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This was on the Op-Ed page. It was his opinion, not endorsed by the NYT.
The comment I want to make is that viewing TSLA from August 2015 perspective there were countless reasons to be deeply skeptical about Tesla success. Even that positive position fo Adam Jonas at the time was based, as usually for him, on speculative future rather than proven success. factually, almost none fo the analysts actually ever have understood the Tesla strengths in manufacturing, including logistics, coupled with direct distribution. Those durable advantages were beginning to be apparent then, but not so obvious as they've been since 2020 or so. Even Superchargers were not yet proliferating and the incompetent NA CCS version was barely reaching conformation.

Op-Ed though it was, that pretty much reflected 2015 views. All those negatives seemed formidable.
Even though I personally made bets on TSLA back then I regarded that as a step beyond Angel investing, but not anything like low risk. All of us should recall that only in 2019 did the Model 3 reach enough scale to be combined with Superchargers to be a clear success.

Personally I make this post simply because the FUD and entrenched Luddite-style opposition was not even beginning until TSLA success became obvious. Even though TSLA had profit posted for the first quarter of 21013:
...only in 2020 did the real potential become crystal clear in accounting terms:
statistic_id272130_teslas-net-income-2014-2022.pdf
When viewed later than 2020, in my view anyway, the strengths of Tesla had become obvious and the lack of sound competitive response was also obvious, including Superchargers, logistics and business model.
Then the competitors and other Luddites realized they had little chance to beat Tesla fairly so began serious opposition. It really was at that time that, again in my opinion, market makers and others saw enough volume and FUD that they could make large fortunes with market manipulation, facilitated in large part by the Madoff rule and other quite legal devices.

In our own threads such as these two:
Papafox's Daily TSLA Trading Charts
Selling TSLA Options - Be the House
...among others we can see how particularly disciplined retain traders can profit form all this, but...doing so successfully requires very serious dedication and extensive analysis. Those are not a safe place for ordinary mortals. remember that even Nobel Prize winners have lost everything when they have some hubris interfering.

Otherwise when we seriously look at the 2024 outlook it seems almost a certainty that Tesla Energy, specifically PowerPacks and new residential solar+storage+grid services projects will continue their upward and very profitable trajectory. The services (e.g. Superchargers, Premium Connectivity, storage services including AutoBidder and installed storage services) will certainly be material in aggregate even if they are not aggregated for financial reporting. The ramp of Cybertruck will be contributing but nobody much is realizing just how consequential Model 3 Highland already is and what, even more Model Y Juniper will be.

All those things do not necessarily suggest that auto sales will be above expectations nor that necessarily earning will rise rapidly. What they do demonstrate with no doubt is that 2025 will be huge.

Finally, Optimus, Dojo, FSD and the Texas/Mexico and other production of the new smaller vehicles will probably become apparent in 2024 but deliver during 2025.

The world may not see 2024 as a TSLA 'home run'. It will be more like the Chinese approach to market development. In short, build the infrastructure and then let the world see.
 
Zaddy's Year In Review

A year ago I joined I finally started contributing to this forum as long term bull who was realizing people were ignoring short term signals of lower earnings.

I earned many, many disagrees on posts like this pointing out how earnings would be much lower in 2023 than people were expecting.


Earnings for 2023 are going to end up around $3. Much lower than people were expecting a year ago.

The idea that COGs were going to reduce in line with price cuts was a joke a year ago and I hope people have finally accepted that reality.

ASPs have been cut further and for longer than even I was expecting.

I was also hoping Tesla Energy growth would be higher than it was - but still margins are looking promising.

Given all this, the stock performance has been outstanding.


What To Expect in 2024

Unfortunately, its still possible further price cuts are needed in 2024.

Reason #1: Used Tesla car prices have started declining again after flatlining in November

GCd8GembMAAVrXZ.jpeg


Reason #2: Even with the Model 3 tax credit going away (allegedly), Tesla has been cutting inventory prices on both Model Y and 3. You would think the EV credit ending would stimulate demand for Model 3, but nope.

