Tesla Unionization

[MP3Mike]

Tesla is hiring someone to handle that.

I don't think their plan is to make strikes illegal, I doubt that they would ever succeed, even if they tried. Probably not even trying to change what is required to strike.

They are probably going to try to get limits applied to sympathy actions.

 

[2daMoon]

I don't think their plan is to make strikes illegal, I doubt that they would ever succeed, even if they tried. Probably not even trying to change what is required to strike.

They are probably going to try to get limits applied to sympathy actions.

It seems to me they initially intend to gain an understanding of what the legalities are from someone who is intimate with Swedish law.

Once they have a clear understanding about where they stand and what the options are they might pursue taking legal action on the matters where they are confident a wrong can be proven.

I would not expect to see anything in the courts from Tesla until they have developed a strategy the local experts agree has a strong chance of success.

No more taking shots across the bow in the hope of deterring the attack. Just wait until IF Metall set themselves up, then take the shot to hit them at the waterline.

 

[Zuikkis]

So you believe a Tesla employee can just walk just walk off their job for(not sure the length, a week or more?) without an excused absence and come back and say "I'm sorry" and it's all good, right? Right?

Yes, that's how it works in most civilised countries. Strike is a legal reason to not go to work. You can't be fired for that .

 

[jabloomf1230]

Mod: cool down the tone of the discussion (if it can be called that). --ggr

It's contradiction, as Michael Palin once lamented.

 

[2daMoon]

It's contradiction, as Michael Palin once lamented.

No it isn't!

 

[Krugerrand]

No one has lost his job at Hydro, but apparently that's too difficult to understand for some people.
Any objective criteria clearly show that the US has the crappiest working conditions in the Western world. No minimum holiday time, no paid maternity leave, the US is not only the only country in the Western world to lack those, paid maternity leave is even a standard in most developing countries. Most cases of private insolvency in the US are caused by medical bills, also basically unheard of anywhere else in the Western world.
These things weren't achieved by being all nice towards company owners.
Yet a couple of Musk fans try to convince people that bully boy, "pedo-guy" Musk somehow represents good news for employees in Europe.
You really have to live in a completely cuddled tech-industry bubble to believe that.

You either need to stay on topic, or stop posting in this thread. Go start your own thread where you tell everyone how horrible it is to live and work in the US. I’m sure plenty of Americans will be happy to cuddle you.

 

[MP3Mike]

Which makes it "not legal".

Again you are confusing two different things: Striking and sympathy measures.

IG Metall couldn't participate when asked because the sympathy measures would be illegal.

 

[MP3Mike]

No one has lost his job at Hydro, but apparently that's too difficult to understand for some people.

Do you have any proof of that? Hydro themselves said that initially they were able to move the people elsewhere but if it went on there would be "redundancies" and that they had asked for, and received, permission to cut staff.

It has gone on, and rumors are that Tesla has sourced the part from China. (They haven't had to stop production in Berlin so the rumor is likely true.)

 

[Zuikkis]

Tesla Model Y becomes Sweden’s best-selling car despite ongoing strike

As per data from Sweden-based automotive statistics firm Car.info Sweden, Tesla saw a 120% increase in its sales and market share in 2023.

www.teslarati.com

 

[Just a Reader]

Do you have any proof of that? Hydro themselves said that initially they were able to move the people elsewhere but if it went on there would be "redundancies" and that they had asked for, and received, permission to cut staff.

It has gone on, and rumors are that Tesla has sourced the part from China. (They haven't had to stop production in Berlin so the rumor is likely true.)

Please take a look at #1,131. Obviously management would attempt to use some pressure to motivate employees to stop their sympathy strike. That doesn't mean that they would be able to go through with redundancies.

 

[Just a Reader]

You either need to stay on topic, or stop posting in this thread. Go start your own thread where you tell everyone how horrible it is to live and work in the US. I’m sure plenty of Americans will be happy to cuddle you.

Well, look here, mate, I seriously wonder why you believe that your post is anywhere close to being on topic. You are welcome to ignore me if a sudden confrontation with an opposing opinion ist too upsetting for you or threatens your mental health.

With plenty of Americans claiming here that unions are a racket or outdated it is exactly on topic to point out that the social benefits enjoyed by European workers don't come from nowhere, but are to a major extent the result of union action.

In comparison the rights of employees in the US are completely substandard. California has just raised the minimum number of sick days for employees to a measly 5 days/year and that is one of the most progressive states in the US. Therefore employees shouldn't hope for any goodies from politicians.
The fact that train drivers in the US only managed to raise their working conditions from the 19th century somewhat towards modernity after threatening to bring rail transport to a stop with strike action organised by their union, rather indicates that the US suffers from too little unionisation and strike action.

 

[2daMoon]

Well, no, the US suffers from too much government subsidy for goods and services which should be run in such a way to be both profitable and fair to all involved. Any product or service which cannot make it economically should be allowed to fail. Only then will a viable replacement be created to take its place. Subsidizing a marginal solution prevents a more balanced option from taking over.

Let's talk about trains then. Transportation for freight and mass transit in the US, as designed, does not earn enough to support itself. Tossing in table scraps for management and employees (unions) to fight over just makes the environment for innovation and improvement worse.

