Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[ZeApelido]

It's a classic variant of the prisoner's dilemma. Look it up.

It's the same reason that the US doesn't unilaterally disarm, and that Russia doesn't unilaterally disarm, but if they have a treaty, the US and Russia can both disarm.

You should be smarter than this. I'm going to guess you aren't a supporter of unilateral disarmament.

The goal is to get *every* rich person to pay more. If you're Musk, you don't want to pay more *while* the Koch brothers pay less, because then the Koch Brothers can spend more money on pro-fossil fuel campagins, while Musk has less money to spend on anti-fossil-fuel campaigns. Even if Musk and the Koch Brothers both agree that the government should have more funding, they can't agree to do it unilaterally, because then the other side has an incentive to "betray" --- they need it to happen to everyone ("cooperation").

If every rich person pays more taxes, they come out even in their battle over global warming, so it's possible for them to agree on this -- but it needs to be mandatory government taxes.

Consider yourself enlightened.

(I studied economic game theory.)

I came to mention game theory. Got Neroded.

 

[Nocturnal]

Tesla Beating Competitors Even With Its Hands Tied

Dealer's associations are the worst. I don't know why it is but they earned their reputation in popular culture for a reason. Stereotypical slick backed hair, overly self important big fish in their local small pond etc. The association here in Kansas City made a big stink during their auto show and kicked out a couple Teslas that owners were putting up for display. The first excuse was that only cars sold by dealers were allowed. After it was pointed out that there were several other vehicles without local dealership representation they just went quiet. Anti-capitalist and anti-American scumbags the lot of em.

 

[ZeApelido]

I doubt it after his 'Chomsky sucks' tweet and his follow up 'Chomsky is the Iago of socio-economic theory & Piketty is his docile puppet'.

Elon also has another quote:

> 'By the way, I am actually a socialist. Just not the kind that shifts resources from most productive to least productive, pretending to do good, while actually causing harm. True socialism seeks greatest good for all.'

So considering how productive Elon's companies are, I can only surmise that he would not want to pay more tax as that would eat away at his ability to go to Mars/have sustainable energy.

I also don't feel like Elon is using the idea of socialism correctly under this definition:

> a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

I also remember him talking about incentives and he said he just wants a fair playing field with no incentives for oil or electric, and that the cost of pollution needs to be factored into the price of ICE cars.

Taking all these quotes together, politically and economically he seems like a libertarian capitalist, who views government intervention as often standing in the way of progress by supporting old incumbents like dealer networks, ULA, oil companies, etc. I'm not saying it wasn't his signature, but I suspect he wants to make more money for his goals not give it away to be used inefficiently.

Also, as a big Chomsky fan, I found these Chomsky tweets unnecessarily obtuse.

Liberatarians don't seem to consider government intervention for affixing prices/costs to negative externalities, so that would be a major disagreement with him I would think.

 

[Nocturnal]

Riding an e-bike is clearly better for the planet than driving, but I've argued elsewhere that the primary benefit of bicycling or walking is likely for personal health, not for the planet as a whole. Making some guesstimates, if the human body is ~20% efficient at converting food calories to "work", and if food production/distribution which usually depends on fossil fuels is ~20% efficient from farm to table, then traditional bicycling may be less efficient in terms of greenhouse gas impact than driving an EV. I don't think anyone is going to "save the planet" by bicycling, but they'll generally be healthier.

Ehh, that assumes the person is consuming more calories to offset their exercise and that we are on a standard western, hi

I came to mention game theory. Got Neroded.

I love me some game theory. If I had stayed in Economics rather than moving into IT I would definitely have worked in that area.

Tesla Beating Competitors Even With Its Hands Tied

Dealer's associations are the worst. I don't know why it is but they earned their reputation in popular culture for a reason. Stereotypical slick backed hair, overly self important big fish in their local small pond etc. The association here in Kansas City made a big stink during their auto show and kicked out a couple Teslas that owners were putting up for display. The first excuse was that only cars sold by dealers were allowed. After it was pointed out that there were several other vehicles without local dealership representation they just went quiet. Anti-capitalist and anti-American scumbags the lot of em.

Riding an e-bike is clearly better for the planet than driving, but I've argued elsewhere that the primary benefit of bicycling or walking is likely for personal health, not for the planet as a whole. Making some guesstimates, if the human body is ~20% efficient at converting food calories to "work", and if food production/distribution which usually depends on fossil fuels is ~20% efficient from farm to table, then traditional bicycling may be less efficient in terms of greenhouse gas impact than driving an EV. I don't think anyone is going to "save the planet" by bicycling, but they'll generally be healthier.

Ehh, that assumes the person is consuming more calories to offset their exercise and that we are on a standard western, high meat diet right?​

 

[Nocturnal]

Liberatarians don't seem to consider government intervention for affixing prices/costs to negative externalities, so that would be a major disagreement with him I would think.

Huge, glaring flaw in the worldview of most libertarians. Pollution violates the NAP.
Also, many of their arguments rely on humans being rational, they are clearly not. For example, they will say "you don't need to regulate fishing! Just sell fishing rights and of course no company would overfish and ruin their revenue stream."