Reason #3. No tax credit for Model 3 in 2024. If true, this is a killer for Model 3 margins. People who were buying the cheaper Model 3s this year won't have anything to buy in their price target. Model Y's will certainly be preferred. If Tesla can produce more Model Y's that would be great, but model 3 production lines will loose economies of scale.

So for right now, I certainly expect automotive Q1 2024 earnings to be even worse than Q4 (which could be worse than Q3).

Automotive earnings declining again and again.... Not good.

(btw please don't lazily claim I'm a bear because I'm pointing out very relevant information, do better).

Model 3 highland refresh should boost demand a bit, but I don't think it overcomes a $7500 loss in credit for consumers. No proof COGs are dramatically reduced in highland.

Given Elon's comments about V12 performance in a somewhat obvious occurrence (heavy precipitation), it is nowhere near robotaxi level. Advanced L2 will be delivered in 2024 but that's not enough to boost margins signficantly.

Positives for 2nd half of 2024

I still think margins have to hit a minimum Q1 or Q2 in 2024. Interest rates steadying and lowering a bit should help some with this.

Energy revenue will double quarterly and profits may contribute $0.3 in a quarter.

Cybertruck at volume production in Q3 or Q4 could provide $0.25 in a quarter.

I think Bot will produce revenue (or reduced costs) for Tesla before robotaxis - further demonstration of it's useful capabilities in 2024 may allow institutions to model it in future growth.

I do expect in a year from now for quarterly earnings to be back over $1 thus high growth from what will come out of this pathetic 2023 Q4.

A forward PE ratio of 60 on 2025 earnings (say $5 - $6) could bring $300 to $350 before end of next year. But this will happen when the market realizes the positives I've laid out will happen. I'm not seeing that right now nor after Q4 earnings for sure. Maybe Q1 or more likely Q2 earnings.

So my stock predictions are:

On top of a macro correction in next 2 months pushing it down with everything else (after big boost from FOMC meetings), Tesla will correct down after Q1 earnings. Maybe get as low as $180 to $190 (just looking at 6 month support lines).

It will then go back up to mid $200s (like $240), and oscillate around there until market finally realizes changes in future earnings and it moves out of the channel upwards.

I predict it will break $300 in the summer of 2024.
 
Zaddy's Year In Review

A year ago I joined I finally started contributing to this forum as long term bull who was realizing people were ignoring short term signals of lower earnings.

I earned many, many disagrees on posts like this pointing out how earnings would be much lower in 2023 than people were expecting.


Earnings for 2023 are going to end up around $3. Much lower than people were expecting a year ago.

The idea that COGs were going to reduce in line with price cuts was a joke a year ago and I hope people have finally accepted that reality.

ASPs have been cut further and for longer than even I was expecting.

I was also hoping Tesla Energy growth would be higher than it was - but still margins are looking promising.

Given all this, the stock performance has been outstanding.


What To Expect in 2024

Unfortunately, its still possible further price cuts are needed in 2024.

Reason #1: Used Tesla car prices have started declining again after flatlining in November

View attachment 1004315

Reason #2: Even with the Model 3 tax credit going away (allegedly), Tesla has been cutting inventory prices on both Model Y and 3. You would think the EV credit ending would stimulate demand for Model 3, but nope.

Reason #3. No tax credit for Model 3 in 2024. If true, this is a killer for Model 3 margins. People who were buying the cheaper Model 3s this year won't have anything to buy in their price target. Model Y's will certainly be preferred. If Tesla can produce more Model Y's that would be great, but model 3 production lines will loose economies of scale.

So for right now, I certainly expect automotive Q1 2024 earnings to be even worse than Q4 (which could be worse than Q3).

Automotive earnings declining again and again.... Not good.

(btw please don't lazily claim I'm a bear because I'm pointing out very relevant information, do better).

Model 3 highland refresh should boost demand a bit, but I don't think it overcomes a $7500 loss in credit for consumers. No proof COGs are dramatically reduced in highland.

Given Elon's comments about V12 performance in a somewhat obvious occurrence (heavy precipitation), it is nowhere near robotaxi level. Advanced L2 will be delivered in 2024 but that's not enough to boost margins signficantly.

