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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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I know this is the investment thread, and we want Tesla to crush it for the stock price.

But, I am hopeful that other EV companies will make it... Rivian has a seemingly compelling product (and product plans), but are struggling with manufacturing costs and volume. It would be great if they, or a competitor, could get that under control and we'd have another thriving company all-in on EV's...
I am unable to forgive Rivian their Tesla slights, just as I am unable to forgive Lucid and Adidas and Coke and GM and Ford and so on.

I logically understand the whole concept of competition is good, variety is nice, and more companies are needed to accelerate the transition. Emotionally, I’m a long way from your desired result.
 
Absolutely no way Ford or GM make an EV truck that doesn’t look exactly like their current truck lines.

And while the Rivian is aesthetically closer, it’s not an F-series or a Silverado. Both companies would absolutely not keep any Rivian stying inside or out.

Additionally, Ford literally proved they can’t make an EV pickup at profit. Not even close. So, you say just put the Rivian tech into the Lightning and voila! Profit!? Not how it works, besides the fact nobody yet knows exactly why Rivian can’t make a profit. It may in part be due to their tech.

And GM hasn’t produced their electric Silverado yet. But I wouldn’t hold your breath it’ll be a success anymore than the Lightning with or without Rivian tech.
Clearly they are inept, and Rivian might have a viable product if manufactured on scale,
That would be the illusion.
 
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I am unable to forgive Rivian their Tesla slights, just as I am unable to forgive Lucid and Adidas and Coke and GM and Ford and so on.

I logically understand the whole concept of competition is good, variety is nice, and more companies are needed to accelerate the transition. Emotionally, I’m a long way from your desired result.

When assessing an investment, I like to look first at 3 things:

1. Is the market the company is in growing?
2. Is that company executing and aligned on the mission of that growing market?
3. Is that company consistently executing *well* towards the mission of that growing market?

I'm more growth/momentum focused than most due to my background and learnings in life. Rivian seems like a good momentum investment now...without #3 but way better than the other competitors in the space not named Tesla. If they succeed, Wall Street is going to have to increase the total realized TAM for the EV market and slap it on to TSLA's potential TAM. That's good for TSLA.
 
what we need is for the grown ups at Tesla to be in charge of the Model 2 design. Another weird mobile like the X or the CT would be a disaster.

If the CT was targeted at F-150 buyers, like the 3 & Y were targeted at traditional sedan and CUV buyers, it would have been the next significant leg of growth.

Now we have to wait for late 2025 / 2026.
Although I have some sympathy with the view, Elon did say before CT reveal that if other people (not just him) didn't like the CT they would build a conventional looking one as well. The thing is, based not just on the (v cheap) pre-order count, but also on the recent reviews, and popularity with the A-lisy trendsetters, it does actually look like the CT is going to be super popular.
If Tesla sell 500,000 CTs over the product lifetime, then I think it would be hard to not accept it as a success, and that does look pretty likely. Lets not forget this is the most expensive the CT will be, its the worst its specs will be, its the worst its software and featureset will be. We all know how Tesla improves things.

I do agree that model 2 needs global appeal, and wide appeal, and thus a conventional(ish) design would be preferable. But between Semi, CT and continuing 3/Y, I don't think we have to worry too much for quite a while about Tesla finding customers.

I am hoping Tesla allows for some leaks of the model 2 design. They would benefit from feedback from the average joe, just in case they have gone a bit too adventurous :D.
 
what we need is for the grown ups at Tesla to be in charge of the Model 2 design. Another weird mobile like the X or the CT would be a disaster.

If the CT was targeted at F-150 buyers, like the 3 & Y were targeted at traditional sedan and CUV buyers, it would have been the next significant leg of growth.

Now we have to wait for late 2025 / 2026.
The people who brought us the X and the CT also brought us unanimous Motor Trend car of the year Model S, the very successful Model 3 and the best selling vehicle of any kind in 2023, Model Y. No OEM has ever produced a hit with every vehicle they’ve brought to market.

You have no idea what would have happened with a vehicle more to your liking anymore than we yet know what the final result will be for the CT.

Stop pretending you know better than the children at Tesla, especially in hindsight.
 
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I am hoping Tesla allows for some leaks of the model 2 design. They would benefit from feedback from the average joe, just in case they have gone a bit too adventurous :D.
We know it’s not adventurous because they already told us. Nice looking but utilitarian.

I want no leaks. About anything. Ever again. People notoriously run with them and make up elaborate bs. It’s tiresome at best.
 
Im gettin AMC Pacer vibes:
The people who brought us the X and the CT also brought us unanimous car of the year Model S, the very successful Model 3 and the best selling vehicle of any kind, Model Y. No OEM has ever produced a hit with every vehicle they’ve brought to market.

You have no idea what would have happened with a vehicle more to your liking anymore than we yet know what the final result will be for the CT.

