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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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I don't live in NJ. Where I live solar install is expensive. Where I live a roof lasts 15 years. An investment can be sold in the future, solar panels cannot. Therefore ROI cannot simply be stated as the amount saved per year divided by the install cost. You must factor in a terminal value of zero. I've never seen anyone selling used solar equipment.
All right. I understand ROI from this perspective, I think. For one thing, take businesses: They buy capital equipment and then, on a schedule, reduce the value of said equipment on a fixed basis; I believe there's tax implications that make it advantageous to do so.

Say that this reduction in value is 10 years. So, ten years after the company buys some Big Whopping Machine, it's value is Now Zero. But.. if it's still working, why remove it? Sure, one can spend money and get a Shiny New Big Whopping Machine.. but that only makes sense if the maintenance and such on the Old One is substantial enough to make the shift worth while.

My experience with Solar is that it's highly reliable. 15 years down the pipe it might not be worth it to remove everything and try and sell it on Ebay; nobody wants that old stuff when there's better new, anyway. But having it up there zeroes out my electricity bill that would be, I dunno, a couple hundred bucks a month, what with air conditioning, lights, the cars, and all. So, it's "value" might be zero from a capital perspective - but it's sure not zero from an English Dictionary perspective. And I haven't done maintenance, other than running around with soapy water, a sponge on a stick, and a squeegee.

I think there's something wrong with your math.
 
Frankly the part that got me more excited yesterday other than the 4680 updates is Elon saying Tesla is entering in more markets soon, so us Brazilians (@unk45 included) might have a shot in getting them in the near future with service and most important, Superchargers. Weird that the future Supercharger expansion map had none in Chile

If possible I will get an EV for me ASAP, but when you see the options here it kinda sucks, specially after having the Tesla experience. Dolphin Minis are popping up everywhere, yesterday had a Volvo EX30 parked a few houses from mine, but when you see the cost, performance/range and software and knowing those are your options, makes me a bit sad

Come to Brazil Elon/Tesla
 
One thing I don’t understand and especially since Elon has talked about this before: in a world where actual AI and plethora humanoid robots exist, “the economy” begins losing meaning and likely currency begins losing meaning so it begs asking why a dollar valuation matters at that point.

If we get there, nobody will be on here fretting about stonk gains or retirement or this or that. Everything would be “free”, that would be approaching the level of replicator technology in Star Trek and likely push us into a situation similar to the vision where nobody needs to work and money basically ceases to exist because everything is provided by AI and self-sustaining robots.

Something like that happening would be way beyond a big valuation in the stock market, the stock market wouldn’t even matter at that point.
 
So corrupt. It’s not even about the law, it’s just moving goalposts because a single person completely unrelated to the company arbitrarily decides they think it’s “too much” compensation that owners of a company have now twice attempted to pay their employee. They’re not even trying to hide it. Good riddance, Delaware. We can just vote a 3rd time after moving to TX.
So is that what needs to happen? And if so, does that whole process that we went thru now need to be repeated?

Not an American so all of this is foreign to me. Seems…weird.
 
Or maybe Elon is just optimistic and he likes ARK Invest's rather rosy outlook. By simply referring to their targets, he avoids making his own predictions and the scrutiny that would invite.
You mean like how he said "advancements in AI and robotics could result in a Tesla valuation of $30T in the future" :)

At least he threw the word "could" in there.
 
So corrupt. It’s not even about the law, it’s just moving goalposts because a single person completely unrelated to the company arbitrarily decides they think it’s “too much” compensation that owners of a company have now twice attempted to pay their employee. They’re not even trying to hide it. Good riddance, Delaware. We can just vote a 3rd time after moving to TX.
I think we are in uncharted territory. With the Texas ratification any new lawsuits against the recent vote would need to be brought in Texas. It's more or less in the proxy material we voted on. (see below). Of course the lawyers in Delaware will argue that Delaware law still applies but they would need to litigate the recent vote which would need now need to be brought to Texas. Winning both the compensation vote and redomestication vote puts Tesla in a pretty strong position.

I think the Tesla board strategy is to basically to not try to overturn the decision on the 2018 vote, but not allow any new litigation in Delaware on the most recent vote. At that point it is just about the lawyers fees from the prior decision.

Probably will end up with the US supreme court at some point deciding which state has jurisdiction.

From the proxy material.

The affairs of the Company will cease to be governed by Delaware law at the time
the Plan of Conversion is effective and will be subject to Texas law. See
“Comparison of Stockholder Rights under Delaware and Texas Law ” below.

