Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[Krugerrand]

I think it's not necessarily just aesthetics, aerodynamics are very important to EV's, especially at highway speeds. Boxy, blunt rear ends are bad for Cd.

As @bkp_duke mentions below, the S has a liftback/hatchback, which would be interesting to see the on the 3... I think there's much greater than 0% chance of that appearing on another Tesla vehicle...

I don’t think anyone appreciates the difficulty in making that lift gate for the S, which was a LOW volume production vehicle. Years ago I explained the difficulty in making it. We’re into high volume production vehicles now. That lift gate won’t happen on any other Tesla vehicle. Ever. You can’t make a lift gate like that in high volume and achieve any semblance of efficiencies; low scrap yield, nil rework, cost reductions etc…

 

[Sunlight]

Mark my words.

Which ones particularly!?

 

[Stretch2727]

I don’t think anyone appreciates the difficulty in making that lift gate for the S, which was a LOW volume production vehicle. Years ago I explained the difficulty in making it. We’re into high volume production vehicles now. That lift gate won’t happen on any other Tesla vehicle. Ever. You can’t make a lift gate like that in high volume and achieve any semblance of efficiencies; low scrap yield, nil rework, cost reductions etc…

What? If Honda can do it with a 4 door Civic I am sure Tesla can.

2023 Civic Hatchback: Sporty Performance | Honda

The new Honda Civic Hatchback has been redesigned inside and out, with lively powertrain options, a spacious cabin and ample cargo room.

automobiles.honda.com

I too wish for a Model 3 hatchback but based on the spy photo's I don't think it is coming. I think they made the decision long ago that it would overlap too much with Model Y and gave it a trunk. Some prefer the trunk for security. A true sedan has a better structure and usually less squeaks and rattles.

 

[Krugerrand]

I love the utility of a hatchback and consider three of the four models of Tesla as being hatchbacks. (SUVs are hatchbacks in my book)

If a vehicle has a hatch on the back of the car that opens completely to the roof line it is a hatchback.
I think Franz is on board with this. The M3 is the only sedan Tesla makes, and this alone is reason enough not to make it a hatch as well. There will be more hatchbacks coming though.

A hatchback doesn't have to look like an AMC Pacer. (thank goodness)

What you’re calling a hatchback (Teslas) isn’t traditional in any sense and you should speak to the Europeans.

If everyone wants to have their own definition of a hatchback, carry on. But no such drastic change in design has ever happened with a Tesla vehicle refresh. You get a change in the nose, the butt, maybe new headlights and that’s it. You’re not getting some major body design change to go from the current style of lift gate to a hatchback.

I’ll be waiting for all you speculators to announce your mistaken speculation when the refresh 3 comes out and then cease to speculate in the future.

 

[Krugerrand]

Which ones particularly!?

All of them. But in context, refreshed Model 3 isn’t getting a hatchback.

 

[SOULPEDL]

OK, I'm in, and I'll raise you 5.

View attachment 960160

OT...
(Edit: I take that back. It's clearly more On Topic than hatchbacks. Just trying to have some Fri fun, but seems there's a mood today. Coffee is no longer on the table.)

Got a pair of 2's, thank you. Next week's coffee is on me.

 

[Krugerrand]

I chose a MY for my wife over an M3 primarily because it was a hatchback. The M3 trunk is a major pain if you live in snowy areas. If you have even a few inches of snow on the car and open the trunk lid, you end up with a trunk full of snow. Doesn't happen with a hatchback like my MS.
I would love to have an M3 hatchback.

I own a Model 3 and live on a mountain. I don’t have an issue. Could be that I employee common sense and a snow brush. ‍

 

[Krugerrand]

What? If Honda can do it with a 4 door Civic I am sure Tesla can.

Keep context pls and tks. This isn’t a discussion about ‘can’ Tesla make a hatchback. It’s a discussion if they ‘will’ with the refreshed Model 3. No. They will not.

