-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable
- Thread starter AudubonB
- Start date
insaneoctane
Well-Known Member
I guess Tesla better go back to the drawing board for the Roadster 2.0, because Dodge has bested them....
"....1,025 horsepower Demon 170, the world’s first sustainable-energy, eight-second factory-production, street-legal muscle car.”
And....
"High-flow fuel injectors are capable of providing 164 gallons per hour, more than the average U.S. shower head".
And...
"0-60 mph in 1.66 seconds and generate the highest g-force acceleration of any production car2 at 2.004 Gs"
Source :
"....1,025 horsepower Demon 170, the world’s first sustainable-energy, eight-second factory-production, street-legal muscle car.”
And....
"High-flow fuel injectors are capable of providing 164 gallons per hour, more than the average U.S. shower head".
And...
"0-60 mph in 1.66 seconds and generate the highest g-force acceleration of any production car2 at 2.004 Gs"
Source :
2023 Dodge Challenger SRT Demon 170 | DodgeGarage
The SRT® Demon 170 is most powerful muscle car in the world with 1,025 horsepower
www.dodgegarage.com
Andy O
Member
All discussion of Nikola Motors
I disagree. I think there is little doubt. :) Weeelll ... technically what they wrote was both more accurate and WORSE than what you wrote. TL;DR their 10-K. Did they admit to selling their trucks at a loss? Last I checked, without even amortizing factory/toolings costs, their COGS were...
teslamotorsclub.com
Chevy Blazer, Equinox, and Silverado are on there as 2024 models slated to be available around the end of the year, very similar to the latest CT news we have
Who knows though
Pushing into 2024 will bring new requirements pending further guidance to be released on vehicles being disqualified from the credit in the new year if they contain any battery components from China/Russia/North Korea/Iran, although the interpretation so far from Treasury has been pretty forgiving so who knows what the result will be from that.
Last edited:
Pretty quiet in the TeSaLAloon for 48 hours before earnings and Starship launch. Good sign?
The only good sign is there are no good signs. Oh wait that doesn't make sense. Sort of like TSLA price action.
Olle
Active Member
It's been a while since dumping accusations in the auto industry, it has been relatively stale since the 'Japanese auto invasion' in the 1980s. Here is one from 1988:
Here we go again, three decades later:
/cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/VRI4UGS4FZNKBCVUL6YXGNMNEU.jpg)
www.reuters.com
Automakers don't release news like this to sell cars, because this is terrible advertising. "look how our sales were going up until Tesla came and sabotaged our industry with price dumping" I think they post this stuff to have a trail in case they later feel like suing Tesla fur dumping or reporting them to trade commissions in various countries. Probably riles up support already among local politicians who don't want to have any job losses on their watch.
Everybody knows that this is not a price war, since prices are a function of supply and demand. Buyers set prices in competitive markets, not manufacturers. Doesn't stop anybody from playing political games of course.
Here we go again, three decades later:
Renault reviewing prices worldwide after Tesla cuts
French carmaker Renault is reviewing its pricing policies for electric cars worldwide to ensure it stays competitive after a wave of price cuts by U.S. rival Tesla Inc , a top executive said on Monday.
www.reuters.com
Automakers don't release news like this to sell cars, because this is terrible advertising. "look how our sales were going up until Tesla came and sabotaged our industry with price dumping" I think they post this stuff to have a trail in case they later feel like suing Tesla fur dumping or reporting them to trade commissions in various countries. Probably riles up support already among local politicians who don't want to have any job losses on their watch.
Everybody knows that this is not a price war, since prices are a function of supply and demand. Buyers set prices in competitive markets, not manufacturers. Doesn't stop anybody from playing political games of course.
