Tesla Unionization

[growler23]

Indeed.

I'm close by Scandinavia on a global scale (Belgium, as opposed to many TMC members that are North America based) and the scuffle between Tesla and the Swedish union(s) is only a minor newspaper article over here. The 'brand damage' observed by some is minor IMO.

I sincerely hope Tesla doesn't give in to the demands of the unions. I do not want Tesla's board to contain two members appointed by the union.

Agreed on this. The "everyone who signs an agreement gets 2 Union board members" clause, while I assume it applies to the Tesla Sweden Board (a much smaller entity), is surely a nonstarter for Tesla. The reduced focus on the mission (sustainable energy) must rightly be seen as a threat to the mission. To be true to the mission, the focus at Tesla Sweden has to be delivering and maintaining the most cars and building and maintaining the most Superchargers at the least monetary and environmental cost. I include monetary because any money saved is money that goes to speeding the transition, via any of the proven pipelines of Tesla products. To the extent that the Board's focus becomes "make sure we preserve jobs for the union members regardless of job performance, inefficiency/cost, or waste" the mission is compromised. Tesla under Elon will simply not accept this.
I've said it before and I will say it again: Tesla is big enough that it does not need Sweden. Sweden is big enough that it does not need Tesla. But they both could continue to benefit from each other much more in the future if this is resolved.
BTW: I have been watching the spreading and escalation with interest. Tesla is still delivering cars but at far more cost/hassle, almost certainly. Does anyone know about Superchargers? I recall a post awhile back showing concern that SC's were not getting serviced in Sweden. Was this all chargers? Only a few? Any new word on that?

 

[Usain]

I have been working in and close to the financial services sector for over 25 years, both in the US and in Sweden. I have never seen a shred of evidence for these conspiracies of "Wall Street" trying to manipulate stocks. Sure, certain activist hedge funds and short seller may campaign to strengthen their cases but generally speaking markets are what they have always been, irrational short term but very rational long term.

I don't have first hand knowledge like you, but what you have said fits with my overall philosophy when it comes to conspiracy theories.

It's very hard to keep a conspiracy going if more than a handful of people are involved. Somebody leaks. The truth will out. Etc.

So when I hear about some shadowy world of "Wall Street" manipulators, I roll my eyes.

On the other hand, if you want to talk about specific laws, regulations, and practices that benefit certain people unfairly, I am more likely to pay attention. In my experience, corruption typically happens in plain sight.

 

[2daMoon]

This is mere perception hyped by some in the the "Left leaning" spectrum. Elon Musk has no ties with Putin or Trump.

The mere fact that Elon supports everyone's right to free speech, including those two mentioned above, does not sit well with the people who prefer to control the narrative. This is what these recent tantrums are all about. Control over others.

People united behind a cause based upon promises, which can only be fulfilled by taking someone else's rights away.

This is the human behavior which Elon opposes.

 

[SOULPEDL]

Threatening to dump stocks of something because of a disagreement is not blackmail lol

Threatening to stop advertising spending on Twitter is and was not blackmail


Hopefully we don't need a dictionary or legal consult in here, I'm sure somewhere here can define it for us

FYI, Chat agrees with you, thanks! (Assumes it doesn't lead to manipulation and there are no bylaws in the funds preventing such abuse.)
It goes on about the growing importance of ESG (Environment, Social, Governance) in investment ongoings.

This is the catch, the E in ESG is at risk trying to satisfy the G, and S is quite confused, ill informed at best. I'd think since the adoption rate for Tesla in that region is extremely high, this will not sit well with the S in short time. Tesla needs to keep the story crystal clear for the S.

 

[Artful Dodger]

So when I hear about some shadowy world of "Wall Street" manipulators, I roll my eyes.

How quickly you've forgotten that Bernie Madoff was once Chairman of the NASDAQ stock exchange. Now here's your homework: tell us about Bernie's role in the London Stock Exchange. Feel free to list the names of companies, and whether they still trade.

