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50 MILLION new butts in Chairs by 09:55 a.m.

Gonna be a large day in da 'hood... :D

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EDIT:

Volume averaged 1.25M shares traded per minute from the Open until 10:05 a.m. and the gap to yesterday's intraday low has now been closed:

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Were the price raises good news then?
Price raises = Bad?
Price cuts = Bad?
Tesla's mission = ?

Regardless of what anyone thinks, the mission is being fulfilled. There was always meant to be competition and it appears that might be happening in China.

Q1 500k+ is looking in the bag, tons of margin, supply chain/logistic costs down, robots optimized and Shanghai is...

 
Has anybody here run a financial model of what Tesla’s annual profit looks like in a fully mature EV market? Make your own assumptions, but mine would be something like:

Tesla selling 10 million units per year
$25k ASP
No longer any pricing power since competition can make similar product, so margin comes only from lower cost than the competition. So, 10% margin?

Your misunderstanding derives from the fact that you are still looking at the car as the product. Yes, other manufacturers will be able to make similar cars, but Elon has made no secret about the fact that the actual product is something that's far more difficult to replicate, the production lines, the supply chains, and the distribution.

Tesla's competitive advantage is one of being able to deliver value, a superior product for less money, and it would be very difficult for competitors to be able to replicate the foundation that grants this cost structure, particularly since it's a moving target. Maybe a newer entrant like BYD or another new company with the right leadership could, but they will need to grow production for many years before they could be a real competitive threat to Tesla. And missteps are very easy to make. The business of auto manufacturing is not like that of consumer electronics which means that Tesla's achievements to date are mind-blowing, if you understand what they have accomplished. It's very difficult to catch up to a company that already has a sizeable lead and has the pedal to the metal like Tesla does. Legacy auto is completely unequipped to do so.
 
One of the challenges I see with the "Demand Problem" narrative is simply the definition of Demand Problem...particularly the "problem" part. It really comes down to a few basic items:

  1. Do people WANT your product...and by "people" I mean a LOT of people (ignoring price for a moment)?
  2. How much are people willing to pay for your product?
  3. Can you make money selling your product at the price people are willing to pay?
  4. Can you make enough of your your product?
If you mess up on any of these items as a company, then you have a demand PROBLEM no matter who you are. We love one of our local burger places, but their ridiculously awesome burgers are $12-$14. A LOT of people won't pay that much, but we do. It's a balancing act, especially when you want to GROW. Let's look at Tesla:

Item 1 on the list is actually hard...really, really hard. Lots of people come up with cool products that people want....but perhaps not a LOT of people want. Other companies, well, they try but end up with a swing and a miss. Tesla has done an insanely great job here and while, yes, some of their products are getting a little long in the tooth, they don't have a "problem" in that area. Indeed, those of us who've been around Teslas for years now forget that SO MANY people have little exposure to Teslas and even the "old" Teslas are "new and cool" to them.

Item 2 is where "want" and "practicality" often come together. Yes, yes a few of you "rich" guys don't care as much about this, but for most of the population how much we CAN pay and are WILLING to pay comes into play. You have a "problem" when you charge more than this threshold relative to what you are producing. When you are at or below that threshold...no "problem". So when Tesla lowers prices as it is doing now...it is obviously to address the lowering threshold of buyers. The converse is also true...when people are willing and able to pay more you can raise prices. For an example of this, see Tesla in 2022! Sure a lot of that was their supply costs, but their margins are pretty sweet. In some ways, I think Tesla's 2022 profits are "paying for" what is coming in 2023. Of course, your ability to lower the price is the kicker...which brings us to item 3.

Item 3 is all about cost control. The more you "win" here, the more you can address #2 (price) in a highly competitive and/or recessionary time...AND the more you can rake it in during prosperous times. Tesla's advantage here is impressive primarily because it isn't just the classic "move everything to China" play that most companies explore (although clearly it has that component). Its differentiation, is that it is heavily INNOVATION focused, and I don't say that lightly. In corporate America, "Innovation" is primarily a "buzzword" that companies use to make themselves "LOOK" innovative...behind the scenes, it is mostly, um, PowerPoint presentations as best I can tell. Tesla also tries to control their supply chain as much as possible and leverage long term "strategic" contracts with key suppliers...see everything "battery" related. In short, their cost control seems crazy good and they CONTINUE to FOCUS on this in a REAL way as best I can tell...it sure as heck isn't just lip service.

Now, let's look at item 4. One could argue this isn't technically a "demand" item, but people can't buy what you don't make...and if they are still in the market for a purchase, they will buy "something else" if is available...or they wait. People don't like to wait and, often, they can't wait. You don't want to lose a sale because you simply can't deliver a product to someone who is standing there trying to give you their money! Tesla has obviously focused on ramping up production and they have to. We won't be in a recessionary situation forever (if we are, we have bigger problems) and when it is over, you don't want to then "start" to figure our production...you burn too many years of high profit potential. This is why Tesla will continue to build out existng plants and even start new ones...in a recession!

Ultimately, I think we are seeing a classic economic downturn cycle and now we see if Tesla can really pull off item 2 and continue to drive costs out in item 3 while maintaining and growing volume. Folks on here have been preaching their advantages in this area for quite a while...this is what it was for (not to achieve insane margins forever). 2023 will be a litmus test. Will the stock respond if the execute well? In the short term, probably still a mess. In the long term, I am very hopeful.