The Company will cease to be governed by our existing charter and bylaws and
will be instead subject to the provisions of the proposed Texas Certificate of
Formation (the “Texas Charter”) and the proposed Texas Bylaws (the “Texas
Bylaws”), forms of which are included as Annex B and Annex C, respectively, to
this Proxy Statement. See “Certain Differences Between Delaware Charter and
Bylaws and Texas Charter and Bylaws ” below.
 
Former justice of the Delaware Supreme Court says yesterday's vote won't do the trick. Pretty shocking. I need to read the original ruling; apparently the amount of Musk's payday is so egregious to her, she's gonna throw it out no matter what. At least according to this person.

I hope this isn't behind paywall:

this is not surprising "corrupt judge " does not all of a sudden become "clean judge" ... she has already damaged Delaware reputation as business friendly state .. so why not double down ... she probably needs to be investigated follow the $

any way moving on to Texas and a whole new package to vote on .. We got what we needed a vote of confidence for Elon by a majority of shareholders so corrupt judge GFY :p
 
All right. I understand ROI from this perspective, I think. For one thing, take businesses: They buy capital equipment and then, on a schedule, reduce the value of said equipment on a fixed basis; I believe there's tax implications that make it advantageous to do so.

Say that this reduction in value is 10 years. So, ten years after the company buys some Big Whopping Machine, it's value is Now Zero. But.. if it's still working, why remove it? Sure, one can spend money and get a Shiny New Big Whopping Machine.. but that only makes sense if the maintenance and such on the Old One is substantial enough to make the shift worth while.

My experience with Solar is that it's highly reliable. 15 years down the pipe it might not be worth it to remove everything and try and sell it on Ebay; nobody wants that old stuff when there's better new, anyway. But having it up there zeroes out my electricity bill that would be, I dunno, a couple hundred bucks a month, what with air conditioning, lights, the cars, and all. So, it's "value" might be zero from a capital perspective - but it's sure not zero from an English Dictionary perspective. And I haven't done maintenance, other than running around with soapy water, a sponge on a stick, and a squeegee.

I think there's something wrong with your math.
There are other threads for solar. It's been flogged to death. Residential rooftop can be very lucrative for a homeowner with high local electric rates and sufficient subsidies. Especially the mother lode subsidy -- 1:1 net metering. But not everyone has high electric rates and 1:1 NEM doesn't survive beyond a few percent local penetration because renters and other generally less well-off simply can't carry that many well-off homeowners. Nor should they have to.

I'm looking into off-grid. The cost is very high even with a fossil generator backup. The cost for reliable off-grid solar without fossil backup? Off the charts. It can equal the cost of the house itself. You avoid all those costs by using the grid as an infinite battery. And you pay virtually nothing for it. Nice for you, but it doesn't scale.
 
Frankly the part that got me more excited yesterday other than the 4680 updates is Elon saying Tesla is entering in more markets soon, so us Brazilians (@unk45 included) might have a shot in getting them in the near future with service and most important, Superchargers. Weird that the future Supercharger expansion map had none in Chile

If possible I will get an EV for me ASAP, but when you see the options here it kinda sucks, specially after having the Tesla experience. Dolphin Minis are popping up everywhere, yesterday had a Volvo EX30 parked a few houses from mine, but when you see the cost, performance/range and software and knowing those are your options, makes me a bit sad

Come to Brazil Elon/Tesla
We've been expecting this since Tesla first accepted Model 3 reservations for Brazil delivery.
It's bizarre that Chile is not on the Supercharger near future, although there are quite a few other chargers there now. We really need to have a list of those new countries of which Elon spoke yesterday, don't we?
 
We've been expecting this since Tesla first accepted Model 3 reservations for Brazil delivery.
It's bizarre that Chile is not on the Supercharger near future, although there are quite a few other chargers there now. We really need to have a list of those new countries of which Elon spoke yesterday, don't we?
The EU tariffs, might just help speed things up for new markets where China made Tesla's can be shipped.
 
We've been expecting this since Tesla first accepted Model 3 reservations for Brazil delivery.
It's bizarre that Chile is not on the Supercharger near future, although there are quite a few other chargers there now. We really need to have a list of those new countries of which Elon spoke yesterday, don't we?
When he said that and then showed the Supercharger expansion I thought it would have some clues, sadly nothing
 
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Are you sure? Every home I found with Tesla Solar on them (not a lot) went above asking significantly here in SF Bay Area. Further, I sold a home with a wall charger and that was one of the bigger reasons my old home was bought a year ago (the new buyer has a Tesla and didn't want to go through the hassle of installation - they'd lived in condos before).

May be true in Cal, but here they can be a big negative. You can ask my neighbor trying to sell his house.
 
I am always struck by what my fellow "shareholders" don't ask. So no one in that room was curious about future products or a clarification ? What about the van seen in the slide? Instead concerned about factory tours for kids?