Positives for 2nd half of 2024

I still think margins have to hit a minimum Q1 or Q2 in 2024. Interest rates steadying and lowering a bit should help some with this.

Energy revenue will double quarterly and profits may contribute $0.3 in a quarter.

Cybertruck at volume production in Q3 or Q4 could provide $0.25 in a quarter.

I think Bot will produce revenue (or reduced costs) for Tesla before robotaxis - further demonstration of it's useful capabilities in 2024 may allow institutions to model it in future growth.

I do expect in a year from now for quarterly earnings to be back over $1 thus high growth from what will come out of this pathetic 2023 Q4.

A forward PE ratio of 60 on 2025 earnings (say $5 - $6) could bring $300 to $350 before end of next year. But this will happen when the market realizes the positives I've laid out will happen. I'm not seeing that right now nor after Q4 earnings for sure. Maybe Q1 or more likely Q2 earnings.

So my stock predictions are:

On top of a macro correction in next 2 months pushing it down with everything else (after big boost from FOMC meetings), Tesla will correct down after Q1 earnings. Maybe get as low as $180 to $190 (just looking at 6 month support lines).

It will then go back up to mid $200s (like $240), and oscillate around there until market finally realizes changes in future earnings and it moves out of the channel upwards.

I predict it will break $300 in the summer of 2024.
Fair commentary and outlook.
I think one huge event you are missing is the potential for a Model 2 (call it what you want) reveal in 2024. If we see this, it won't matter what eps is for Q3 or Q4, analysts may adjust their valuation models bringing price target upgrades.
I don't know if we will see the reveal in 2024 but I feel pretty certain that the the time from reveal to delivery will be short. I think the model Y had 10 months between reveal date and delivery date. I would not be surprised to see a 6 month time frame for the model 2.
 
Quick cross post to let folks know to tag me in the FUD thread if they want something on X to get a Community Note

2024 is going to be the biggest FUD year on record IMO.

 
...Guesstimate of USA timeline:

Size of dev team:
1/10 equals small
10/10 equals huge

  • Jan 24
    • CT - 7/10 (first customer deliveries)
    • Highland 2/10
    • Juniper 1/10
    • Bot 2/10
    • M2 1/10
    • Total - 13
  • Apr 24
    • CT - 5/10
    • Highland 5/10 (first USA customer deliveries)
    • Juniper 1/10
    • Bot 3/10
    • M2 1/10
    • Total - 15
  • Jul 24
    • CT - 3/10
    • Highland 5/10
    • Juniper 2/10 (China ramp only)
    • Bot 4/10
    • M2 3/10
    • Total - 17
  • Oct 24
    • CT - 2/10
    • Highland 4/10
    • Juniper 3/10
    • Bot 5/10
    • M2 5/10
    • Total - 16
  • Jan 25
    • CT - 2/10
    • Highland 3/10
    • Juniper 4/10 (first customer deliveries)
    • Bot 5/10
    • M2 7/10
    • Total - 23
  • Apr 25
    • CT - 1/10
    • Highland 1/10
    • Juniper 4/10
    • Bot 5/10
    • M2 10/10 (first customer deliveries)
    • Total - 24
  • Jul 25
    • CT - 1/10
    • Highland 1/10
    • Juniper 2/10
    • Bot 7/10
    • M2 10/10
    • Total - 21
As a data nerd too, I love this, @Buckminster , thanks.

Comments:
  1. This is exclusive of Energy and AI / Dojo ...why?
  2. Why "Dev" team only? Surely Tesla's manufacturing / production teams are relevant? That's why Elon has them sit next to each other.
  3. Is this US / NA only? Or whole world? I think the chart will vary globally (e.g. China's done on Highland), and also there will be other projects globally to allocate to - namely construction of one (Mexico), two (India), or more Gigafactories.
  4. Your totals are wrong (see 2.)
  5. I absorb info much better visually. This is what you've forecast:
1703960101505.png


Hope this helps.

Now - what do others think of the balancing?