 

[rlsd]

It's strange that France, Spain, Poland, and many other countries in the world want Tesla presence in their country but the Swedish unions want to drive Tesla out of Sweden.

 

[Usain]

How quickly you've forgotten that Bernie Madoff was once Chairman of the NASDAQ stock exchange. Now here's your homework: tell us about Bernie's role in the London Stock Exchange. Feel free to list the names of companies, and whether they still trade.

How many people were in on the conspiracy for how long? And didn't the truth finally come out?

Wide conspiracies are possible. But it becomes harder and harder to keep a dirty secret as more people are let in on it.

So the probability of a wide-ranging Wall Street conspiracy is low. Again, it's better to pay attention to corruption that happens in plain sight.

 

[Krugerrand]

I don't know how much you follow Swedish media, but that's not how I see things evolving here. IF Metall has acted in a way that is preposterous and still a majority support their actions. I believe that could have been handled considerably better by Tesla by just engaging in the discourse and explain their position. Now their motives are being stated by others and hence, Tesla's brand takes an unnecessary hit.

It doesn’t matter what Swedish media says. It matters what IF Metall says and they’ve clearly revealed their motives which have nothing to do with the well being of Swedish workers.

Additionally, the vast majority (90%) of Tesla workers in Sweden have spoken loud and clear by simply continuing to work. Some have been interviewed and stated about being happy without a collective agreement and are worried that one will actually make their work conditions less desirable.

You’ve clearly not followed what’s gone on or been fooled by the media because Tesla has in fact stated why they won’t sign a collective agreement. Repeating the reason every time IF Metall opens its mouth or Swedish media decide yet another article saying nothing new or putting out ridiculous surveys doesn’t change that fact.

Since the beginning of Tesla there have always been people saying how Tesla should do this or that. The company has done just fine doing things their way. It’s an old, tired argument this brand hit nonsense, like all the rest. There’s zero factual proof and there’s no way to factually quantify any of it, leaving your statement nothing more than an opinion. We all know the value of opinion.

 

[unk45]

I have been working in and close to the financial services sector for over 25 years, both in the US and in Sweden. I have never seen a shred of evidence for these conspiracies of "Wall Street" trying to manipulate stocks. Sure, certain activist hedge funds and short seller may campaign to strengthen their cases but generally speaking markets are what they have always been, irrational short term but very rational long term.

Without question market makers do engage in what is called 'arbitrage' which cynics call 'manipulation'. pragmatically both terms are correct although the latter is emotionally fraught.
From long ago, traders with good information have made decisions based on superior information. They still do. Whether that is repugnant, legal or illegal depends on circumstances.
That does directly affect price volatility for TSLA, not least because of large institutional, generally market maker, intervention. Of course, market making by definition is market manipulation precisely because the role is to 'make the market'. As in all such function, the 'house' establishes trading terms.

All that often makes people not familiar with the mechanics of amulets to invent conspiracies where they do not exist. perhaps understandably people do not really understand what a 'market maker' does, nor the consequences of not having such functions.

Many years ago I was partly responsible for a large FX market making entity. On one week we made our entire goals for a year. That might seem unlikely without illegality, but is common when market movements encounter turbulence. Had a single position not happened as it did, we might well have lost rather than gained. market making does have substantial risks. However, the combination of DTC and SEC rules do have the net effect of self-regulation for US securities market makers. That single fact makes the notion of 'free and fair market' inapplicable to US securities trading. That is true, but it is NOT illegal. Many places around the world are far fairer, quite a few others even less so.

Several years developing and refining Global Custody and Global Master Trust products taught me the extent to which most investors fail to understand how derivative products like futures and options are structured to benefit their developers to the exclusion fo nearly all others.

The changes in the last 15 years or so are the advantages to ubiquitous retail investors as significant players. Almost none of them understand market mechanics well enough to know how little the models actually mean. Statistically, the environments are always outside the boundary conditions of the models. That usually works to the benefit of market makers and hedge funds. 'Usually' is NOT always. hence Long Term Capital Management, and even Silicon Valley Bank.