Last edited:
CyberDutchie
Active Member
Just wait… there will be some speculation in the news tomorrow and Wednesday of a massive beat in earnings by Tesla. A new impossible to beat “whisper” number will be all over the financial media, just to be able to create the “Tesla missed” headlines post-earnings
It is proven to work over and over again. The TSLA bulls all fall into this trap because they cannot contain their enthusiasm. Because of this, Tesla will never surprise ever again
Tesla bulls are all scared of earnings now. Most people are buying puts to hedge or just getting out all together. The only ones buying right now prior to earnings are the contrarian traders. I am looking around and no one is enthusiastic and are already trying to explain the miss that everyone thinks is coming.
I believe most Tesla bulls are coming in with an EPS lower than wall street consensus. Wall street is using a gm of a little over 21% while everyone else are being cautious sitting in the 18-20% range.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Its not dumping if you are making money. Also, not dumping if the price at home and abroad are similar.
But all the IRS related credits can be construed to give unfair advantage. Thats why all these "domestic sourced only" credits can be challenged in WTO ...
One strategy that I'm currently employing is selling some stock (all around the $200 share price cost basis area so won't be hit by taxes from this) and buying the equivalent number of Dec 2025 LEAPS. So sell 500 shares and then by 5 of the LEAPS. If the margins are great, well I have the upside protection from those LEAPS. If the stock tumbles because of weak margins, especially if the margins are due to something I feel confident will ease throughout the year, I'll just wait for the stock to sell off for a bit and use the excess cash on hand to buy stock outright.
Last edited:
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
AFAIK the IRS "what qualifies" list is based on data provided by the individual car makers- Tesla might have just chosen not to provide it for CT.
Either to keep some info private for now, or because they intend to have early production be the higher-spec versions that wouldn't qualify anyway due to the price cap (which is the same reason neither Hummer EV GM sells the rest of the year would qualify)
it's not like that list is locked down forever- it'll change somewhat regularly (either annually as the mineral sourcing requirement fraction goes up, or during the year as car makers change sourcing or assembly locations on things- many have already announced investment toward doing that specifically to capture IRA credits in the future)
CyberDutchie
Active Member
Yes, bulls may have gotten scared by what happened after seeing Q1 production & delivery report reaction and subsequent drop. I hope they all learn to temper expectations. One example that annoyed me recently is Ross Gerber. He expected 500 deliveries and when that didn’t pan out upped his attacks on Elon. His comments like “the growth story is over” are not very helpful. Can you imagine wanting a guy like Ross on Tesla’s board?
Optimeer
Member
Not sure if this was posted. Official list of vehicles getting the tax credit after April 18th.
Federal Tax Credits for Plug-in Electric and Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles Purchased in 2023 or After
Save up to $7,500 on qualifying vehicles!fueleconomy.gov
Notable items.
-Missing the Model 3 Long range from the list.
-Mustang Mach-E is just $3750
-All the GM EV's getting the full credit of $7500.
-As has been pretty clear for a while the RWD model 3 only getting $3750.
Stretch2727, thank you very much for this link.
I conducted an analysis and came to the conclusion, that in Q2 about 75 % of all tax credits will be spoken for cars from Tesla. For this calculation, I assumed that the eligible models from Tesla will show the same growth as the eligible models from other manufacturers in Q2 compared to Q1 2023.
I created three tables. One for cars which are no more eligible for a tax credit beginning tomorrow, one for cars which are eligible for a reduced tax credit and the last one for cars which are not affected from a reduction.
There are 21 models which are no more eligible for the tax credit starting tomorrow.