Happy New Year's Eve's Eve!
 
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Forgive if already posted. I found this modeling and conjecture between Herbert and James very thought provoking
If the price went to $20,000, they would have a problem, along the way, of employees deciding they had enough money to never work another day in their life, and "call in rich" one day. But if done smoothly, those quitting because they have too much money, would hopefully be replaced by those who would also like to be able to not show up for work and "call in rich". Heck, I'd have enough money to share with my adult kids so that they could also decide if they wanted to change activities, and pick a career or pursuit that was had no dependency on generating income.
 
Zaddy's Year In Review

A year ago I joined I finally started contributing to this forum as long term bull who was realizing people were ignoring short term signals of lower earnings.

I earned many, many disagrees on posts like this pointing out how earnings would be much lower in 2023 than people were expecting.


Earnings for 2023 are going to end up around $3. Much lower than people were expecting a year ago.

The idea that COGs were going to reduce in line with price cuts was a joke a year ago and I hope people have finally accepted that reality.

ASPs have been cut further and for longer than even I was expecting.

I was also hoping Tesla Energy growth would be higher than it was - but still margins are looking promising.

Given all this, the stock performance has been outstanding.


What To Expect in 2024

Unfortunately, its still possible further price cuts are needed in 2024.

Reason #1: Used Tesla car prices have started declining again after flatlining in November

View attachment 1004315

Reason #2: Even with the Model 3 tax credit going away (allegedly), Tesla has been cutting inventory prices on both Model Y and 3. You would think the EV credit ending would stimulate demand for Model 3, but nope.

Reason #3. No tax credit for Model 3 in 2024. If true, this is a killer for Model 3 margins. People who were buying the cheaper Model 3s this year won't have anything to buy in their price target. Model Y's will certainly be preferred. If Tesla can produce more Model Y's that would be great, but model 3 production lines will loose economies of scale.

So for right now, I certainly expect automotive Q1 2024 earnings to be even worse than Q4 (which could be worse than Q3).

Automotive earnings declining again and again.... Not good.

(btw please don't lazily claim I'm a bear because I'm pointing out very relevant information, do better).

Model 3 highland refresh should boost demand a bit, but I don't think it overcomes a $7500 loss in credit for consumers. No proof COGs are dramatically reduced in highland.

Given Elon's comments about V12 performance in a somewhat obvious occurrence (heavy precipitation), it is nowhere near robotaxi level. Advanced L2 will be delivered in 2024 but that's not enough to boost margins signficantly.

Positives for 2nd half of 2024

I still think margins have to hit a minimum Q1 or Q2 in 2024. Interest rates steadying and lowering a bit should help some with this.

Energy revenue will double quarterly and profits may contribute $0.3 in a quarter.

Cybertruck at volume production in Q3 or Q4 could provide $0.25 in a quarter.

I think Bot will produce revenue (or reduced costs) for Tesla before robotaxis - further demonstration of it's useful capabilities in 2024 may allow institutions to model it in future growth.

I do expect in a year from now for quarterly earnings to be back over $1 thus high growth from what will come out of this pathetic 2023 Q4.

A forward PE ratio of 60 on 2025 earnings (say $5 - $6) could bring $300 to $350 before end of next year. But this will happen when the market realizes the positives I've laid out will happen. I'm not seeing that right now nor after Q4 earnings for sure. Maybe Q1 or more likely Q2 earnings.

So my stock predictions are:

On top of a macro correction in next 2 months pushing it down with everything else (after big boost from FOMC meetings), Tesla will correct down after Q1 earnings. Maybe get as low as $180 to $190 (just looking at 6 month support lines).

It will then go back up to mid $200s (like $240), and oscillate around there until market finally realizes changes in future earnings and it moves out of the channel upwards.

I predict it will break $300 in the summer of 2024.
Nice post.

I do think that the point of sale tax credit on Model Y will more than make up for the loss of the credit on Model 3. Austin has a lot of extra capacity for producing Model Y. I expect a huge increase in US sales of Model Y.

