, just like BMW call themselves the Ultimate driving machine when some of their cars really aren't great to drive.

 

[yessuz]

55% - which source. market? When I search I can find 55% profit drop - but that's excluding all sorts of spending such as one of the world's biggest AI computing clusters.

"Down 2.3% since April 2023" from the earlier source. Is that what you meant? Please correct your post if it is in error.

AUSTIN, Texas, April 2, 2024 – In the first quarter, we produced over 433,000 vehicles and delivered approximately 387,000 vehicles.
AUSTIN, Texas, January 2, 2024 – In the fourth quarter, we produced approximately 495,000 vehicles and delivered over 484,000 vehicles.
AUSTIN, Texas, October 2, 2023 – In the third quarter, we produced over 430,000 vehicles and delivered over 435,000 vehicles
AUSTIN, Texas, July 2, 2023 – In the second quarter, we produced nearly 480,000 vehicles and delivered over 466,000 vehicles.
AUSTIN, Texas, April 2, 2023 – In the first quarter, we produced over 440,000 vehicles and delivered over 422,000 vehicles.

I mean - 484 -> 387 is quite a drop. 20% drop.
edit: @GeorgeSymonds beat me to it

P.S. It is very interesting to see the working. whole 2023 they delivered OVER x amount reported. in 2024 it was "Approximately" x amount reported.

Meaning they did not reach that 387 target.