Its why I left after Elon finished his presentation. It's hard to take that group of "shareholders" seriously.
Elon has never yet talked about unrevealed products at a shareholders' meeting, so no point in asking. The products he talked about have already been revealed.
 
Um. Your situation is your situation, of course, but let me point out a couple-three things.

Back in the day when the house was being built, the SO and I, both engineers, sat down with a few web-based tools (njcleanenergy.com, at the time), figured out how big a set of panels and inverters we'd need to power the house. This was back in 2004. Although there were incentives from places, we didn't know a Thing About Them, so just ran with how much we'd save on electricity. Careful calculation revealed that it would take fifteen (15) years. We might have done it anyway, but the builder had a covenant in the contract: No "ugly" additions until two years after the last building got sold. So, we sighed and went our way.

2008 rolled around and we ended up at a home show. Solar was still expensive, but (a) the State of NJ was throwing in 20% of the cost as an incentive and (b) the Feds then, as now, was throwing in 30% of the remainder as a Tax Credit. (That's not a deduction: Whatever you owed in taxes, you simply reduced that by 30% of the cost of the solar system. And if you hit zero (which we did), you get to use the excess that you didn't use in the following years, for as many years as it took. That was nice.

In addition, there was (c), this Solar Renewable Energy Credit. One got one of these for every MW-hr of energy generated by the panels, whether or not the energy thus created went to the power company or not: The only requirements were (a) it had to be a grid-tied system (no free-standers, thank-you-very-much) and, in NJ, the calculated total amount of energy generated per year had to be less than or equal to the previous amount of energy sucked down from the power company. (That was put in there so power companies wouldn't go broke.)

The SRECs are.. interesting. By public law:
  • A power utility in the state was required to generate a certain percentage of their power by "green" means. For every MW-hr of energy that they missed by, they would have to pay something called a "SICL" payment to the State.
    • The percentage would go up year on year.
    • The SICL payment amount would go down year on year.
  • The utility could pay that SICL payment - or they could hand the State an SREC. The SRECs were tradable. There's a platform called GATS that, amongst other things like controlling power flows across most of the eastern half of the nation, they handled the creation, sale, and retirement of these SRECs.
  • Initial percentages were in the low single digits, now in the medium double-digits. SICLs started off, I think, around $800/MW-hr; they're now around $220. Small companies would scurry around and get SRECs from homeowners and the like, buy them, and sell then en masse to the utilities, for less than the SICL payments.
As a result, in the first year, the SO and I were getting $600 or so per SREC. We're getting around $198 now. The SRECs continue for fifteen years after the solar installation.

Now, the funny bit: Back in 2008, an installed solar system was about $8000 per kW of solar panel on the roof. As I said, without the incentives, paying that off in reduced electric bills would take about fifteen years. The last time I checked, that number is now about $2000 per kW of solar panel on the roof - a factor of four reduction, not including inflation.

For that reason, the original SREC program was discontinued in NJ years ago: No more grants. And, while there is a bit of an SREC program, it pays far, far less then the old one.

If it took, using prices (and lower electric bills) back in the day 15 years, with a factor of four reduction in cost, it's going to take less than four years. Even better, the cost of electricity has gone up with inflation - so it'll take even less time to break even.

That's nice for those that have the capital to just Do The Install, which, as you noted, is around $20k for you. But it gets better.

Say one takes out a home improvement loan for a solar panel system for, say, ten years or something. Home improvement loans are backed up by the collateral of the house; as such, they're generally low risk to lenders and get mortgage rates for interest. Do the calculations: The Home Improvement Loan amounts will be about 1/2 the cost of the electricity that one isn't paying for. This means that one is cash-flow-positive, from Day One. And, come the day that the loan is paid off.. Well, it's a-gonna take one whopper of a connection fee from the electric company to wreck them apples.

As far as hurricanes and such.. We asked about that. Building standards in NJ have lag bolts going into the attic rafters; they claimed that it was good for >120 mph winds, which is the same number for roofs in general up here. We don't get much in the way of hurricanes, although Sandy was fun, but Northeasters are a way of life up here, so we do get 70-80 mph winds from time to time.

As far as wear and tear on the roof: Well, it's a south facing roof where the panels are and, as near as I can tell, the panels are protecting the roof shingles. From sunlight. Which does wear out asphalt tiles.

We do get significant snow up this way; there's been up to a foot and some of snow on the roof from time to time. Interestingly, given the least amount of above-freezing weather, the glass on the solar panels kind of melts the bottom most layer of snow, and the whole mess just up and avalanches off the roof, shaking the house and deck behind the house. We lost one deck table that way from a couple hundred pounds of snow falling a couple stories. But we start getting electricity right afterwards, no problems.