It’s getting a bit funny, not much but a little, that we’ve got people complaining Tesla doesn’t make a hatchback, others saying the S is a hatchback, others that the Y isa hatchback, and still others that all Tesla vehicles are hatchbacks.

Let me know when you all can make up your minds what constitutes a hatchback and which, if any, of Tesla’s vehicles are or are not a hatchback.

 

[GhostSkater]

The new V4 Supercharger pedestals are rated for 1000v/1000A:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1684651760709767168

Best post to wake up to, shame there isn't a power rating since just because it does 1000 A and 1000 V doesn't mean it does 1 MW, it's possible but not a given

For example, some CCS chargers can do 1000 V and 500 A, but none in public can do 500 kW, or 1000 V and 500 A simultaneously

Best test someone can is to plug a Rimac Nevera on it since it's rated to 500 kW charging, no idea if it's enabled on customer cars yet, anyone has one laying around? Or a really good friend that we can borrow it from?

 

[uscbucsfan]

Keep context pls and tks. This isn’t a discussion about ‘can’ Tesla make a hatchback. It’s a discussion if they ‘will’ with the refreshed Model 3. No. They will not.

It’s getting a bit funny, not much but a little, that we’ve got people complaining Tesla doesn’t make a hatchback, others saying the S is a hatchback, others that the Y isa hatchback, and still others that all Tesla vehicles are hatchbacks.

Let me know when you all can make up your minds what constitutes a hatchback and which, if any, of Tesla’s vehicles are or are not a hatchback.

In the US, the S and Y are categorized as hatchbacks by multiple entities including insurace companies. People want the same on the m3.

Are you or others confused when people call an S or Y a hatchback, even if it doesn't fit a strict personal opinion of the term?

 

[insaneoctane]

Interesting opinions...
I own both MY and M3
M3 is sportier and more fun to drive
MY has more room and is more practical
Both have Tesla magic
People pick accordingly....

 

[JimS]

The M3 trunk is a major pain if you live in snowy areas. If you have even a few inches of snow on the car and open the trunk lid, you end up with a trunk full of snow.

Like this?

I don’t live in a snowy area so this is not a problem for me. This was an early storm at the Grand Canyon a couple years ago. Of course, if I had had any common sense I would have brushed it off before opening the trunk! (Meow)

 

[GhostSkater]

I didn't realize the v3 pedestals were capable of 900kW... wow.

It can't

What ican do 900 kW is the cabinet as a whole, as far as I understand this is how the Supercharger V3 architecture works internally

AC Main -> AC/DC Converter - > DC Bus -> DC/DC converter -> Pedestal

AC/DC Converter can do 350 kW AC input

DC/DC Converter can do 250 kW, maybe 324 kW with the rumored upgrade that never materialized, there is 4x 250 kW DC/DC converters per cabinet

The DC Bus is linked between multiple cabinets, and each cabinet can take a input of up to 575 kW DC

Assuming there is two cabinets with spare capacity besides a center one, the maximum power a single cabinet can output to vehicles simultaneously is a bit less than 925 kW, or 231 kW simultaneously

But if all cars plug at the same time at low state of charge in every stall and there is no Megapack on site, the maximum power per car is just 87 kW

 

[SOULPEDL]

I chose a MY for my wife over an M3 primarily because it was a hatchback. The M3 trunk is a major pain if you live in snowy areas. If you have even a few inches of snow on the car and open the trunk lid, you end up with a trunk full of snow. Doesn't happen with a hatchback like my MS.
I would love to have an M3 hatchback.

We don't have this problem... in Phoenix Az. At least the >110 deg fever is breaking for a bit next week.

 

[jerry33]

Despite lack of interest in such vehicles in North America, except perhaps Mexico and some parts of Canada most of the rest of the world would eagerly receive such vehicles.

Vancouver is the only place in Canada where small cars are the norm.