Robotaxi probably won't get deployed at scale in 2024. But I expect that it is very possible that the technology will be proven well enough to justify a $500 SP in 2024. I expect that this will be the year when the market finally figures out that robotaxi is around the corner.
 
If the price went to $20,000, they would have a problem, along the way, of employees deciding they had enough money to never work another day in their life, and "call in rich" one day. But if done smoothly, those quitting because they have too much money, would hopefully be replaced by those who would also like to be able to not show up for work and "call in rich". Heck, I'd have enough money to share with my adult kids so that they could also decide if they wanted to change activities, and pick a career or pursuit that was had no dependency on generating income.

at $20,000 a share I don't even know what I'd do with that money. I'd certainly "call in rich" but I'm not sure if anything would change for me between $5,000 a share and 20,000 a share. I could call in rich either way.
 
If the price went to $20,000, they would have a problem, along the way, of employees deciding they had enough money to never work another day in their life, and "call in rich" one day. But if done smoothly, those quitting because they have too much money, would hopefully be replaced by those who would also like to be able to not show up for work and "call in rich". Heck, I'd have enough money to share with my adult kids so that they could also decide if they wanted to change activities, and pick a career or pursuit that was had no dependency on generating income.
That is certainly a risk. However it suggests that people simply stop when they deem themselves to have enough money. Some do. Many more continue working at the same efforts that made them wealthy.

During my career I knew many people, including me, who had made enough to eliminate financial gain as the primary motivation for doing a job. Without a doubt many people not in such situations imagine they’d quit. We even have a “Teslanaire retirement thread”.

Certainly people in such situations demand and expect high job satisfaction more than do less wealthy workers. OTOH, even they often leave in frustration if they don’t feel productive.

Tesla burnout is a more serious problem.
 
If the price went to $20,000, they would have a problem

Elon is unique. But not that unique. He is among the worlds richest. And keep working crazy hours. Many other people want to keep working regardless of wallet thickness too because it is what we love to do.

Tesla is one of the worlds most desirable places to work. Recruitment would not be an issue.

It $20,000 is connected to Tesla earnings then Tesla would be able to raise the pay of key figures a lot.

Eventually Optimus would be able to do a lot of the physical work. Wages saved here could be used to beef up wages of key personel if needs must.
 
As has been reported in this thread and any number of other locations, and as Your Moderator personally has been told by senior Tesla sales personnel that a CT Reservation Number provides zero information as to when a Ready To Order notification will occur, AND in that in any case it is so microscopically germane to the topics of this thread -

No More posts regarding Reservation Numbers.
 
Wisdom Lines's cargo ship Genius Star XI reported a fire at 0440 on Dec. 28 when 225 miles off Dutch Harbor AK. Outbound from Thailand, Singapore then Vietnam, it reports it is carrying "800 tons of lithium batteries." First Hold #1, then Hold #2 on fire.

Ship reports it has been using its CO2 suppression system. Is my understanding correct that CO2 is ineffective against lithium combustion?

Link here:

 
Energy deployments in 2022 were less than 7GWh. In 2023 this will have more than doubled to around 16GWh. The story, of course, is in the profitability: Quarterly energy gross profits nearly 4x'ed from Q3 2022 to Q3 2023, on a bit over doubling revenue between the same time periods.

Tesla-Energy-Storage-Deployment-2015_2022.jpg

Screenshot_20231230_155143_YouTube.jpg


Lathrop is now making the final push to 40 GWh capacity production in 2024 (and reportedly expanding to 80GWh capacity sometime thereafter), ensuring deployments and revenue to again double in 2024. Margins will continue to improve sequentially long after the ramp as profitability lags deployment of the Megapacks.

It will have taken Lathrop from Q3 2021 groundbreaking to 2 years to reach just under HALF capacity (16GWh-ish), and maybe a further 2-3 quarters to fully ramp. We should not expect Shanghai Megapactory to take as long to ramp to full capacity, maybe mid to late 2025. By this time it is also likely Lathrop ought to be ramping to 80GWh as the expansion is already under construction as reported by Bradford Ferguson.

