Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[insaneoctane]

Is this another lie?

How Elon Musk Dodged a Potential Margin Call Bullet by Following His Own Advice

The Tesla CEO might regret buying the social-media platform, but he doesn't have to regret the way he financed it.

www.marketwatch.com

The MM would never lie...right?

 

[Captkerosene]

Just sold my hangar. Guess where that money is going?

Also, I've been very critical of my experiences driving Beta is a small town in the Northern Rockies. (Worse than worthless.) Just the opposite is true in AZ where I had my first intervention free drive on the way to my sister's for Christmas. Terrific progress.

 

[thx1139]

What does this imply? (Asking for a friend who is a non-native speaker)

This page doesnt have any Tesla's on it.

Credits for new clean vehicles purchased in 2023 or after | Internal Revenue Service

You may qualify for a clean vehicle tax credit up to $7,500 if you buy a new, qualified plug-in electric vehicle or fuel cell electric vehicle.

www.irs.gov

As of now only Ford, Nissan, Stellantis, and Rivian vehicles listed. Says to check back for additions to this list.

 

[bubb]

IMO Rob is a treasure to the community who sometimes sticks his neck out in public and generally takes responsibility when he has been wrong, unlike many of the toxic bull "influencers" on social media.

 

[Discoducky]

AWE SNAP!
Treasury update:
https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1179
All vehicles other than sub compacts are not limited by the incremental cost clause for commercial clean vehicles, full $7,500 available for GVWR < 14k pounds (if BEV cost is >25k)
Vehicles >14k pounds are in a Department of Energy document not yet released.

Edit: also includes very preliminary thoughts on the mineral/ component aspects of the IRA https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/30DWhite-Paper.pdf

This is fun, confusing and a bit terrifying to read.

Fun part - Tesla totally qualifies for all of this, even before the final March 2023 details are announced. But I think everyone already knows that. Please comment on specifics if you feel differently as it clearly calls out things that Tesla is already doing well above the required percentages.

And per this, it would seem we are about to get announcements about the new Tesla factories in Canada and Mexico

"For purposes of both the critical mineral and the battery component requirements, Treasury and the IRS anticipate proposing that North America means the territory of the United States, Canada, and Mexico as defined in 19 C.F.R. part 182, Appendix A, § 1(1)."

Confusing part - Lots of details remain (slated for March 2023) and the wording is like a multi-nested IF/THEN loop statement. 4-step value of battery components process and a 3-step critical mineral requirement which somehow includes foil? WTF?

That brings me to the terrifying part - The gov is going to have to oversee all of this and I can't even imagine how much 'gaming the system' is going to occur over the next decade. This seems way overly complex and super difficult to manage. For instance, try to think about how you'd manage to calculate value based on this description.

"Value -- Value means the arm’s-length price that was paid or would be paid for the property by an unrelated purchaser determined in accordance with the principles of section 482 and regulations thereunder."

 

[dhanson865]

This page doesnt have any Tesla's on it.

Credits for new clean vehicles purchased in 2023 or after | Internal Revenue Service

You may qualify for a clean vehicle tax credit up to $7,500 if you buy a new, qualified plug-in electric vehicle or fuel cell electric vehicle.

www.irs.gov

As of now only Ford, Nissan, Stellantis, and Rivian vehicles listed. Says to check back for additions to this list.

That page lists cars made in 2021, 2022, and 2023. Interesting that they'll allow the $7,500 credit on a car mad in a prior year.

 

[thx1139]

This is fun, confusing and a bit terrifying to read.

Fun part - Tesla totally qualifies for all of this, even before the final March 2023 details are announced. But I think everyone already knows that. Please comment on specifics if you feel differently as it clearly calls out things that Tesla is already doing well above the required percentages.

And per this, it would seem we are about to get announcements about the new Tesla factories in Canada and Mexico

"For purposes of both the critical mineral and the battery component requirements, Treasury and the IRS anticipate proposing that North America means the territory of the United States, Canada, and Mexico as defined in 19 C.F.R. part 182, Appendix A, § 1(1)."

Confusing part - Lots of details remain (slated for March 2023) and the wording is like a multi-nested IF/THEN loop statement. 4-step value of battery components process and a 3-step critical mineral requirement which somehow includes foil? WTF?

That brings me to the terrifying part - The gov is going to have to oversee all of this and I can't even imagine how much 'gaming the system' is going to occur over the next decade. This seems way overly complex and super difficult to manage. For instance, try to think about how you'd manage to calculate value based on this description.