Stop pretending you know better than the children at Tesla, especially in hindsight.
Children run Tesla? Isn't that breaking some kind of labor law, kinda like kids in the diamond mines? ;)
 
A retro conventional truck is definitely not everyone’s cup of tea either. And how quickly we’ve forgotten that Tesla will make a conventional truck when the CT turns out to be a flop.

I don’t think it will be a flop. It is unique and actually capable of truck things. We have pivoted away from it for a variety of reasons but not really any fault of the truck. (We still have our reservation 😂)

I just think a smaller mid sized offering might be something tesla could be good at. Rivian seems to make good vehicles. Just thinking a lot of the leg work may be done. If Rivian gets cheap might be a short cut to that market.

Honestly this stuff is way over my head. Just spit balling. 😎
 
Cybertruck exists as a high price point stretch item to cover R&D costs of 48V, 800V, drive by wire, 4680 cells, large format structural packs, stsinoess steel, hot stamping, 9k ton presses, and the manufacturing needed to assemble all that. Along with real-world dollars-on-the-pavement market data on range vs cost.
The unique qualities enable a premium price point which allows positive gross margins at lower volume even factoring in increased warranty reserves.

A F-150 clone would need lower cost, leading to lower margin, leading to needing high volume for break even, leading to higher risk in the event of a hardware quality issue and higher impact of line downtime.

Tesla wants to slow roll the ramp and potentially curate the owners to catch any issues early.
 
When assessing an investment, I like to look first at 3 things:

1. Is the market the company is in growing?
2. Is that company executing and aligned on the mission of that growing market?
3. Is that company consistently executing *well* towards the mission of that growing market?

I'm more growth/momentum focused than most due to my background and learnings in life. Rivian seems like a good momentum investment now...without #3 but way better than the other competitors in the space not named Tesla. If they succeed, Wall Street is going to have to increase the total realized TAM for the EV market and slap it on to TSLA's potential TAM. That's good for TSLA.

The big question is can Rivian reach break-even? They need a lot of cost cutting to achieve that. It doesn’t look like that scale will help them, so what will? Cutting features? There are only a couple of stalks and sensors they can eliminate. If they don’t do that (break-even) fast, they will need to raise a lot of money. They can only IPO once, and they got a lot of easy money with that IPO. I see nothing but dilution until they achieve break even. Dilution is not good if you already own Rivian.
 
Good grief. That’s a heck of a jan revision. Why bother reporting that early if the initial numbers are so far off?
The numbers are first loudly proclaimed and help drive a narrative and move money. The revisions are released quietly and few accounts pay attention. This has been the case for years.
Maybe if Rivian put Joe Justice on the payroll (or someone equally conversant on lean manufacturing) for an evaluation of where to improve their processes?
Joe Justice worked at Tesla for ... 3 weeks? I've worked in Agile for a decade. Should Rivian hire me?
I don’t know about you all but I have seen a LOT of Tesla ads on YouTube lately (yes I’m too cheap to get a YT membership). Practically every time I open the app and watch a video which can be a few times daily.

I think at least 5 different commercials telling about the hepa filter, heat pump, performance, etc. and fortunately they prominently show the price and fed tax credit.

I just hope these ads are reaching the right people. Preaching to the choir with me.
Did it convince you to buy a Tesla recently?

what we need is for the grown ups at Tesla to be in charge of the Model 2 design. Another weird mobile like the X or the CT would be a disaster.

If the CT was targeted at F-150 buyers, like the 3 & Y were targeted at traditional sedan and CUV buyers, it would have been the next significant leg of growth.

Now we have to wait for late 2025 / 2026.
The last time I heard "grown ups in charge" things got worse. The cybertruck had over 3 million reservations recently. Has any F-150 model had that many?
 
The big question is can Rivian reach break-even? They need a lot of cost cutting to achieve that. It doesn’t look like that scale will help them, so what will? Cutting features? There are only a couple of stalks and sensors they can eliminate. If they don’t do that (break-even) fast, they will need to raise a lot of money. They can only IPO once, and they got a lot of easy money with that IPO. I see nothing but dilution until they achieve break even. Dilution is not good if you already own Rivian.
Ferrari breaks even with small scale manufacturing, but with 52% gross margins.
Ferrari sell less than 10,000 cars per year. The starting price is over $250,000
Per car.

Rivian would need to charge a multiple of their MSRP to achieve that.
Clearly their sales would collapse at that price.

Scale manufacturing kicks in at probably over 100,000 units depending
On high the fixed costs are. Yearly amortized fixed cost divided by 100,000
Should be as low as possible.

As an example, a $5,000,000,000 fixed cost plant amortized over 10 years
Would be $500,000,000 per year, divided by 100,000
Cars would imply a fixed cost charge of $5000 per car.


A $50,000 price car with gross margins of 20%, would cover
The $5000 fixed cost with $5,000 left to cover the rest.

Rivian produced 57,000 trucks and delivered 50,000 trucks in 2023.
Rivian gross margins were minus 38% in the year 2023.
 
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