It is easy to imaging another doubling in Energy deployment from 2024 to 2025, 30GWh to over 60GWh annualized. Even at just 60GWh deployed, this equates to estimated $30B in in revenue at current Megapack prices; margins between 20-40% yielding profit of $6-12B in 2025. If margins are over 30% on 60GWh, Tesla Energy in 2025 would surpass the profits of all of Tesla Auto (~1.8M vehicles sold) in 2023. Stated otherwise, just 15,000 Megapacks would surpass the profit of 1.8M vehicles -OR- 1.5 Megapactories are more prfitable than 4 Automotive Gigafactories. The case can be made that Energy contribute $3EPS in 2025.

In 2026, both Megapactories should be well on their way to churning out 120GWh of their combined installed capacity, maximizing profitability at large economies of scale.
 
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Wisdom Lines's cargo ship Genius Star XI reported a fire at 0440 on Dec. 28 when 225 miles off Dutch Harbor AK. Outbound from Thailand, Singapore then Vietnam, it reports it is carrying "800 tons of lithium batteries." First Hold #1, then Hold #2 on fire.

Ship reports it has been using its CO2 suppression system. Is my understanding correct that CO2 is ineffective against lithium combustion?

Link here:

A little digging reveals that the cathodes of these batteries contain significant amounts of oxygen and the electrolyte itself is flammable. What this means: No external atmospheric oxygen is required for the fire to start and keep on running. When one thinks about that a bit, that's a lot why gunpowder works. Or dynamite: Both the oxidizer and the fuel are in one convenient package.

My old Navy training says fires involve fuel, oxidizer, and heat. Get rid of any of the three and the fire stops. But this is why airlines keep buckets of sand handy on airplanes for the occasional cell phone fire: One can put the phone in the sand and bury it. That doesn't actually stop the fire, of course: It just means that heating up a bunch of sand that can't catch on fire is a lot less damaging than setting fire to flammable stuff inside the airplane, not to mention containing the fumes that would otherwise poison people.

I imagine that dumping loads of water on a Lithium battery might cool it down to the point where it's not burning.. but if the electrolyte/cathode are still in contact, this might not work all that well.

CO2 works very well when one is attempting to exclude the oxygen in the air from the fuel. And, yeah, if there is O2-laden air present, it's going to make the flammable gases ejected under heat combust, too. So, filling up a hold with CO2 is probably going to help, but it's not going to cure things.

Finally: There's warnings that putting water on these kinds of fires doesn't necessarily help. Lithium, in general, is reactive enough so that when exposed to water it's perfectly happy ripping oxygen atoms off of water and continuing to burn. Think: Videos of magnesium burning under water. Or what happens when pure metallic sodium is exposed to water.

Everything above is a tyro's approach from first principles, not from a person involved in fighting real fires. I'd say the Coast Guard (which is full of those kinds of people with serious expertise on ships) and the crew have a nasty problem to solve.

I dunno.. flooding the hold to the brim?
 
God's not here, we have to make up our own minds. Antics? As told by the bought-and-paid-for-in-full Media? You really haven't noticed the massive PR campaign conducted against Musk companies? Fish & Wildlife much? Rural Starlink? IRA bait'n'switch? Killer bloody ROBOTS?!

And you still haven't decided who's right and who's lying about blunt-smoking, pedo-guy, misogynist, anti-semite tax-evader alien Musk? You clearly aren't groking the gravity of the Mission, and why Elon is on his horse.

It doesn't sound like you even believe there is a curtain, never mind looking for who's behind it.
Not hard to mount any kind of campaign when you do/say tons of really strange things. You’re right I am sure of what I see. But I do love the company. I wonder just how far he’s going to have to go to get those die hard ignor all evidence fan boys.

Geeze i thought Jobs was an arrogant idiot but I never suspected bigotry. I don’t believe everything I hear but I do have eyes. It’s what I’ve seen that concerns me. Fanboys can spin his bad actions, words as nothing but it doesn’t change what he says. Funny though, there was a time when folks would have called me a fanboy.

We’ve made good $ but I struggle with just letting what had been an otherwise great investment go… as we flounder around $250 for months.