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This thread is fast becoming useless again. It has been taken over by discussing Elon’s tweets (theres a thread for that) and global warming (also a thread). Can we get back to TSLA investment topics?
Mod: completely agree. I'm recovering from an injury, and don't have the bandwidth to move posts out, let alone to two different threads. However I probably do have the bandwidth to just nuke them. So please either cease the discussion about this morning's tweet, or take it to the right place.
1. Elon & Twitter
or
2. Climate change
--ggr
 
I believe the $7500 Fed Tax Credit only applies against tax you pay; the EV tax credit is nonrefundable; only up to your tax liablity.
My married daughter with 2 children have a household income of $76K and their total tax for 2022 was $1700 (including $4000 for child tax credit).
Asssuming that their taxes will be similar in 2023 I believe their Fed EV tax credit would be $1700; not $7500.
I hope someone can tell me I am wrong.
That is correct, clean vehicle credit is non-refundable credit.
However (and I am not an accountant), the child credit is partly refundable (1,500) so they "may" be able to take $4,700 of the vehicle credit, and get a $3k refund.
Other possibility might be rolling some money from an existing IRA or old 401k (no longer at that employer) to a Roth. That pulls tax liability forward.
 
That is correct, clean vehicle credit is non-refundable credit.
However (and I am not an accountant), the child credit is partly refundable (1,500) so they "may" be able to take $4,700 of the vehicle credit, and get a $3k refund.
Other possibility might be rolling some money from an existing IRA or old 401k (no longer at that employer) to a Roth. That pulls tax liability forward.


FWIW I believe your spoiler observation is correct- you can take all non-refundable credits "first" so to speak (to a max of your tax obligation and losing the rest) and then put the refundable on top after and get that "back" as well.
 
I read this: "Regional bank stocks recover after huge losses this week."
Coincidentally, yesterday I read a couple of articles suggesting a potential "crackdown" on regional bank stock short sellers. I guess it's OK to do some thieving but not OK to crash the whole system. Just a theory for a Friday.
Market can't have its toys taken away, so regional banks will be taken care of... So that market makers can continue to punish investment grade company making cars with profit while decreasing prices and costs in setting of increasing volumes (so called economies of scale) while driving other manufacturers out of business (pun intended).
 
Here is the response I got from my friend who I sent "more information about electrification" as requested.

i read your lengthy message . i do not particularly agree with everything ..the electric car thing has been shoved down our throats by the oil and gas hating portion of the government ...we can agree to disagree..OK ??

... and my brief reply... yeah, yeah, I know :rolleyes: where is the beating a dead horse emoji?

It turned out as a fairly comprehensive tome that might be useful for others, so I'm sharing it with y'all too.

Enjoy

(begin copy)

If you would take time to read though this and consider the info I'd appreciate it.

I'm sharing it because you are a friend, not because I'm on a soapbox. I don't have anything to gain by taking time to do this.

You have my promise this will be the last novel you will see about this from me. 😁 If it inspires you to learn more, you will find plenty of information elsewhere.


Electric vehicles:
  • Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) is less expensive over 5 years than the best selling ICE vehicle (Toyota Corolla)
  • have fewer maintenance hassles
  • offer higher reliability
  • improve throughout ownership with over the air updates (most recalls, performance increases, new features, etc. are automatically updated via software without leaving your garage)
  • have better performance (the fastest production vehicles are electric and the least expensive BEVs outperform most of the ICE fleet)
  • have more useful features*
  • don't require advertising to sell the product**
(edit: not sure why the below got formatted as a quote, it isn't)
*for example, Tesla has "Dog Mode" that will maintain the inside temperature of the locked vehicle while parked with a pet inside. Daisy (edit: his dog) would like this.

**advertising costs must be included in the purchase price from any manufacturer that advertises.
Tesla has never advertised their products. They depend upon word of mouth only. It is difficult to imagine how this one auto maker whose stock has the largest market cap of all auto makers, and whose profit margin is the highest of all auto makers (ICE and BEV) is somehow being "shoved down" anyone's throat. Particularly when all of their profits are being spent on research and development, expanding production, and streamlining their manufacturing processes.