 

[EQC_]

Data visualization malpractice to omit the Y-axis labels and omit the minimum possible value on this visualization, but from the context of the rest of the survey, it runs from 5 (agree) to 1 (disagree):

View attachment 960323

So in other words, he went from an 88% approval rating among a small group of early adopters, to 59.4% approval rating among a much larger group of Tesla owners. I think that's likely to have happened regardless of what Elon did.

As cab noted: Do they run similar surveys for other manufacturers, and if so, do they have a selection for "I have no idea who the CEO is and it has never crossed my mind to care"?

Honestly, this result is less a function of what Elon says/does, and more a function of how the media has decided to draw clicks:

• Cover every questionable Elon tweet and make sure your audience has a list of them memorized. Yes, Elon did the tweeting and provided that ammunition for his critics, but the coverage and ever-lasting repetition is ridiculous.
• Report every "failure" at one of Elon's companies. Point out the old ways of doing things, which have evolved minimally over the last 50 years, and say that somehow proves that big goals or new methods are hopeless mistakes. Completely ignore the rapid innovation and eventual success that comes from the "fail fast"/"test early and often"/"move fast and break things" strategies, and has been frequently proven at Tesla and SpaceX.

Basically: ignore the ways SpaceX and Tesla have put laggard companies to shame, and instead feed the hate with frequent reports on tweets. That's what's really important for our audience! Oh, and as cliff harris noted, of course convince everybody to be personally offended that Elon overpaid for Twitter and then made strange changes.

Then again...as long as the media keeps focusing on the side-shows, at least a few more people will have a chance to "buy low" before Tesla's ever-growing success hits that tipping point where it can't be ignored.

 

[EfficientWatts]

So basically it’s okay to open one’s mouth even if one doesn’t actually know what they’re talking about. It just adds to the adventure for everyone else needing to figure out if it’s truth or crap.

What did Elon do to you personally?

Ah, about opening your mouth without knowing what you're talking about (looking at Elon again). But sometimes Elon gets things right; I won't deny and not give credit where is it appropriate. Same with green, I think we can agree that he has hits and misses, but my view on him is that he has knowledge and gotten a number of things right.

As I stated, and which people keep missing, is that sometimes we need to separate the two and look to the facts at times. Apparently people are so willing to do that for Elon (to the point its scary) but oh no, can't have anyone else have emotional outbursts when trying to criticize Elon as that seems to somehow magically invalidate everything they're saying.

It's so hilarious to assume what and who I am. I still drive a Tesla, and I still appreciate the company, but I have big concerns about Elon. Does that mean I ignore everything that Elon does and invalidate all his accomplishments? No, and I still like the company.

 

[EQC_]

...

People might have been able to claim a cult of personality some years ago, but Tesla is too mainstream now.

Correction: "People might have been able to *reasonably* claim a cult of personality some years ago, but Tesla is too mainstream now.

Check the comments under Tesla News/Blog/etc. stories. I really enjoy the sites Jalopnik and Arstechnica, but the authors and the commentors there still really buy into the cult/fanboy narrative and are clearly biased against Tesla, Elon, and often even SpaceX. There are way more commenters saying they're "here before the weird Tesla nerds" than there are neutral or pro Tesla/Elon comments...and anybody that comments with logic or points out factual errors in the article is attacked. In a way, there's an anti-personality-cult that is much bigger than the supposed personality cult, and they don't seem to realize it.

 

[bkp_duke]

Seen any recent polling of interest in EVs. One party dominates in interest and it isnt the one you refer to.

Half the story. While one party historically has dominated interest, the other party is showing increased rates of adoption compared to historical norms.

EVs are winning over largely conservative areas as buyers look to save money

At least Democrats and Republicans are beginning to agree on one thing – EVs can save you money (and the...

electrek.co

Helps considerably that those red states are pulling in the majority of the battery+EV jobs now, not the blue states.

 

[GhostSkater]

Interesting video showing the Nevera pack and then comparing with Tesla, pretty impressive what Tesla can do with it's magic