| Make | Model | Year | Vehicle Type | Credit Amount Vehicle placed in service after December 31, 2022, and before April 18, 2023 | Credit Amount Vehicle placed in service on or after April 18, 2023 | MSRP Limit |
| Audi | Q5 TFSI e Quattro (PHEV) | 2023 | PHEV | $7'500 | $0 | $80'000 |
| BMW | 330e | 2021-2023 | PHEV | $5’836 | $0 | $55,000 |
| BMW | X5 xDrive45e | 2021-2023 | PHEV | $7’500 | $0 | $80,000 |
| Genesis | Electrified GV70 | 2023-2024 | EV | $7’500 | $0 | $80,000 |
| Nissan | Leaf S | 2021-2023 | EV | $7’500 | $0 | $55,000 |
| Nissan | Leaf S Plus | 2021-2022 | EV | $7’500 | $0 | $55,000 |
| Nissan | Leaf SL Plus | 2021-2022 | EV | $7’500 | $0 | $55,000 |
| Nissan | Leaf SV | 2021-2022 | EV | $7’500 | $0 | $55,000 |
| Nissan | Leaf SV Plus | 2021-2023 | EV | $7’500 | $0 | $55,000 |
| Rivian | R1S | 2022-2023 | EV | $7’500 | $0 | $80,000 |
| Rivian | R1T | 2022-2023 | EV | $7’500 | $0 | $80,000 |
| Tesla | Model 3 Long Range | 2022-2023 | EV | $7’500 | no longer listed | $55,000 |
| Volkswagen | ID.4 | 2023 | EV | $7’500 | $0 | $80,000 |
| Volkswagen | ID.4 AWD Pro | 2023 | EV | $7’500 | $0 | $80,000 |
| Volkswagen | ID.4 AWD Pro S | 2023 | EV | $7’500 | $0 | $80,000 |
| Volkswagen | ID.4 Pro | 2023 | EV | $7’500 | $0 | $80,000 |
| Volkswagen | ID.4 Pro S | 2023 | EV | $7’500 | $0 | $80,000 |
| Volkswagen | ID.4 S | 2023 | EV | $7’500 | $0 | $80,000 |
| Volvo | S60 (PHEV) | 2022 | PHEV | $5’419 | $0 | $55,000 |
| Volvo | S60 Extended Range | 2022 | PHEV | $7’500 | $0 | $55,000 |
| Volvo | S60 T8 Recharge (Extended Range) | 2023 | PHEV | $7’500 | $0 | $55,000 |
Then there are 7 models which see a reduction of the credit. During Q1 2023, of these models estimated 40'000 cars were from Tesla and 15'000 cars were from other manufacturers.
| Make | Model | Year | Vehicle Type | Credit Amount Vehicle placed in service after December 31, 2022, and before April 18, 2023 | Credit Amount Vehicle placed in service on or after April 18, 2023 | MSRP Limit | Unit sold in Q1 2023 according to my research | Outlook |
| Ford | E-Transit | 2022-2023 | EV | $7’500 | $3’750 | $80,000 | 1168 | |
| Ford | Escape Plug-In Hybrid | 2022/2023 | PHEV | $6’843/$6’885 | $3’750 | $80,000 | 21149 (ICE and PHEV) | |
| Ford | Mustang Mach-E (Standard/Extended Range Battery) | 2022-2023 | EV | $7’500 | $3’750 | $80,000 | 5407 | Targeted runrate of 210'000 by end of 2023 |
| Jeep | Grand Cherokee 4xe | 2022-2023 | PHEV | $7’500 | $3’750 | $80,000 | Total of 3473 JEEP PHEV's sold in Q1 | |
| Jeep | Wrangler 4xe | 2022-2023 | PHEV | $7’500 | $3’750 | $80,000 | Total of 3473 JEEP PHEV's sold in Q1 | |
| Lincoln | Corsair Grand Touring | 2022/2023 | PHEV | $6'843/6'885 | $3'750 | $80,000 | 4023 ICE and PHEV | |
| Tesla | Model 3 RWD | 2022-2023 | EV | $7’500 | $3’750 | $55,000 | Model 3 SR and P: 51'718 estimate Troy Teslike | Model 3 Highland |
And finally here the table with 13 models which still apply for the full tax credit. During Q1 2023, of these models estimated 111'000 cars were from Tesla and 28'500 cars were from other manufacturers.