"Value -- Value means the arm’s-length price that was paid or would be paid for the property by an unrelated purchaser determined in accordance with the principles of section 482 and regulations thereunder."

Weird thing is the page with the specific vehicles appears to be sourced by the manufacturers. In other words the manufacturers indicated which of their vehicles are eligible.

"Qualified Manufacturers of the vehicles listed below have indicated that the vehicles are currently eligible for a credit provided other requirements are met. Check back for additions to this list."


Did Tesla not provide the information needed to get included?

 

[insaneoctane]

...Did Tesla not provide the information needed to get included?

Wouldn't Tesla be heavily motivated to not provide such a list until 2023?

 

[ElectricIAC]

That page lists cars made in 2021, 2022, and 2023. Interesting that they'll allow the $7,500 credit on a car mad in a prior year.

BEV credit was already gone but our MX demo was sold as a new unit despite being previous model year inventory.

 

[Max Plaid]

Probably a pack of lies, as it's Reuters, but they claim Manchin is trying to delay the IRA introduction:

Senator wants U.S. to pause implementation of new electric vehicle tax credits

Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee chair Joe Manchin on Thursday urged the U.S. Treasury to pause implementation of commercial and consumer electric vehicle tax credits.

www.reuters.com

Didn't realise this idiot was the chair of the "Energy and Natural Resources Committee", great idea to put a coal-shill in charge of that

 

[mongo]

What does this imply? (Asking for a friend who is a non-native speaker)

Companies can buy or least a (non-Semi) Tesla can get a $7,500 tax credit regardless of what goes on with the other section of the bill which is:

This is fun, confusing and a bit terrifying to read.

Fun part - Tesla totally qualifies for all of this, even before the final March 2023 details are announced. But I think everyone already knows that. Please comment on specifics if you feel differently as it clearly calls out things that Tesla is already doing well above the required percentages.

And per this, it would seem we are about to get announcements about the new Tesla factories in Canada and Mexico

"For purposes of both the critical mineral and the battery component requirements, Treasury and the IRS anticipate proposing that North America means the territory of the United States, Canada, and Mexico as defined in 19 C.F.R. part 182, Appendix A, § 1(1)."

Confusing part - Lots of details remain (slated for March 2023) and the wording is like a multi-nested IF/THEN loop statement. 4-step value of battery components process and a 3-step critical mineral requirement which somehow includes foil? WTF?

That brings me to the terrifying part - The gov is going to have to oversee all of this and I can't even imagine how much 'gaming the system' is going to occur over the next decade. This seems way overly complex and super difficult to manage. For instance, try to think about how you'd manage to calculate value based on this description.

"Value -- Value means the arm’s-length price that was paid or would be paid for the property by an unrelated purchaser determined in accordance with the principles of section 482 and regulations thereunder."

This page doesnt have any Tesla's on it.

Credits for new clean vehicles purchased in 2023 or after | Internal Revenue Service

You may qualify for a clean vehicle tax credit up to $7,500 if you buy a new, qualified plug-in electric vehicle or fuel cell electric vehicle.

www.irs.gov

As of now only Ford, Nissan, Stellantis, and Rivian vehicles listed. Says to check back for additions to this list.

Right, because it's self reported. Page is only informative, not regulating.

Weird thing is the page with the specific vehicles appears to be sourced by the manufacturers. In other words the manufacturers indicated which of their vehicles are eligible.

"Qualified Manufacturers of the vehicles listed below have indicated that the vehicles are currently eligible for a credit provided other requirements are met. Check back for additions to this list."


Did Tesla not provide the information needed to get included?

Yeah, or didn't bother to since the list doesn't matter.

 

[ElectricIAC]

great idea to put a coal-shill in charge of that

It’s perfect.

EV’s are a great way to sell more coal.

 

[SOULPEDL]

Weird thing is the page with the specific vehicles appears to be sourced by the manufacturers. In other words the manufacturers indicated which of their vehicles are eligible.

"Qualified Manufacturers of the vehicles listed below have indicated that the vehicles are currently eligible for a credit provided other requirements are met. Check back for additions to this list."


Did Tesla not provide the information needed to get included?

Me thinks by design... Tesla was never asked, or wrong eMail? Dark money must hate this bill (except GM who gets another shot at it having past 200K units sold in US). Reminds me of the Self-driving Top 10 lists in recent past - also devoid of Tesla in any lists.