The oil and gas industry:
  • spends a significant portion of their profits on advertising and on the lobbying of legislators (as do the legacy auto manufacturers)
  • receives more billions in annual subsidies from state and federal government than do all the sustainable energy groups combined
These facts indicate the exact opposite of your statement. They don't call the US Dollar the "Petro-Dollar" for nothing. Oil, and the industries it supports have been the most significant controlling factor of US government policy for decades.


Despite this level of influence and control over the policies and narrative that Big Oil and Big Auto wield, more and more of those shopping for and purchasing new cars are finding a better value offered by electric vehicle manufacturers. This is not a fad. Gas cars are going away. They are going away now. Here's why.

They are going away because there is an alternative that has a lower TCO, is more reliable, and provides a better ownership experience.

As of Q1 of this year the best selling (gas or electric) SUV in the US and Europe is the Tesla Model Y.


The fastest growing segment of the auto industry is the battery electric vehicle. The BEV percentage of all cars sold globally is growing exponentially, not linearly.


Battery Electric Vehicles share of global car market over time:
  • 2% share in 2018;
  • 4% share in 2020;
  • 8% share in 2021;
  • 14% share in 2022

This growing trend is doubling the BEV share of the global auto market every 1 to 2 years. At this astounding rate BEV sales will be at 50% share of new cars sold in only three or four years, and is expected to be 80% of the new vehicle market by ~2030, if not sooner.

The really crazy thing is how, back in 2013, Elon Musk outlined a plan to reach these exact goals and has been spot on with hitting those targets for ten years. This transition away from fossil fuel cars is based upon a decade old plan with an unprecedented success rate over the long haul.


The ICE vehicle manufacturers have been stagnant in their research and development for decades, riding on technology that has not taken advantage of new developments. This is why there was a "chip shortage." The chip manufacturers have significantly reduced production of old technology chips that the ICE OEMs depend upon. The chip manufacturers shut down those lines when the ICE OEMs canceled orders during COVID, and they replaced those aging lines with modern chip production facilities making modern chips for other customers. The ICE manufacturers and their supply chain were using ten+ year old tech and did not have the necessary talent to create replacement modules using current technology electronic components.


Heck, I've been waiting on Ford to deliver a Transmission Control Unit for my car since October of last year for a warranty repair on a 2015 model. They tell me that maybe this month it may finally arrive. I'm fortunate the car can be driven, else I'd have been doing without a vehicle for seven months while waiting on parts from the factory. Legacy OEMs are struggling in this new age.



Electric vehicles are becoming dominant simply because they make sense. Electric vehicles cost less over their lifetime, have 90% fewer moving parts to fail, you can fill it up at home while you sleep, and in the not too distant future they may not even have a steering wheel and will carry us to our destination autonomously. This is what drives sales of BEVs without even mentioning the climate, or the health benefits.

A similar change is happening in the production of energy. Use of solar panels, wind generation, and large scale battery storage are replacing fossil fuel power plants all over the world at a growing pace, simply because it costs less to make power this way. Getting away from the pollution is just a side benefit. Texas and California are the leading states in this transition in the US.

These are facts that are easily verified. Those who are aware of this will be in a better position to benefit than those who won't take time to verify whether there are any actual facts supporting the stories they base their decisions upon.

Hopefully you will see this more clearly as the evidence of this change stacks up around you. The numbers tell the story for anyone willing to set aside preconceived notions and rhetoric such as "gas hating portion of government" and who will give the information an honest look before dismissing it out of hand.

Thanks for taking the time. I'd rather try to share this now than look back someday wishing I had.

Let me know if I can help with more info, otherwise I'll let it be.
(end copy)
 
I believe the $7500 Fed Tax Credit only applies against tax you pay; the EV tax credit is nonrefundable; only up to your tax liablity.
My married daughter with 2 children have a household income of $76K and their total tax for 2022 was $1700 (including $4000 for child tax credit).
Asssuming that their taxes will be similar in 2023 I believe their Fed EV tax credit would be $1700; not $7500.
I hope someone can tell me I am wrong.
This is correct. However, they may still be able to take advantage of the full credit. If they have funds in a tIRA, they can do a Roth conversion to increase their tax liability up to $7500. The EV tax credit would essentially pay for the Roth conversion and keep their tax liability at zero.
 
