Tesla telling me I have to upgrade/pay for new S75 from S60

[whitex]

Reading all these opinions, it is obvious that Tesla missed the ball here. No, not by not giving the customer more for same price, but instead they should have notified the OP as the 60 and solid roof was being discontinued and ask him to make a decision then, either:
1. Take the car early - the delivery of a discontinued product must be taken before the product goes out of production
2. Switch the order to a new product at a new price
3. Cancel the order
Plenty of business operate this way by the way otherwise the orders present an unnecessary obligation/liability on the books (think how great of a deal it would be if someone ordered a bunch of model T's in 1925 with delivery in 2017 - @$260, should Ford give those people new Fords or better yet, but pricey vintage 1925 Model T's?). The only mistake Tesla made is wait until option #1 was no longer available. Any other option, such as providing larger battery for free is purely a good will type of options.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Reading all these opinions, it is obvious that Tesla missed the ball here. No, not by not giving the customer more for same price, but instead they should have notified the OP as the 60 and solid roof was being discontinued and ask him to make a decision then, either:
1. Take the car early - the delivery of a discontinued product must be taken before the product goes out of production
2. Switch the order to a new product at a new price
3. Cancel the order
Plenty of business operate this way by the way otherwise the orders present an unnecessary obligation/liability on the books (think how great of a deal it would be if someone ordered a bunch of model T's in 1925 with delivery in 2017 - @$260, should Ford give those people new Fords or better yet, but pricey vintage 1925 Model T's?). The only mistake Tesla made is wait until option #1 was no longer available. Any other option, such as providing larger battery for free is purely a good will type of options.

While I think @whitex suggestion is better than what happened here, it is still questionable: Tesla allowed the delivery time selection at the time of order. It was part of the contract. Going back on that without any cost, while legal, is bad form.

Also, it would be bad service to do what @whitex suggests. Selecting a delivery time is normal in car business because of long leadtimes, lease periods coming up etc. If Tesla did not offer that, it would be worse than the competition that does allow this...

 

[whitex]

While I think @whitex suggestion is better than what happened here, it is still questionable: Tesla allowed the delivery time selection at the time of order. It was part of the contract. Going back on that without any cost, while legal, is bad form.

Also, it would be bad service to do what @whitex suggests. Selecting a delivery time is normal in car business because of long leadtimes, lease periods coming up etc. If Tesla did not offer that, it would be worse than the competition that does allow this...

Which competition lets you order a custom car, lock the price and pick it up much later? Try to order a brand new 2017 Porsche now for delivery in mid 2018, see if they let you keep the price or options, I sincerely doubt it because by then they'll be producing 2018 model year and the dealer may not even have the available options or pricing ready. I've ordered custom cars from the competition before and the model year always has a cut off. With Porsche it was actually a specific number of cars was going to be built on a particular schedule. If it wasn't sold already, you could claim that spot and custom order, but the production date was set and you had to take delivery within some number of days of when it gets to the dealership (or you could pick it up at the factory if you wanted to pay for the European delivery) - I don't remember how many days because I always picked it up as soon as it got there - waiting for the darn boat to get here was as painful as waiting for a Tesla custom order, but longer (think 6-8 months instead of 1.5 months with Tesla) - the one thing they did do much better though is fix my trade-in value (with some mileage limitations of course), something Tesla would not do, not even when trading in a Tesla.

 

[sakimano]

Base on the agreement you signed. If they dont budge on the request for the additional $1500, sounds like you will have to order a new car. Best of luck in getting tesla to give you a free upgrade, but just undersrand the terms and agreement when you signed it and placed your deposit.

He understands...he just doesn't 'get' why they'd be so hard lined. They are a little weird sometimes. Growing pains really but i think you need to know when, as a business, you need to just eat 1500 bucks sometimes.

Sure his agreement says xyz, but their employee who is an agent for tesla dealing with the public also told him he wouldn't have to pay. Don't also forget that when he bought the car the battery upgrade wasn't 1500, it was 8 grand. What if they were telling him today he has to pay the 8 grand? That would feel a bit tougher to swallow.