 

[SOULPEDL]

Companies can buy or least a (non-Semi) Tesla can get a $7,500 tax credit regardless of what goes on with the other section of the bill which is:




Right, because it's self reported. Page is only informative, not regulating.


Yeah, or didn't bother to since the list doesn't matter.

Oh.... on that last part... unless it's cleared up somehow, it will get quoted. The motivation is perfectly real and obvious - no discounts on Tesla's will drive some away. I do think it matters on Stock Price, not delivery numbers and maybe what you meant.

 

[Discoducky]

IMO Rob is a treasure to the community who sometimes sticks his neck out in public and generally takes responsibility when he has been wrong, unlike many of the toxic bull "influencers" on social media.

I tend to agree and have supported Rob, on Patreon, for years, as he has been the single point of consistency throughout the Tesla roller-coaster experience.

However, there is a sense now of continued vigilance in the face of very difficult context, lack of critical details, non-native translation issues and timezone delays. It is important to realize when you don't have enough good trusted information to make a judgement/discernment.

My biggest issue currently is that it is currently unknown what exactly will be the gov discounts on hybrids and BEVs (partially) in China starting Jan 1st. To the best of my Google foo, this is wholly unknown and material to what is happening currently in China. And on top of that, what is the state of gov discounts in every other country? Even in the US, this is NOT well understood.

Do you think Tesla knows better than us? I'd bet my life savings on it.

Do I think Rob generally has a better handle on this than just about anyone else? Yeah, pretty much always.

 

[EVNow]

Sadly Rob Maurer was still saying even yesterday on his Tesla Daily podcast that he can't see any way that the situation in China could be due to anything except a drop in demand. SMH.

I happen to trust Rob a lot, watch him still, but some conclusions don't always turn out. I'm the king of examples there. Have you ever drawn wrong conclusions, then posted it here?

I do think this China noise was orchestrated as a head fake (rumor allowed to fester), and delivered intentionally to catch shortz off guard. And it worked to a degree, Reuters helped a lot. I also think more is in store for us.

The jury is still out.

There are confusing signals from China ... could be because of softening demand (at current price level), changes coming in Jan, Covid response etc.

We'll know what happened in Q4 in a few days .... but Q1 '23 is going to set the record straight.

 

[saniflash]

Probably a pack of lies, as it's Reuters, but they claim Manchin is trying to delay the IRA introduction:

Senator wants U.S. to pause implementation of new electric vehicle tax credits

Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee chair Joe Manchin on Thursday urged the U.S. Treasury to pause implementation of commercial and consumer electric vehicle tax credits.

www.reuters.com

Didn't realise this idiot was the chair of the "Energy and Natural Resources Committee", great idea to put a coal-shill in charge of that

in related "news" from our friends at Reuters,

Focus: Tesla used car price bubble pops, weighs on new car demand

Tesla buyers who waited months for their new car have had an unusual choice for much of the past two years: keep the new electric vehicle, or sell it at a profit to someone with less patience.

www.reuters.com

Prices of used Teslas are falling faster than those of other carmakers and the clean-energy status symbols are languishing in dealer lots longer, industry data provided to Reuters showed.

The average price for a used Tesla in November was $55,754, down 17% from a July peak of $67,297. The overall used car market posted a 4% drop during that period, according to Edmunds data. The used Teslas were in dealer inventory for 50 days on average in November, compared with 38 days for all used cars.

 

[ElectricIAC]

in related "news" from our friends at Reuters,

Focus: Tesla used car price bubble pops, weighs on new car demand

Tesla buyers who waited months for their new car have had an unusual choice for much of the past two years: keep the new electric vehicle, or sell it at a profit to someone with less patience.

www.reuters.com

Tesla buyers aren’t the only ones who overpaid in the 18 months prior to today.

 

[SOULPEDL]

in related "news" from our friends at Reuters,

Focus: Tesla used car price bubble pops, weighs on new car demand

Tesla buyers who waited months for their new car have had an unusual choice for much of the past two years: keep the new electric vehicle, or sell it at a profit to someone with less patience.

www.reuters.com

I read this part, what a joke... more like the coal enrichment committee char.

"Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee chair Joe Manchin"

 

[thx1139]

Me thinks by design... Tesla was never asked, or wrong eMail? Dark money must hate this bill (except GM who gets another shot at it having past 200K units sold in US). Reminds me of the Self-driving Top 10 lists in recent past - also devoid of Tesla in any lists.

GM cars arent listed either.