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I wonder if their definition of "Cd 0.1 level" really just means anything in the 0.1-0.199 range...which would be a bit less shocking.

On a possibly related note, I was tangentially connected to some research work many years ago that involved using thin electrodes and generating plasma to delay boundary layer separation, keeping air flow more connected on the downstream side of bodies with a spherical or rod shape. This effectively reduced the wake behind the objects, reducing drag.

I don't recall the details from that work, but doing some quick googling, I did find this article:


A quick skim says 6-9% drag reduction when applying electrodes to the top surface of a scaled model of a semi truck trailer.

I could imagine more drag reduction if electrodes were placed on the sides of the trailer as well...perhaps 20-30% total reduction.

I'm not sure if the drag savings would be bigger or smaller on a more aerodynamic shaped car...I can make hand-waving arguments either way.

Power usage seemed to be about 100 watts per meter of electrodes...not sure if that would have to scale up to reduce drag on a full size vehicle instead of a model. But, *IF* that figure holds, and you could surround the back end of a square-ish SUV with 4 meters of electrodes, and activate at highway speeds, the power consumption might be 400 watts...so the consumption would only be 400 watt hours during a 1-hour drive for a "cost" of about one mile of range per hour. But if the drag savings were 10-20%, you might "save" 5, 10, 15 or more miles of range during that hour at highway speeds, so you could come out ahead.

This doesn't break any laws of conservation of energy...you're just effectively using electronics to alter the apparent shape of the vehicle in a way. Like adding those flaps they put on the back of some big rig trailers to reduce drag...those use zero power but save energy for the truck.

This is all somewhat-informed speculation and estimation on my part...I'm an engineer, but this isn't my field. Just interesting to think about.



That almost looks like a museum display...wish I could read what look like little signs above each object. But, I think the left is a "standard" multi-part stamped underbody, and the right is the casting. Still looks a few steps behind Tesla's, though, as you mentioned.
And besides the golf ball, there are other approaches to reduce surface layer turbulence, like a plastic film inspired by shark skin:
Good for 1% drag reduction in this application.

I wonder if this could be engraved / impressed directly into cybertruck's stainless steel surface.
 
When most people say "road trip" they really mean "driving instead of flying to save money, but still trying to get there as fast as possible." So, if you're not trying to see the sights on the way, then having the car drive while you sleep effectively erases the travel time.

Driving during an overnight drive sounds like a good idea - but the last time I slept while driving was being a kid on the rear bench of my parents minivan - I can sleep in my MY in the trunk on a mattress, but sleeping during driving probably means buckled up - so sitting in a seat with seatbelts is not "erasing travel time" it's erasing good sleep imho :)
 
Would a cybertruck actually be a useful vehicle in a warzone? Logistics for the required re-charging infrastructure seem far harder to manage than that needed for Diesel based military vehicles. Would be interested to hear the case for how an EV armored vehicle would be a feasible option on the battlefield.
Difficult to imagine how electric vehicles would outmatch diesel in such a scenario. Perhaps there could be some mobile fast charger that enables better overall efficiency or has greater flexibility in fuel sources than is possible for individual vehicles.
 
Would a cybertruck actually be a useful vehicle in a warzone? Logistics for the required re-charging infrastructure seem far harder to manage than that needed for Diesel based military vehicles. Would be interested to hear the case for how an EV armored vehicle would be a feasible option on the battlefield.
I think with a little imagination it would not be so bad. Something like this: tesla mobile supercharger megapack with a 200kw generator in there too (there probably is even space on that trailer for a 200kw generator). Generator keeps the megapack topped up as the megapack in turn charges multiple CyberTrucks. Megapack can probably buffer 5 or more full charges in it maybe? Also, in those situations it might be possible to locate a 3 phase line into a commercial building and "tap in" (Like a fire truck into a water main) to avoid using up the deisel / saving it for remote operations. Yes, more complex , but in the realms of feasibility I think?
 