Had one (1) leak, about four years in. In NJ, to be in the whole solar installation business with the SRECs and all, everything had to be warrantied for 15 years. So the guys showed up, saw the leak where I pointed it out, got on the roof, moved panels around, and fixed it. Dry since then.

I dunno. There's not a heck of a lot of argument against solar panel systems. Money in one's pocket and all that.
Refigure it with $40,000 as the figure and a life expectancy of 5 years for me along with no tax advantage. Hurricane proof is 165 mph here.
 
I struggled with the format. Almost every person who asked a question started by offering Elon their personal gratitude…it gets so redundant. The vote spoke for itself.

Tesla could advise those asking questions ; once given the mic, just ask 1 brief question without all of the informalities. On topic. No story telling.

This shouldn’t be necessary, but clearly without putting some rails in place, we get nut jobs rambling about their personal experiences and giving elevator pitches… The rest of the shareholders in and outside of that room want to hear from Elon and management. Not rando shareholders.



Or maybe Starlink. They announced with T-Mobile almost 2 years ago nationwide coverage with no dead zones.

Seems to me you’d need to have a data network available anywhere the robotaxi is providing service. But I could certainly be wrong about that.

Wouldn't Robotaxi have Starlink so there would always be connectivity? Perhaps even a dedicated channel so it wouldn't get clogged up in heavy use areas.
 
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So corrupt. It’s not even about the law, it’s just moving goalposts because a single person completely unrelated to the company arbitrarily decides they think it’s “too much” compensation that owners of a company have now twice attempted to pay their employee. They’re not even trying to hide it. Good riddance, Delaware. We can just vote a 3rd time after moving to TX.

To add to how ridiculous Mr. 9 shares and this court are:

If I remember correctly, Elon once held something like 60% of Tesla shares. While some of his stake was lost to the twitter purchase, and to necessary sales to pay taxes, I believe that MOST of Elon's reduced ownership percentage is because of overall dilution as more shares were created/issued. And: many of those newly created shares went to employees at all levels as part of their own compensation plans.

I'm too dumb to do the math on what percent ownership Elon "lost" due to employee compensation versus new stock offerings, etc....but I think it is pretty interesting that IF Tesla had used a more "standard" automaker compensation plan for employees (ie: little to no stock based compensation), Elon would today own a larger percentage of the company than he currently does. Simultaneously, the company would probably have been much less successful since the employees at all levels would have had a lower stake in the company's success, and would have only been working for their salary.

So, in a roundabout way, this court is basically saying:
  1. It was just fine for Elon to own 50+% of a $50 billion company.
  2. But, since the company has grown much more, under Elon's guidance, it is "unreasonable" for him to gain an extra 10% on top of his current diluted/reduced ownership stake in what is now a $550 billion company.
    1. And of course noting that Elon's current percent ownership is reduced due to stock-based compensation for employees at all levels effectively diluting his ownership stake
    2. And also noting that shareholders approved the compensation plan for Elon both before his guidance/decisions/management/etc. helped Tesla to achieve all the "impossible" milestones and the huge market value increase, and after all that growth took place.
    3. And of course, many of the shareholders passing this vote are literally the very same employees who gained ownershp in Tesla along the way. Employees who literally experienced first hand how Elon guided the company, kept them motivated, etc.
I know many "outsiders" will complain about Elon's "antics" or his "mistakes" in leading Tesla...but it sure says a lot that a significant portion of the shareholders are employees, and shareholders as a whole just gave Elon a big "thank you, please continue!" via this vote.
 
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Refigure it with $40,000 as the figure and a life expectancy of 5 years for me along with no tax advantage. Hurricane proof is 165 mph here.
The Atas roof I have is 225 mph. Sadly, solar doesn't work with this but it does have air space between the roof deck and the roof so the roof deck never gets hotter than ambient.
 

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I think you misunderstood my premise.

I was saying that Tesla's robotaxi network will need fleet monitoring, but they apparently haven't started working on that yet. So I'm a little disappointed that Tesla is not further along.

It's OK. There is plenty of time. I just thought they would have more of the back end infrastructure already worked out.
Assuming you have a network that can already talk to every car out there and can already send some commands, how much more is needed to talk to the RoboTaxi?
 
It effectively does with Direct to cell sats
Unless it's changed, Tesla cars use ATT. Direct to cell uses T-Mobile. True, they could use T-Mobile for the Robotaxis Tesla owns, but not for others. Starlink cuts out T-Mobile's fee. It would mean that non-Tesla owned cars would need to purchase Starlink, but I suspect that in the future a Starlink antenna will be standard equipment (there would still be a subscription to use the service).