| Make | Model | Year | Vehicle Type | Credit Amount Vehicle placed in service after December 31, 2022, and before April 18, 2023 | Credit Amount Vehicle placed in service on or after April 18, 2023 | MSRP Limit | Unit sold in Q1 2023 according to my research | Outlook |
| Cadillac | Lyriq | 2022-2024 | EV | $7’500 | $7’500 | $80,000 | 968 | |
| Chevrolet | Blazer | 2024 | EV | was not listed | $7’500 | $80,000 | 0 | |
| Chevrolet | Bolt | 2022-2023 | EV | $7’500 | $7’500 | $55,000 | 19700 (Bolt and Bolt EUV) | Target for 2023: 70'000 (Bolt and Bolt EUV) |
| Chevrolet | Bolt EUV | 2022-2023 | EV | $7’500 | $7’500 | $55,000 | 19700 (Bolt and Bolt EUV) | Target for 2023: 70'000 (Bolt and Bolt EUV) |
| Chevrolet | Equinox | 2024 | EV | was not listed | $7’500 | $80,000 | 0 | - |
| Chevrolet | Silverado EV | 2024 | EV | $7’500 | $7’500 | $80,000 | 0 | Currently over 340 fleet orders |
| Chrysler | Pacifica PHEV | 2022-2023 | PHEV (16 kWh battery) | $7’500 | $7’500 | $80,000 | 3473 Chrysler PHEV's sold in Q1 | |
| Ford | F-150 Lightning (Standard/Extended Range Battery) | 2022-2023 | EV | $7’500 | $7’500 | $80,000 | 4291 | Targeted runrate of 150'000 by End of 2023 |
| Lincoln | Aviator Grand Touring | 2022-2023 | PHEV | $6'534 | $7’500 | $80,000 | 5236 ICE and PHEV | |
| Tesla | Model 3 Performance | 2022-2023 | EV | $7’500 | $7’500 | $55,000 | Model 3 SR and P: 51'718 estimate Troy Teslike | - |
| Tesla | Model Y All-Wheel Drive | 2022-2023 | EV | $7’500 | $7’500 | $80,000 | Model Y AWD, LR and P: 99613 (Troy Teslike) | Production at Giga Texas is currently ramping |
| Tesla | Model Y Long Range | 2022-2023 | EV | $7’500 | $7’500 | $80,000 | Model Y AWD, LR and P: 99613 (Troy Teslike) | Production at Giga Texas is currently ramping |
| Tesla | Model Y Performance | 2022-2023 | EV | $7’500 | $7’500 | $80,000 | Model Y AWD, LR and P: 99613 (Troy Teslike) | Production at Giga Texas is currently ramping |
bullish
Thank you this is super interesting - and - aggravating - so why is a Performance Model 3 getting full tax credit but a Model 3 RWD only gets half.
Funny also that both have an MSRP limit of 55k.
Yeah, stuff like that just tempers expectations and who wants that?
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Nothing funny about it- they're both sedans, so same MSRP limit.
One gets it because the batteries come from Nevada, the other gets half because the batteries come from China (it's slightly more complex than that, sourcing of the materials and such, but that's the short version)
Thx, y’all! Ever so often, I imagine what my life would be without you all - no Tesla Tequila, no SpaceX starship torch on order, no mutual support for HODL-ing in spite of MMDs - and my life would be so less extra - thx for being there, or rather here, or wherever the hell u r.This is F***ing awesome!
STARSHIP TORCH PRE-SALE
*PRE-SALE. BURNING Q3 2023 The man in black, Johnny Cash knew a thing or two about burning desire. But love isn’t the only thing that burns. Sometimes you just want to caramelize the sugar on a crème brûlée or melt some cheese without all the subtext. Enter the Starship Torch. Designed to...shop.spacex.com
I believe either DOJO or Hopper came online(or both). These are suppose to train at 5-20x the speed of Tesla's old A100s. Tesla seems to be having bigger data sets from 400k+ beta testers so one should expect each iteration to come out slower than faster.
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