Toyota's press release had a lot more info than just renewed claims of solid state battery commercialization and a 1000-km range. It's amazing what I can find by actually reading the primary source instead of making jokes based on headlines and journalist publications.

So here’s what Toyota is claiming:

• Again saying solid state batteries are approaching practical application in production BEVs thanks to a “technological breakthrough” solving the durability issue. Aiming for 2027-2028 commercialization in BEVs. We'll see.

• Using a “bipolar” cell design in the future. This is an interesting concept I’ve never seen before. Basically they’re breaking away from the normal method by instead applying anode and cathode materials on opposite sides of common metal foil layers (see figure below). One obvious advantage depicted in the diagram is a reduction in cell casing material, but I don’t know enough about the tech to consider other pros and cons. Toyota touts the potential to substantially improve range, charging speed, energy density and cost for both the high-nickel and iron-phosphate chemistries. Normally, Li-ion batteries use copper foil for the anode and aluminum foil for the cathode, because each is more suitable for the particular chemical and electrical conditions of the anode and cathodes respectively. Toyota did not disclose the current collector material selection, so this remains a mystery for now, but presumably they have come up with some solution because Toyota says the Aqua (also known as Prius c) and Crown hybrid models have already been using this tech. Also, I suspect it will be more challenging to control the internal temperature of this type of cell than conventional cells because the steel containers provide the opportunity to run cooling ribbons along their walls.

I hope we’ll get analysis from The Limiting Factor with some of the battery experts like Dr. Dahn or Dr. Mung opining.

View attachment 946768

View attachment 946772

• Aerodynamic efficiency will be improved with some kind of unspecified hypersonic rocket technology for boundary layer control, developed as a spinoff application from Mitsubishi’s space systems division. Supposedly this can reduce drag coefficient majorly, with “Cd0.1 level in view”. That’s not a typo; they actually said a drag coefficient (Cd) of 0.1 might be feasible and, for context, the best on the market today are the Lucid Air and Model S at 0.21. This means Toyota is claiming they might achieve literally double the aerodynamic efficiency of the industry state of the art, and this would translate to almost double the highway cruising range (holding battery size, vehicle weight, and cross-sectional area constant for the comparison). Furthermore, Toyota says this improvement is largely independent of the shape of the vehicle, which would be crazy considering that shape is normally the main factor determining Cd and usually it matters more than everything else combined.

It is not at all clear to me how aerospace technology intended for hypersonic flow is applicable to consumer automotive vehicles experiencing incompressible subsonic flow. Hypersonic flow generally has very different physical properties than subsonic flow, especially at the speeds cars move on public highways, which is at most Mach 0.1. However, I’m not an aerodynamics expert and Toyota kept all the details secret. If Toyota and Mitsubishi engineers actually have accomplished this feat and also somehow made it manufacturable and affordable then this will be one of the greatest achievements of all time in the history of automotive technology. On the other hand, this is such an extraordinary boast without any evidence to back it up that I'm very skeptical.


• Gigacastings in the structure. The castings shown in the demo image appear quite primitive compared to Tesla’s castings.

View attachment 946781

• Plants will no longer use conveyors and instead use techniques like a “self-propelling assembly line”. Toyota intends to have the cars drive themselves with their own powertrains to move through the production system. "Sensors and control systems on the factory side communicate with wireless terminals mounted on the mass-produced vehicles to control them from the outside. We will aim to integrate the car and the production plant." An advantage will be increasing plant layout flexibility due to not having expensive equipment fixed in place. However, I don't see how this is much of an improvement over Tesla's approach with automated ground vehicles moving around the work-in-progress. One thing to note is that for this to have any meaningful impact, it will require the body-in-white to be mated with the skateboard very early in the build sequence. Toyota calls this "simplified assembly from bottom to top".

View attachment 946784

• Digital electronics will be drastically increased in their utilization in the next-gen factory. No specifics provided on what they have in mind, other than vague mentions of having more automated inspection technology.