Personally I would just pay the 1500 for the 75 and move on. The extra 30 miles of range is well worth it and he's going to get most of that money back if he ever sells the car.

 

[sakimano]

Which competition lets you order a custom car, lock the price and pick it up much later? Try to order a brand new 2017 Porsche now for delivery in mid 2018, see if they let you keep the price or options, I sincerely doubt it because by then they'll be producing 2018 model year and the dealer may not even have the available options or pricing ready. I've ordered custom cars from the competition before and the model year always has a cut off.... (wall of text)

He ordered it mid April and is getting the car in July. Three months. 90 days. Totally normal.

Your comparison to suggest he's being unreasonable is to compare what he's doing to ordering a Porsche and asking for a 12 month lead time and a model year change at no charge???

People love defending tesla.

P. S. Where is the return key on my keyboard?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Which competition lets you order a custom car, lock the price and pick it up much later? Try to order a brand new 2017 Porsche now for delivery in mid 2018, see if they let you keep the price or options, I sincerely doubt it because by then they'll be producing 2018 model year and the dealer may not even have the available options or pricing ready. I've ordered custom cars from the competition before and the model year always has a cut off. With Porsche it was actually a specific number of cars was going to be built on a particular schedule. If it wasn't sold already, you could claim that spot and custom order, but the production date was set and you had to take delivery within some number of days of when it gets to the dealership (or you could pick it up at the factory if you wanted to pay for the European delivery) - I don't remember how many days because I always picked it up as soon as it got there - waiting for the darn boat to get here was as painful as waiting for a Tesla custom order, but longer (think 6-8 months instead of 1.5 months with Tesla) - the one thing they did do much better though is fix my trade-in value (with some mileage limitations of course), something Tesla would not do, not even when trading in a Tesla.

Well, I get it that this varies country to country, region to region, but I guarantee you - in much of the world deciding on the delivery time upon order of a car - and locking in price and features - a few months ahead is normal fare. There is nothing abnormal about this. The guy ordered in April for a July delivery.

In Europe the only way most people buy premium cars is custom order and much of the time those cars come to replace a current car on lease, it isn't abnormal to agree on a delivery even nine months into the future - so that the factory has time to guarantee the car is ready on time for the lease period. They may (and often do) build it ahead of time and then the car sits in a holding area (perhaps an area in the docks) waiting the agreed upon delivery time, until being moved to the dealership closer to the sale.

What Tesla could have done is build his 60 around the last day those were being built (they had the order in their system, after all, so they could plan for it) and shipped it to the store near the delivery date.

 

[smac]

@whitex isn't this more a sign of the uncertainty that Tesla have brought to the table with the lack of model years.

Having been stung somewhat on buying a pre-AP car that took >14 months from deposit to delivery only to be superseded within a month, it's not a great feeling getting offloaded with old stock. But from a less selfish POV if others get the benefit of better than expected FOC, Tesla can be seen to be somewhat balanced.

If they are to continue this CI strategy, they need to keep winning on some, losing on others. Pushing all the risk onto customers for their own gains will IMO lead to poor perception (certainty is an important aspect of purchasing.)

Personally if I were to buy another Tesla it would be inventory, so I knew exactly what I was buying. If it was post a change in line up (say the face lift or a larger battery, and I was buying a previous model I'd also expect a significant discount).

 

[ElectricTundra]

A contract is a two-way agreement. Both sides receive benefits, both receive obligations, and both have some protections.

Tesla agreed to allow delayed delivery and the OP also agreed that Tesla can cancel that delayed delivery if they discontinue the parts. That's a good agreement for both. In most cases the parts are not discontinued and delayed delivery works well for both parties. In some, and I would guess extremely few, the parts are discontinued so the agreement that the buyer (OP) made to allow cancellation is invoked as it was here.

Tesla are being quite fair and ethical in their dealings with the OP. The OP knew, based on signing the contract, that asking for delayed delivery also carried some risk of the parts being discontinued and the order being cancelled.