Here at TMC there are many who see conspiracy in these characteristics. I do not. Such is in the nature fo people who have the power to make rules. Rules made by people tend to benefit the people who make the rules. That is a human trait. reality can be harsh.

So I HODL. I look closely for signs of imprudence or hubris, and tend to sell when an investment becomes incautious financially or technically. That is tricky!

TSLA is still my largest single holding. I keep obsessing over risks. Still TSLA si more adept in managing risks than any other in my holdings.

As for Swedish issues. Nearly all opinions expressed here seem to have prior political vies as the basis. I am not sufficiently expert on anything Swedish to have an informed opinion. I do see that these issues may become material issues, but these far that seem not to be. Were I better informed I'd have an opinion.

 

[Krugerrand]

Alrighty then. Personally, I did not invest in Tesla to put a million people on Mars or to wager some battle against unions.

Then I guess you’ll be divesting.

I invested to support a much needed radical change of the planet and humanity. Radical change means somebody’s not going to be happy. Tesla/Elon are doing radical perfectly.

 

[TSemi]

I tend to entertain the idea that VW, Daimler, BMW, Volvo(Geely), and Stellantis support IF Metall rather than Tesla over collective bargaining agreements.

Why? Because they see Tesla as having an unfair advantage by not being unionized, not having collective bargaining agreements therefore being more nimble and agile as a company, to be able to make business decisions without being encumbered by union objections.

 

[CitizenKane]

It doesn’t matter what Swedish media says. It matters what IF Metall says and they’ve clearly revealed their motives which have nothing to do with the well being of Swedish workers.

Additionally, the vast majority (90%) of Tesla workers in Sweden have spoken loud and clear by simply continuing to work. Some have been interviewed and stated about being happy without a collective agreement and are worried that one will actually make their work conditions less desirable.

You’ve clearly not followed what’s gone on or been fooled by the media because Tesla has in fact stated why they won’t sign a collective agreement. Repeating the reason every time IF Metall opens its mouth or Swedish media decide yet another article saying nothing new or putting out ridiculous surveys doesn’t change that fact.

Since the beginning of Tesla there have always been people saying how Tesla should do this or that. The company has done just fine doing things their way. It’s an old, tired argument this brand hit nonsense, like all the rest. There’s zero factual proof and there’s no way to factually quantify any of it, leaving your statement nothing more than an opinion. We all know the value of opinion.

Somehow your words go very well with that image of an angry cat After you state several opinions of your own, you end your post by saying opinions lack value. It seems what you really mean is that the wrong opinions - in your eyes - lack value. This is a forum for discussion and it would be rather pointless if everybody held the same views about everything. I am very critical to Swedish unions in general and their role in this dispute in particular. But I still think Tesla has handled this very poorly.

 

[SO16]

I think IF metal and all the “sympathy unions” have handled this EXTREMELY poorly.

 

[2daMoon]

How many people were in on the conspiracy for how long? And didn't the truth finally come out?

Wide conspiracies are possible. But it becomes harder and harder to keep a dirty secret as more people are let in on it.

So the probability of a wide-ranging Wall Street conspiracy is low. Again, it's better to pay attention to corruption that happens in plain sight.

I'm kinda of the same mindset with a twist.

People in positions of influence create the opportunities by affecting the rules, and the enforcement of the rules.

Other people take advantage of the way the rules are written and how they are loosely policed.

These people don't have to be working together as part of a conspiracy (and are unlikely to be in all honesty) yet the effect is the same.

Those people given the opportunity to exploit the rules to their benefit (with soft enforcement of violations), will inevitably do so.

In hindsight, they all pat each other on the back and laugh and joke over drinks, but they didn't have to get together to perpetrate a vast conspiracy. They just had to see the opportunity that someone like Madoff influenced for their personal benefit, and jump on the bandwagon.

Ethical behavior is not something necessarily exemplified in nature as any sort of rule. Seeing the big picture and the long game also does not come naturally to people who are unwilling to take responsibility for the negative effects of their actions upon others. They will generally act in a way that benefits them in the moment, and eschew those longer period considerations.