That is correct, clean vehicle credit is non-refundable credit.
However (and I am not an accountant), the child credit is partly refundable (1,500) so they "may" be able to take $4,700 of the vehicle credit, and get a $3k refund.
Other possibility might be rolling some money from an existing IRA or old 401k (no longer at that employer) to a Roth. That pulls tax liability forward.
Which is why I didn’t bother to claim it with either of my purchases. My bill is already embarrassingly low.
 
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Here is the response I got from my friend who I sent "more information about electrification" as requested.



... and my brief reply... yeah, yeah, I know :rolleyes: where is the beating a dead horse emoji?

It turned out as a fairly comprehensive tome that might be useful for others, so I'm sharing it with y'all too.

Enjoy

There is so much still to go for mass adoption of EVs and for stubborn people to get around it

For example, Carwow released a short video of the new track package on Instagram. I get it that those who follow Carwow are car enthusiasts, but you have to scroll pretty far down to find one positive comment, it's one braindead take after another

 
Here is the response I got from my friend who I sent "more information about electrification" as requested.



... and my brief reply... yeah, yeah, I know :rolleyes: where is the beating a dead horse emoji?

It turned out as a fairly comprehensive tome that might be useful for others, so I'm sharing it with y'all too.

Enjoy

(begin copy)

If you would take time to read though this and consider the info I'd appreciate it.

I'm sharing it because you are a friend, not because I'm on a soapbox. I don't have anything to gain by taking time to do this.

You have my promise this will be the last novel you will see about this from me. 😁 If it inspires you to learn more, you will find plenty of information elsewhere.


Electric vehicles:
  • Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) is less expensive over 5 years than the best selling ICE vehicle (Toyota Corolla)
  • have fewer maintenance hassles
  • offer higher reliability
  • improve throughout ownership with over the air updates (most recalls, performance increases, new features, etc. are automatically updated via software without leaving your garage)
  • have better performance (the fastest production vehicles are electric and the least expensive BEVs outperform most of the ICE fleet)
  • have more useful features*
  • don't require advertising to sell the product**
(edit: not sure why the below got formatted as a quote, it isn't)

Tesla has never advertised their products. They depend upon word of mouth only. It is difficult to imagine how this one auto maker whose stock has the largest market cap of all auto makers, and whose profit margin is the highest of all auto makers (ICE and BEV) is somehow being "shoved down" anyone's throat. Particularly when all of their profits are being spent on research and development, expanding production, and streamlining their manufacturing processes.

The oil and gas industry:
  • spends a significant portion of their profits on advertising and on the lobbying of legislators (as do the legacy auto manufacturers)
  • receives more billions in annual subsidies from state and federal government than do all the sustainable energy groups combined
These facts indicate the exact opposite of your statement. They don't call the US Dollar the "Petro-Dollar" for nothing. Oil, and the industries it supports have been the most significant controlling factor of US government policy for decades.


Despite this level of influence and control over the policies and narrative that Big Oil and Big Auto wield, more and more of those shopping for and purchasing new cars are finding a better value offered by electric vehicle manufacturers. This is not a fad. Gas cars are going away. They are going away now. Here's why.

They are going away because there is an alternative that has a lower TCO, is more reliable, and provides a better ownership experience.

As of Q1 of this year the best selling (gas or electric) SUV in the US and Europe is the Tesla Model Y.


The fastest growing segment of the auto industry is the battery electric vehicle. The BEV percentage of all cars sold globally is growing exponentially, not linearly.


Battery Electric Vehicles share of global car market over time:
  • 2% share in 2018;
  • 4% share in 2020;
  • 8% share in 2021;
  • 14% share in 2022

This growing trend is doubling the BEV share of the global auto market every 1 to 2 years. At this astounding rate BEV sales will be at 50% share of new cars sold in only three or four years, and is expected to be 80% of the new vehicle market by ~2030, if not sooner.

The really crazy thing is how, back in 2013, Elon Musk outlined a plan to reach these exact goals and has been spot on with hitting those targets for ten years. This transition away from fossil fuel cars is based upon a decade old plan with an unprecedented success rate over the long haul.