Personally I would gladly pay the $1500 for the upgrade they've offered. Others, like the OP, perhaps not and so the best option is to cancel and re-order.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@whitex isn't this more a sign of the uncertainty that Tesla have brought to the table with the lack of model years.

It is, obviously. A guy ordering a car in April should not be facing a situation "sorry, we can't build the car you ordered" a month and a half later. But with Tesla's system of absolutely constant changes to better and to worse and to every which way in-between, anything is possible.

Personally if I were to buy another Tesla it would be inventory, so I knew exactly what I was buying. If it was post a change in line up (say the face lift or a larger battery, and I was buying a previous model I'd also expect a significant discount).

I am somewhat reluctant to order any more Teslas, given the uncertainty surrounding constant (many times a quarter) product changes. When the international delivery times are spanning nearly almost two or even three quarters, a LOT can change and be left to chance. If Tesla is now even trying to move that risk onto my shoulders by not respecting the specs or the price, that sounds even worse. Tesla is making German model years (which really are half-years in Europe) sound like bliss in comparison.

I can not think of any other product that changes so much, so fast, all the time. Especially not one with long lead-times...

 

[ElectricTundra]

It would perhaps have been a good idea for Tesla to have given the OP a screen (in lieu of a sheet of paper) with a single sentence that said that by asking for delayed delivery the customer is increasing the risk of parts not being available and if that happens then the order will be cancelled.

That is already in the contract but perhaps it should be spelled out separately. The problem is that this then creates a situation where each order could require 30 of this simplified screens.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

A contract is a two-way agreement. Both sides receive benefits, both receive obligations, and both have some protections.

Tesla agreed to allow delayed delivery and the OP also agreed that Tesla can cancel that delayed delivery if they discontinue the parts. That's a good agreement for both. In most cases the parts are not discontinued and delayed delivery works well for both parties. In some, and I would guess extremely few, the parts are discontinued so the agreement that the buyer (OP) made to allow cancellation is invoked as it was here.

Nothing was stopping Tesla from fulfilling this order, though. They had it in the system, they could have built the car during the period those cars were being built and stored it for one month like any normal car company would do. (And really, what parts are there to discontinue, the 60 badge?)

Tesla are being quite fair and ethical in their dealings with the OP. The OP knew, based on signing the contract, that asking for delayed delivery also carried some risk of the parts being discontinued and the order being cancelled.

Personally I would gladly pay the $1500 for the upgrade they've offered. Others, like the OP, perhaps not and so the best option is to cancel and re-order.

Yes, apparently buyers of Tesla need to be well aware that there is a risk Tesla won't respect their order. Until now it was more of a theoretical (such clauses are usually simply for force majeure situations), but apparently it is a real risk.

One more thing we need to educate people who consider risking a Tesla purchase. Such an adventure.

 

[smac]

(And really, what parts are there to discontinue, the 60 badge?)

That's somewhat moot, as they can simply stick on a 9 upside down

 

[ElectricTundra]

Nothing was stopping Tesla from fulfilling this order, though. They had it in the system, they could have built the car during the period those cars were being built and stored it for one month like any normal car company would do. (And really, what parts are there to discontinue, the 60 badge?)

Tesla doesn't operate like traditional manufacturers and dealers... and that's a good thing. If the OP wants that option then OP should purchase a traditional car from a traditional dealer.

BMW, Audi, Lexus, Porsche and others have lost quite considerable marketshare to Tesla and are hurting for sales. They'll be very happy to take OP's money.

Yes, apparently buyers of Tesla need to be well aware that there is a risk Tesla won't respect their order. Until now it was more of a theoretical (such clauses are usually simply for force majeure situations), but apparently it is a real risk.

One more thing we need to educate people who consider risking a Tesla purchase. Such an adventure.

Seriously? Over reacting a bit?

The vast majority of Tesla customers are quite happy with the way Tesla functions and with their cars when they receive them. Are there occasional problems? Sure. But look at discussion boards for traditional cars and dealers and you'll appreciate Tesla that much more. Changes that occur between ordering and delivery are nearly always positive improvements for the vast majority of customers. That's a good thing — they get more than they expected.