That's ridiculous because 1. If say we overfish tuna and they go extinct, humans for the rest of time will suffer. 2. There is zero guarantee a company will be smart enough to understand where to limit their efforts. 3. The people in charge of that company aren't immortal. A corporation might have an incentive to keep revenue solid for 200 years, but an individual CEO or manager does not. His incentive is to extract as much profit as possible to enrich himself (and his family). If the company goes under after he dies, what does he care?

 

[Maitri982]

Tesla reportedly working on its own battery cell manufacturing capability – TechCrunch

 

[MarcusMaximus]

Liberatarians don't seem to consider government intervention for affixing prices/costs to negative externalities, so that would be a major disagreement with him I would think.

Libertarians tend to hold a somewhat odd stance on this. They(kinda “we”) should support penalties up to and including jail time for polluters, as polluting violates the non-aggression principle, since it causes direct harm to other people. I think a lot of them just have blinders on because “big government”.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

I've noticed this the past few days whenever I look up the TSLA chart with google (and thus it returns a bunch of TSLA related links as well), that apparently Nasdaq.com has had a 'top story' since 2 days ago titled "Tesla Stock Is Back Above $200 - Time To Short It".

Why on earth are such articles allowed to appear on a stock market's website? That would imply the market operators themselves are condoning shorting TSLA, which seems like it should be some kind of illegal manipulation, they should be neutral in all things (except enforcing rules and such).

Apparently the article originates at InvestorPlace Media, but it's posted / hosted on Nasdaq.com. And from glancing at the article, it seems the author is trying to piggy back on TSLA shorting fever to try and sell the author's services, which also seems like something that shouldn't be posted to Nasdaq.com (regardless of whether they're for/against anyone).

It just seems so sleazy for articles that push a narrative and/or advertise a particular entity's services should be allowed on Nasdaq.com.

 

[jerry33]

Wait - is this a feature I’m not aware of? What are the “red dots”?

The red dots are the Supercharger locations.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

Strongly recommend everyone stop overreacting to every departure. It happens. Every day. In every company. And it almost always has virtually zero impact on the real success of the company.

I think you're mostly preaching to the choir here, try telling that to the market (and thus all the clickbait writers).

 

[Dan Detweiler]

When you are playing a game and the other side can legally cheat it's tough to get away with it. I figure this won't change until Tesla becomes steady in profitability and the big money swamps the short trolls.

Yup

Dan

 

[jerry33]

If the company goes under after he dies, what does he care?

This is what my conservative coworkers say. If it doesn't happen in thirty years, I don't care. These are educated people with kids that are saying this. There's no response that you can give to this kind of thinking.

 

[Nocturnal]

Thanks for helping the FUD Elektrek. Giving the NYT a ready made headline that at a glance suggests Tesla is failing...even though what they are possibly "failing" at is hitting their own internal goal of having a RECORD quarter. Good lord.
Tesla Faces Delivery Bottleneck at Close of Second-Quarter: Electrek

Yeah, and my goal this year is to get a 6 pack but if I just go from a gut to a 2 pack I don't think anyone would call my health plan a failure.

Libertarians tend to hold a somewhat odd stance on this. They(kinda “we”) should support penalties up to and including jail time for polluters, as polluting violates the non-aggression principle, since it causes direct harm to other people. I think a lot of them just have blinders on because “they aren't libertarians at all but rather conservatives who don't like that label”.

Fixed that for ya.

 

[neroden]

This is what my conservative coworkers say. If it doesn't happen in thirty years, I don't care. These are educated people with kids that are saying this. There's no response that you can give to this kind of thinking.

These people are not conservative, but they are right-wing. I cannot comprehend their attitude. The best I can I guess is that they just think of their kids as toys to play with or tools to use, and don't care what happens to their kids after they die.

 

[abasile]

OT

Ehh, that assumes the person is consuming more calories to offset their exercise and that we are on a standard western, high meat diet right?

Exercising to lose weight is a win-win, of course! If you're eating beef or lamb, then I'd expect the energy numbers to be significantly worse than what I threw out there. As I recall, though, even a vegetarian with a dairy-rich diet will typically have a pretty significant greenhouse gas footprint.

It'll be great to see major reductions in the footprint associated with our food production. Indoor farming looks promising, for one. Switching to EVs for trucking, tractors, etc. will help some. I briefly considered investing in BYND as well, but that's got its own thread...

 

[dc_h]

Wisconsin to get Tesla dealerships!!!

Tesla provision helps get Wisconsin legislator behind budget — ABC News

 

[kengchang]

Um, the S & X produced on one single line are Ravens.

I did the factory tour last Oct and S/X is on the same line. Last Oct has no Raven.

 

[neroden]

I did the factory tour last Oct and S/X is on the same line. Last Oct has no Raven.

Um, are you talking final assembly line or body line? One final assembly line, SEPARATE body lines, as of last year last I heard.

 

[Antares Nebula]

Some after hours mischief going on...

 

[kengchang]

Um, are you talking final assembly line or body line? One final assembly line, SEPARATE body lines, as of last year last I heard.

Final assembly line, S/X body line was never shown during factory tour.