The ICE vehicle manufacturers have been stagnant in their research and development for decades, riding on technology that has not taken advantage of new developments. This is why there was a "chip shortage." The chip manufacturers have significantly reduced production of old technology chips that the ICE OEMs depend upon. The chip manufacturers shut down those lines when the ICE OEMs canceled orders during COVID, and they replaced those aging lines with modern chip production facilities making modern chips for other customers. The ICE manufacturers and their supply chain were using ten+ year old tech and did not have the necessary talent to create replacement modules using current technology electronic components.


Heck, I've been waiting on Ford to deliver a Transmission Control Unit for my car since October of last year for a warranty repair on a 2015 model. They tell me that maybe this month it may finally arrive. I'm fortunate the car can be driven, else I'd have been doing without a vehicle for seven months while waiting on parts from the factory. Legacy OEMs are struggling in this new age.



Electric vehicles are becoming dominant simply because they make sense. Electric vehicles cost less over their lifetime, have 90% fewer moving parts to fail, you can fill it up at home while you sleep, and in the not too distant future they may not even have a steering wheel and will carry us to our destination autonomously. This is what drives sales of BEVs without even mentioning the climate, or the health benefits.

A similar change is happening in the production of energy. Use of solar panels, wind generation, and large scale battery storage are replacing fossil fuel power plants all over the world at a growing pace, simply because it costs less to make power this way. Getting away from the pollution is just a side benefit. Texas and California are the leading states in this transition in the US.

These are facts that are easily verified. Those who are aware of this will be in a better position to benefit than those who won't take time to verify whether there are any actual facts supporting the stories they base their decisions upon.

Hopefully you will see this more clearly as the evidence of this change stacks up around you. The numbers tell the story for anyone willing to set aside preconceived notions and rhetoric such as "gas hating portion of government" and who will give the information an honest look before dismissing it out of hand.

Thanks for taking the time. I'd rather try to share this now than look back someday wishing I had.

Let me know if I can help with more info, otherwise I'll let it be.
(end copy)
One of the problems convincing people electric cars, especially Teslas, are better is they get suspicious because the reasons are so numerous it sounds too good to be true. When you start rattling off the reasons, people start to think you are BSing them. We end up sounding like a bunch of snake oil salesmen.
 
There is so much still to go for mass adoption of EVs and for stubborn people to get around it

For example, Carwow released a short video of the new track package on Instagram. I get it that those who follow Carwow are car enthusiasts, but you have to scroll pretty far down to find one positive comment, it's one braindead take after another

Haters gonna hate, that post has 22k likes so...
 
Today could be a harbinger of good times ahead. All the things that have been spooking the market are receding. Interest rate hikes may be over, the troubled regional banks have been bought, inflation is coming down, earnings are strong.

It’s still a highly traumatized market. Any littIe thing could still set it back. But maybe, just maybe, a bull market is about to start?
 
Today could be a harbinger of good times ahead. All the things that have been spooking the market are receding. Interest rate hikes may be over, the troubled regional banks have been bought, inflation is coming down, earnings are strong.

It’s still a highly traumatized market. Any littIe thing could still set it back. But maybe, just maybe, a bull market is about to start?
Apple is basically back to ATHs. If TSLA can get there sometime next year I'll be happy enough. If it wants to start running up to Ms. Wood's target then I'll be even happier.
 
Today could be a harbinger of good times ahead. All the things that have been spooking the market are receding. Interest rate hikes may be over, the troubled regional banks have been bought, inflation is coming down, earnings are strong.

It’s still a highly traumatized market. Any littIe thing could still set it back. But maybe, just maybe, a bull market is about to start?
I'm "up" more today than any year when I was working....so yeah I hope it continues.
 
Today's market action (all bright green except for precious metals) has a lot do to with the deflation of the US dollar against other currencies. Just one example is Canadian $ is up 1.2% against the Greenback. Still nice to see TSLA up 5.5% (even if that is only a 4.3% gain for us Canadians).

This is proof that time in the Market outweighs timing the Market. No-one predicted today's jump, no-one, except of course @TrendTrader007.
 
Here is the response I got from my friend who I sent "more information about electrification" as requested.



... and my brief reply... yeah, yeah, I know :rolleyes: where is the beating a dead horse emoji?

It turned out as a fairly comprehensive tome that might be useful for others, so I'm sharing it with y'all too.

Enjoy

Thanks for this but no matter what facts you present some people just can't accept the reality of a period of rapid change.

Screenshot 2023-05-05 at 15.45.47.png