My current S is over 2 years old and is a better car today than the one I purchased thanks to Tesla's OTA software updates. My local Tesla Service Center has been great to deal with and massively better than our local Mercedes and Porsche dealers and slightly better than Lexus.

Tesla was quite fair with the OP. They split the difference on his original order. They're asking him to take two upgrades, they're paying for one and asking him to pay for the other. I think the vast majority of people would be quite happy with that. Regardless, he still has the option of accepting their cancellation and re-ordering and as mentioned above he can now skip PUP and pay less than his original order without giving up anything he doesn't care for.

Any unhappiness on the part of the OP is the OP's choice.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Tesla doesn't operate like traditional manufacturers and dealers... and that's a good thing. If the OP wants that option then OP should purchase a traditional car from a traditional dealer.

I agree Tesla does not operate like traditional manufacturers and dealers. And in this case my opinion is, it is a bad thing. (There are other cases where it is also a bad thing. Of course there are also sides where it is a good thing.)

BMW, Audi, Lexus, Porsche and others have lost quite considerable marketshare to Tesla and are hurting for sales. They'll be very happy to take OP's money.

Looking at my signature and the likes of @smac on this thread, the other guys will surely be getting some of our money when they come out with their large-battery BEVs. Personally, seeing as we are on TMC, I'd rather Tesla improve and keep our business than drive people away with questionable decisions like this one. The OP's case is so easy, so simple for Tesla to solve and do right. I can't believe we are even discussing it here. This is not a borderline case or a polarizing opinion call, this is business 101. Tesla should just offer the improved product at the original price, if they can't deliver the car that was ordered.

Seriously? Over reacting a bit?

The vast majority of Tesla customers are quite happy with the way Tesla functions and with their cars when they receive them. Are there occasional problems? Sure. But look at discussion boards for traditional cars and dealers and you'll appreciate Tesla that much more. Changes that occur between ordering and delivery are nearly always positive improvements for the vast majority of customers. That's a good thing — they get more than they expected.

Seriously. I don't care that vast majority are OK, if there is a percentage of people who are treated like OP is being treated here. Because that means next time it could be you or me. That's why solving cases like this matters. I still expect Tesla to do right by OP, by the way. This is not a case that should have ever escalated to this level. But in Tesla's system of powerless sales representatives in their company-owned stores, and the vast bureaucracy in between, apparently this can happen...

Tesla was quite fair with the OP. They split the difference on his original order. They're asking him to take two upgrades, they're paying for one and asking him to pay for the other. I think the vast majority of people would be quite happy with that. Regardless, he still has the option of accepting their cancellation and re-ordering and as mentioned above he can now skip PUP and pay less than his original order without giving up anything he doesn't care for.

Any unhappiness on the part of the OP is the OP's choice.

I doubt the vast majority would be happy with that, but more to the point, I don't think it is a reasonable nor a wise stance to take by Tesla. Nor is there anything fair about it, because it all was in Tesla's control (e.g. they could have pre-built the car before a change they themselves chose to make, that was not forced onto them) and through no fault of the buyer.

 

[brkaus]

This is one of those benefits of dealerships, they actually have real latitude in making decisions, because they have a local budget. With Tesla it is a giant bureaucracy that leaves their store staff in the unenviable positioning of having to explain and rationalize whatever command of the day comes from the (regional) HQ.

The local dealership "retention" budget comes from charging some customers more than others.

What Tesla could have done is build his 60 around the last day those were being built (they had the order in their system, after all, so they could plan for it) and shipped it to the store near the delivery date.

Then at delivery, the buyer says "I want the new features, the customer is always right."

 

[AnxietyRanger]

The local dealership "retention" budget comes from charging some customers more than others.

Completely regional, though. Where I live most dealerships are chains with fixed-percentage discounts on custom factory orders. I haven't heard of the kind of haggling you guys have in the U.S. pretty much anywhere where custom orders is the name of the game. Your lot-based system with inventory management tied into it does, I agree, create a different dynamic because you are haggling over physical items, instead of buying a service to order a factory car.