Everybody always will do what they perceive to be best for themselves in the moment.

The difference between people's choices is determined by their experience. This is what defines their perspective and shapes their sense of ethics and morality in a way that plays a part in deciding what is "best" for them.

 

[CitizenKane]

I think IF metal and all the “sympathy unions” have handled this EXTREMELY poorly.

Agreed and I am not surprised.

 

[Krugerrand]

Somehow your words go very well with that image of an angry cat After you state several opinions of your own, you end your post by saying opinions lack value. It seems what you really mean is that the wrong opinions - in your eyes - lack value. This is a forum for discussion and it would be rather pointless if everybody held the same views about everything. I am very critical to Swedish unions in general and their role in this dispute in particular. But I still think Tesla has handled this very poorly.

I stated a number of things that were facts and not opinions as you’ve erroneously said. Let me list them for you.

1. It doesn’t matter what Swedish media says. That’s a fact. Nothing Swedish media says changes what started the strike action, what ends the strike action, the motives of IF Metall, the motives of Tesla, etc….

The(original) job/intent of media was/is to report FACTS. When a media source doesn’t do that it becomes factually useless to any and all who place even a teeny, tiny bit of importance on facts.

2. 90% of Swedish Tesla workers remain working. That’s a fact supported by at least two sources not media sources.

3. Some Swedish workers have been interviewed and said they were happy not having a collective agreement and were concerned having one would cause them to receive lower wages, no company shares etc… Fact reported by media and non-media sources.

4. You factually aren’t entirely in the loop because you said Tesla hasn’t stated their side of the argument but they in fact have. Let me paraphrase for you what they said; Signing a collective agreement is not conducive to Tesla’s work culture.

5. Surveys are ridiculous. The discussion of surveys, statistics etc… has been had by industry experts on this forum many, many, many times. At best surveys are fun games. At worse they are a way to fool people into thinking something not entirely true.

6. I’ve been on this forum for over a decade and a member of the world population for a lot longer. There factually have been minimally tens of thousands of people waving their opinions around about what Tesla should or should not do, have done etc…. Factually, Tesla has succeeded ignoring 99.99% of them.

7. There is no factual proof that there’s been brand damage, nor is there any way to factual measure brand damage. Certainly you can throw around anecdotal evidence but then so can I that would refute your brand damage claims. That makes brand damage claims opinions, not facts.

What is a fact is that Tesla continues to grow and expand, even during macro headwinds and these horrible mistakes that you and others opine Tesla and Elon have done.

8. Discussion is a process to reach a decision or exchange ideas.

An opinion is a view or judgment not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

- according to Websters

9. Factually, it is your opinion that Tesla has handled this very poorly. Opinions often derail discussion - see above definitions.

10. I am as angry as I look and you can’t possibly begin to understand why.

 

[johnnycnote]

Reality is that if Tesla leaves Sweden the movement will spread to other markets that might be more important to them. Ceding a market just for "politics" is stupid, especially one that is embracing electrification.

Who said anything about politics?

60% of Swedes side with the union. Why allocate resources to a market that doesn’t want you? At some point, you need to walk away. And I don’t see a snow ball effect, Germany was the biggest concern and they they’ve basically sided with Tesla

 

[Tiger]

I'm having difficulty understanding this fully [ Tesla wouldn't be the same if there was outside influence within its board. ]. Could you elaborate?

Tesla is a trailblazer. You really think Tesla will continue to be a Trailblazer once its board decisions are held back by Swedish unions whose attitude is "Tesla wants to slip into its own lane and draw up its own rules. They can forget that. That's not how the Swedish labor market works, says Malin Ragnegård in the press release".

 

[JupiterMan]

I've looked. And I can't find a definition of Blackmail that has the least to do with their position.

extortion is a more apt word to use.

 

[Artful Dodger]

How many people were in on the conspiracy for how long? And didn't the truth finally come out?

Hah! Don't ask me! YOU do the work! Laughs at 'conspiracies'.