Nothing new in what I have above, but understanding that EVERY company has a "demand problem" at the wrong price for the current market is important and further understanding that a company's ability to be flexible on price while still making a profit is key.
 
Some good news...Services PMI is starting to drop. This has been a problem area in getting overall inflation down.


Edit: I have to think the Fed is going to like this. Business activity holds up while Services inflation is coming down. It lends a little more credence to the possibility of a soft landing.
 
Drew Baglino needs to go. If 4680s weren't stuck in the mud, then we could have our own batteries like BYD and even outcompete on cost. How is it okay that 2 years after battery day we still are stuck in the mud? Drew was never that great anyways. Off with his head.
Drew Baglino has been at Tesla since 2006. He’s helped build everything that we have now.

Elon has no qualms about firing people who aren’t up to snuff and he’s very demanding with executives.

BYD makes LFP batteries. A bunch of patents that recently expired basically made it so China had a monopoly on LFP. Tesla could not make them. Tesla was working on advanced nickel cells (4680s).

We don’t know what the holdup is on 4680s but it is a six year tech implementation plan that started in 2020 and Tesla has said chip and supply chain stuff has been more of the focus with cell supply not being a constraint. Why blame Drew without more specific reasons to do so?
 
Far from me to sound too bullish, but here's some potential upside to whatever the potential expected margin decline could be.

1) Smaller price cuts in export countries like Australia might stimulate similar increases in demand as bigger cuts in China. Presumably Tesla makes more profit on a lot of these exports vs China - couldn't we see Tesla China increase the % of cars exported? Therefore the deeper cuts in China have less of an overall effect.

2) List price is not the same as average selling price. Chinese love a deal and sniff out when a cut might happen in the future. The lower list price might allow consumers to think they are getting a good deal and stimulate more add on options to be selected than before. So ASP won't drop as much as the list price cut %.

3) This probably won't happen right away, but I'd have to think the corporate / leasing loophole in the IRA bill means Tesla could import some of Shanghai's production into the U.S. as rental company / other corp purchases (for higher ASP than in China) or for leasing. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

These are all potential drivers for the ASP's to not reduce as much as the price cuts. Combined with increase in volume, we could still expect total profits to increase sequentially.
 
IP 66, three phase, Chinese, Huawei



As I have said before .... Tesla is not alone in offering VPPs.

There are a number of VPP software packages out there that the utilities can use. The most public of these is Octopus's Kraken. That will interface with many residential/domestic inverter-battery storage systems including Tesla, GivEnergy, Powervault, etc and utility-scale. The utility software platform is in use with quite a lot of utilities around the (EON, SSE, GoodEnergy, Elia, NorskHydro, EDF, etc) and several countries (UK, Belgium, Japan, Canada, etc) around the world. I'm higlighting Kraken because some info is public - most utilities are quite coy about their software platforms, but these days many have similar functionality. (I have no investment whatsoever in Kraken/Octopus.)






Octopus software not really totally supplier agnostic: Octopus Intelligent works well with my Model 3, but does not work at all with my FIAT500e. It is cheaper to use council chargers than charge my 500e at home :-(
 
Question for clarification only: is there any thread on TMC now where Elons non-Tesla public statements (including his political ones) are able to be discussed?
Elon's Tweets?

If "able to be discussed" means "discussed in a reasonable manner", then, no, at least not anywhere that I've ever found. :rolleyes:
 
The line upgrades at Shanghai late last summer almost immediately spiked production rates by about 20%. As far as I’m aware they did this with no major increase in labor hours per week and no additional production lines, so this improvement in rate implies major productivity gains.

You can bet that this kind of improvement goes hand in hand with lower costs. For example:
  • If nothing else, you’re getting more economies of scale by cranking out more cars with the same facility and the same fixed costs like depreciation and amortization. It equates to a reduction of about 1 - 1/1.2 = 17% per car.
  • If total labor hours per week are the same and output is 20% higher, then labor cost per car is reduced by about 17% too.
  • Productivity may have improved via improved first-time quality, resulting in higher yield, less wasted time, fewer injuries, and so on
Personally I didn’t expect a 5-10% price drop in the Asia-Pacific regional market Shanghai serves, but I would not be surprised to learn that margins from Shanghai moving forward are about the same as last year’s margins. If this is so, Q4 margins may have been temporarily high because of the benefits of the efficiency gains coming before most of the price drops. We will learn more on the Q4 earnings report and call. For what it’s worth, we do have the statements coming from Tesla saying that the price drops reflect major cost improvements.

When you combine this with the inputs getting cheaper as Tesla said last quarter and deflation kicking in, I would hesitate to jump to any conclusions about margins suffering severely until at least the Q4 financial data is out.

The fact that Tesla China can sell a 3 SR for USD$33k equivalent is an extremely bullish sign in my opinion. I’m confident they’re not selling this at 0% margin. If it’s at least 10% profit margin for this base version then that implies a cost of production under $30k, and that’s still for a car that’s currently missing many of the cost optimizations that the Y enjoys.