• Through vertical integration of powertrain components in partnership with suppliers, they have shrunk the size of their "eAxle" powertrain system, which has secondary benefits of enabling increased cabin room and improved aero.

• Switching the inverters to SiC (silicon carbide). If I remember correctly, Tesla had been the only ones in the industry using SiC, but on Investor Day they said Gen 3 will be moving on to cheaper materials to save cost--I think it was just silicon. Toyota claim they and some Tier 1 suppliers have developed some improvements on SiC tech (see report for details). I'm not sure how this stacks up against Tesla's choice.


Overall, Toyota is making some big and (eventually) falsifiable claims, but I think we don't have enough information to properly evaluate their decisions and technology path yet. My first impression is that this is probably a lot of empty hype and lofty promises with overly optimistic commercialization timelines, but with some interesting novel ideas, especially the bipolar battery concept. This will be interesting to watch and I would like to know what you all think.
I'd be stunned if, after having their main R&D focus on hydrogen for the last decade, that they would have any of these ground breaking feats of engineering anywhere close to commercialisation when Tesla and the Chinese manufacturers can't compete.

You would think the founder of SpaceX would have a pretty good idea of what hypersonic airflow tricks could be applied to vehicles.

And if Toyota do have these products available they are the least entrepreneurial company on earth as they could turned any of these ideas into multi-billion dollar companies.

It's far more likely that Toyota have realised how far behind they are on the winning powertrain and have written a letter to 🎅 so investors think they have a plausible path to avoid being disrupted.
 
Toyota is scum. They have been milking their hybrids for around 20 years and have delayed any EV development on purpose. It is not only that.

Toyota has bribed politicians and media to delay any EV developments as well as green initiatives. I hope Toyota is one of the first to fail and fail bad. I'd rather have Lucid and Rivian around that anything Toyota.

Once they produce 500K+ real EV vehicles a year I might not underestimate them. For now, they are last in my EV book.

The fact that Toyota is part of the Evil Empire and a bunch of laggards doesn’t mean we shouldn’t watch them closely imo.

Their biggest problem is that they have the agility of an oil tanker but it seems they’re trying to turn the ship.

In terms of evilness I rate VW a lot higher. I don’t think I’ll ever forgive them for their emissions fraud.
 
Would a cybertruck actually be a useful vehicle in a warzone? Logistics for the required re-charging infrastructure seem far harder to manage than that needed for Diesel based military vehicles. Would be interested to hear the case for how an EV armored vehicle would be a feasible option on the battlefield.
A couple things CT would have going for us that there is no hot exhaust to show up on thermal imagers and it’s silent.
 
The first rule of this is post is "DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE"
The second rule of this is post is "DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE"
View attachment 946798
This has value here but there is no need to get me or you banned.

I don't think this comment about demographics will get me banned.....

Today, Tesla has higher sales in larger metropolitan areas. There are many reasons for this, but one is that the value proposition for an EV is higher in a large city where folks have longer commutes and less need for large pickup trucks.

So the reason Teslas are sold more to Democrats than Republicans may actually have little to do with one's politics. It could be just a correlation with where Democrats and Republicans tend to live.
 
Google Search Engine:
"Leading indicators of short squeeze for stock"
View attachment 946737

Increased buying pressure?
Maybe. Charger deals with Ford, GM and 3rd party charging networks specific to North America. However recent significant increase in TSLA has many believing a pullback is inevitable.

High short interest?
Yes,
View attachment 946739

Days to cover above 10?

No.
Not even close. May 31, 2023 shows 1 day to cover, unlikely changed from that.
View attachment 946741

RSI below 30?
No.

Not even close.
View attachment 946738

So based on a quick Google search it appears TSLA is not in a short squeeze. I believe average analysts, fund managers and retail investors are simply recognizing Tesla as a value proposition, and it took the recent endorsement of Ford and GM to show everyone that Tesla has the by far the best EV charging network. Perhaps they are now thinking that Tesla also has the best EVs.
RSI, specifically, works best as in indicator when a pattern of price stability is rapidly disrupted by rapid volume changes that are unusual. TSLA has a long history of rapid volume changes coupled with large price changes unrelated to large shifts in short interest. That is a strong signal that more of the short interest is from market maker and institutional algorithmic action.
All the traditional statistical reliability is diminished in such situations, in large part because traditional margin calls do not apply to those entities.