But be that as it may, the dealerships are separate companies in most of the world, so they are not limited to the remedies a factory approves somewhere afar. A separate dealership has flexibility a Tesla store following the company line and HQ's orders does not.

Then at delivery, the buyer says "I want the new features, the customer is always right."

Then the customer can eat the deposit and re-order. Or Tesla can offer the choice to the customer before pre-building the car that is being discontinued. It isn't like there aren't many options to handling this better than they did...

All that said, a bare minimum should always be a company delivers the product that is ordered at the pre-agreed price. They can deliver better (i.e. better product or cheaper price) at their discretion, but not worse. Similarly, if a customer chooses to walk away from a custom order, the seller is entitled to a reasonable compensation in the form of the deposit or the like. This is not hard. This is basic stuff.

Also, maybe Tesla would be wise to consider not changing the features of the car all the time, if osbourning their products becomes a constant problem...

 

[CAF]

I ordered an S60 shortly before the deadline. I'm pretty sure Tesla said I needed to take delivery by June 30th or so.

Maybe the local guys mistakenly told you something different?

I ended up paying the slight premium for the 75D, partly to get the power liftgate.

 

[smac]

BMW, Audi, Lexus, Porsche and others have lost quite considerable marketshare to Tesla and are hurting for sales.

That's not strictly true.

Since 2012 Tesla sales have gone from 0 -76k per annum.

Over the same period:
BMW have increased sales from 1.84m units to 2.37m
VW went from 9m units to 10.4m units

Even Lexus has grown in absolute numbers. (Can't find global figures, but in the US Lexus went from 224k to 330k).

So in absolute numbers Tesla aren't taking sales per se.

What we do know is the S outsells the big luxury sedans in a number of key markets, but we don't know how much the incumbent manufacturers are also losing share to other products in their own line ups, especially luxury sedans to luxury SUVs.

As for the fastest growth auto company in the US... well that would be Jaguar. The simply answer to which is the F-Pace outsold all their other models combined 4:1.

This is why Tesla desperately need the Model Y IMHO. (And why I am considering jumping off the Tesla train, because frankly I can't even see that particular light in any near term tunnel.).

They'll be very happy to take OP's money.

This I wholeheartedly agree with.

 

[SeaDoc]

I'm a bit confused on the OP's position. Did he delay delivery of his vehicle, thus forcing Tesla to delay their completion of his now extinct version? If he did delay, and not honor his initial agreement with Tesla, he has no right to force Tesla to honor anything. By delaying his purchase, he created a new contract that Tesla can or can't honor... They are giving him that option - Take the new version (as the delay resulted in the loss of the original agreement) at the added price, or cancel altogether. Frankly, I have no doubt you'll enjoy the 75 over the 60 - it does come in handy, especially on infrequent long trips... Perhaps, you can have them throw in some extended warranty options that don't really cost them anything to provide you... And besides, they are providing you free Supercharging for the life of your car and if you decide to purchase another S in the future. That is well worth any additional charges they are asking you to pay...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I'm a bit confused on the OP's position. Did he delay delivery of his vehicle, thus forcing Tesla to delay their completion of his now extinct version? If he did delay, and not honor his initial agreement with Tesla, he has no right to force Tesla to honor anything. By delaying his purchase, he created a new contract that Tesla can or can't honor... They are giving him that option - Take the new version (as the delay resulted in the loss of the original agreement) at the added price, or cancel altogether. Frankly, I have no doubt you'll enjoy the 75 over the 60 - it does come in handy, especially on infrequent long trips... Perhaps, you can have them throw in some extended warranty options that don't really cost them anything to provide you... And besides, they are providing you free Supercharging for the life of your car and if you decide to purchase another S in the future. That is well worth any additional charges they are asking you to pay...

According to OP Tesla agreed to the July delivery two weeks ago. It is only after the fact that they are imposing new costs on it.