Obviously, opinions may vary on that point, primarily from overconfidence in transparency of market data.
 
I don't think this comment about demographics will get me banned.....

Today, Tesla has higher sales in larger metropolitan areas. There are many reasons for this, but one is that the value proposition for an EV is higher in a large city where folks have longer commutes and less need for large pickup trucks.

So the reason Teslas are sold more to Democrats than Republicans may actually have little to do with one's politics. It could be just a correlation with where Democrats and Republicans tend to live.
Those large cities also have the money. What's 50k when your house is half a million?
 

Toyota's press release had a lot more info than just renewed claims of solid state battery commercialization and a 1000-km range. It's amazing what I can find by actually reading the primary source instead of making jokes based on headlines and journalist publications.

So here’s what Toyota is claiming:

• Again saying solid state batteries are approaching practical application in production BEVs thanks to a “technological breakthrough” solving the durability issue. Aiming for 2027-2028 commercialization in BEVs. We'll see.

• Using a “bipolar” cell design in the future. This is an interesting concept I’ve never seen before. Basically they’re breaking away from the normal method by instead applying anode and cathode materials on opposite sides of common metal foil layers (see figure below). One obvious advantage depicted in the diagram is a reduction in cell casing material, but I don’t know enough about the tech to consider other pros and cons. Toyota touts the potential to substantially improve range, charging speed, energy density and cost for both the high-nickel and iron-phosphate chemistries. Normally, Li-ion batteries use copper foil for the anode and aluminum foil for the cathode, because each is more suitable for the particular chemical and electrical conditions of the anode and cathodes respectively. Toyota did not disclose the current collector material selection, so this remains a mystery for now, but presumably they have come up with some solution because Toyota says the Aqua (also known as Prius c) and Crown hybrid models have already been using this tech. Also, I suspect it will be more challenging to control the internal temperature of this type of cell than conventional cells because the steel containers provide the opportunity to run cooling ribbons along their walls.

I hope we’ll get analysis from The Limiting Factor with some of the battery experts like Dr. Dahn or Dr. Mung opining.

View attachment 946768

View attachment 946772

• Aerodynamic efficiency will be improved with some kind of unspecified hypersonic rocket technology for boundary layer control, developed as a spinoff application from Mitsubishi’s space systems division. Supposedly this can reduce drag coefficient majorly, with “Cd0.1 level in view”. That’s not a typo; they actually said a drag coefficient (Cd) of 0.1 might be feasible and, for context, the best on the market today are the Lucid Air and Model S at 0.21. This means Toyota is claiming they might achieve literally double the aerodynamic efficiency of the industry state of the art, and this would translate to almost double the highway cruising range (holding battery size, vehicle weight, and cross-sectional area constant for the comparison). Furthermore, Toyota says this improvement is largely independent of the shape of the vehicle, which would be crazy considering that shape is normally the main factor determining Cd and usually it matters more than everything else combined.

It is not at all clear to me how aerospace technology intended for hypersonic flow is applicable to consumer automotive vehicles experiencing incompressible subsonic flow. Hypersonic flow generally has very different physical properties than subsonic flow, especially at the speeds cars move on public highways, which is at most Mach 0.1. However, I’m not an aerodynamics expert and Toyota kept all the details secret. If Toyota and Mitsubishi engineers actually have accomplished this feat and also somehow made it manufacturable and affordable then this will be one of the greatest achievements of all time in the history of automotive technology. On the other hand, this is such an extraordinary boast without any evidence to back it up that I'm very skeptical.


• Gigacastings in the structure. The castings shown in the demo image appear quite primitive compared to Tesla’s castings.

View attachment 946781

• Plants will no longer use conveyors and instead use techniques like a “self-propelling assembly line”. Toyota intends to have the cars drive themselves with their own powertrains to move through the production system. "Sensors and control systems on the factory side communicate with wireless terminals mounted on the mass-produced vehicles to control them from the outside. We will aim to integrate the car and the production plant." An advantage will be increasing plant layout flexibility due to not having expensive equipment fixed in place. However, I don't see how this is much of an improvement over Tesla's approach with automated ground vehicles moving around the work-in-progress. One thing to note is that for this to have any meaningful impact, it will require the body-in-white to be mated with the skateboard very early in the build sequence. Toyota calls this "simplified assembly from bottom to top".

View attachment 946784

• Digital electronics will be drastically increased in their utilization in the next-gen factory. No specifics provided on what they have in mind, other than vague mentions of having more automated inspection technology.

• Through vertical integration of powertrain components in partnership with suppliers, they have shrunk the size of their "eAxle" powertrain system, which has secondary benefits of enabling increased cabin room and improved aero.

• Switching the inverters to SiC (silicon carbide). If I remember correctly, Tesla had been the only ones in the industry using SiC, but on Investor Day they said Gen 3 will be moving on to cheaper materials to save cost--I think it was just silicon. Toyota claim they and some Tier 1 suppliers have developed some improvements on SiC tech (see report for details). I'm not sure how this stacks up against Tesla's choice.


Overall, Toyota is making some big and (eventually) falsifiable claims, but I think we don't have enough information to properly evaluate their decisions and technology path yet. My first impression is that this is probably a lot of empty hype and lofty promises with overly optimistic commercialization timelines, but with some interesting novel ideas, especially the bipolar battery concept. This will be interesting to watch and I would like to know what you all think.
Here’s the thing. It sounds like Toyota is getting serious and that’s good. However, actually implementing all that new technology is extremely hard work and expensive. If they are truly committed to it, they have the resources to pull it off. However, what we’ve seen from them so far is only headlines and no execution.
 
Here’s the thing. It sounds like Toyota is getting serious and that’s good. However, actually implementing all that new technology is extremely hard work and expensive. If they are truly committed to it, they have the resources to pull it off. However, what we’ve seen from them so far is only headlines and no execution.
Toyota went EV after the Tokyo Olympics. It was incredibly predictable. The Olympics probably delayed the shift by a year or more.
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: replicant
David Ryan on IBD has noted in the past an “ANTS Indicator “ being an indication of institutional buying

1 20/ 25 % increase in price over 15 days

2 12 out of 15 days up in that time period

3 The daily volume in those up days being above average

Then the stock often build a base and then continues much higher . Noted on IBD live today that he thought Tesla currently had reached all three indicators and that he considered it possible that institutional buying might continue over a number of months

Past discussions on “ANTS indicators “ can be found on YouTube
Historically those matrices, using a variety of names, usually acronyms, have been reliable for measuring institutional buying of dividend bearing stocks. However many instituímos actively lend non-dividend stock because that’s the typical way to reduce carrying costs. Borrowing a dividend bearing stock is more expensive than others so speculators are less drawn to them.

So ANT-DS is a less predictive measure.

That may be a good argument to support a modest dividend for TSLA, which otherwise would just reduce the formidable financial strength.

Personally I think the best solution for the world would be to implement a short selling and options transaction tax. Even a modest one would help.
 
Would a cybertruck actually be a useful vehicle in a warzone? Logistics for the required re-charging infrastructure seem far harder to manage than that needed for Diesel based military vehicles. Would be interested to hear the case for how an EV armored vehicle would be a feasible option on the battlefield.
Both diesel and electric have their challenges. Once a base is set up, solar could be deployed to power vehicles. I would prefer to have optionality. Some diesel, some fully electric. Honestly probably more diesel, but I could see a potential advantage of having some of both.
Toyota went EV after the Tokyo Olympics. It was incredibly predictable. The Olympics probably delayed the shift by a year or more.
Toyota went EV??? That’s news to me…