If the goal of unions were to make things better, they would be as focused on parallel goals for their members that boost productivity, cut costs, and improve the business. Such a focus would foster a better relationship between management and workers so they can share in their common achievements.

Instead, unions will most often maintain an environment that is polarized against the goose laying the golden eggs. Fighting tooth and nail over wages and other (reasonable) goals, yet doing so in a way that destroys morale, creates a divisive working environment, and stalls any efforts to enhance the business itself so that it may be able to afford to provide for the union demands.

It is time for unions to evolve and take a partnership role that results in management and employees working toward a common goal in a way that accelerates the process, rather than retards it.

Tesla is the poster-child for this environment.

Unions and Management should be studying Tesla and working together to emulate the recipe for grand levels of success that is demonstrated for all to see, rather than work to bring Tesla down to their existing level of inefficiency.

 

[Zuikkis]

With plenty of Americans claiming here that unions are a racket or outdated it is exactly on topic to point out that the social benefits enjoyed by European workers don't come from nowhere, but are to a major extent the result of union action

I think you are right here, and I don't think many Americans disagree? There's lot to improve in work conditions in the US and unions probably are the only way.

But this is not at all the point of Tesla Sweden strike. Tesla offers equal or better benefits than what's required by the union. In almost any other European country, no union would start an unfounded strike like this.

 

[MP3Mike]

Please take a look at #1,131. Obviously management would attempt to use some pressure to motivate employees to stop their sympathy strike. That doesn't mean that they would be able to go through with redundancies.

Got it, you don't have any. For those not wanting to search for the post here is the important part:

It has affected us from day one in that we lose revenue and that in an already strained economic time. But the concern for the future is greater. Aluminum parts for electric cars is a strongly growing market, and if the strike goes on for a long time, it could reduce the confidence of Swedish suppliers. Then other suppliers will take over, says Jonas Bjuhr, CEO of Hydro Extrusions Sweden.How many employees are covered by the fact that you are not allowed to handle Tesla goods?- About 20, above all in Vetlanda, and we have so far been able to move them to other departments. But if this goes on for a long time, there is an absolute risk of redundancies, we have already been given permission to reduce the number of hired employees.

Note this was a repost in late December, of something posted in early December, from a December 6th article/press release, shortly after the Hydro sympathy action started. How can you say that it is doubtly that the "would be able to go through with redundancies" when they clearly stated that they had already received permission to go through with them? So, clearly they could go through with them.

But as the sympathy action didn't end quickly, about a month after it started, we have had reports that they did in fact end up letting employees go:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1738163761754656862

Translation of the important portion:

The latest information is that Hydro in Vetlanda now, just in time for Christmas, has to send employees home as the union's strike action has ruined this deal. Vela-Pekka was out in the media and slapped himself on the chest about how this hurts Tesla, also a pure lie. It doesn't hurt Tesla, Tesla has already shifted and is now taking this product from Hydro in China. The deal remains within the Hydro Group, but 20 jobs, knowledge and tax revenues disappeared directly from Sweden.

Imagine that. You have ~20 people dedicated to fulfilling one contract, and that contract goes away and you end up having to let them go. Doesn't seem like a surprise. (I suppose there was the possibility that they could find other contracts to fulfill that capacity, but it seems like they were not able to.)

 

[Just a Reader]

Well, no, the US suffers from too much government subsidy for goods and services which should be run in such a way to be both profitable and fair to all involved. Any product or service which cannot make it economically should be allowed to fail. Only then will a viable replacement be created to take its place. Subsidizing a marginal solution prevents a more balanced option from taking over.

Let's talk about trains then. Transportation for freight and mass transit in the US, as designed, does not earn enough to support itself. Tossing in table scraps for management and employees (unions) to fight over just makes the environment for innovation and improvement worse.

If the goal of unions were to make things better, they would be as focused on parallel goals for their members that boost productivity, cut costs, and improve the business. Such a focus would foster a better relationship between management and workers so they can share in their common achievements.

Instead, unions will most often maintain an environment that is polarized against the goose laying the golden eggs. Fighting tooth and nail over wages and other (reasonable) goals, yet doing so in a way that destroys morale, creates a divisive working environment, and stalls any efforts to enhance the business itself so that it may be able to afford to provide for the union demands.

It is time for unions to evolve and take a partnership role that results in management and employees working toward a common goal in a way that accelerates the process, rather than retards it.

Tesla is the poster-child for this environment.

Unions and Management should be studying Tesla and working together to emulate the recipe for grand levels of success that is demonstrated for all to see, rather than work to bring Tesla down to their existing level of inefficiency.

Transportation for freight and mass transit in the US, as designed, does not earn enough to support itself.

Indeed? You should tell Warren Buffet, as Berkshire Hathaway is the sole owner of the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Corporation, the freight railway company. At the time of acquisition in 2010 it was his largest acquisition ever, at $ 44 billion. Does Buffet strike you as the kind of man who would spend that sort of Berkshire Hathaway's money to buy into an unprofitable business model?
At the time of the train drivers' labour action I read that the freight railways generated very substantial profits for their owners. They aren't AMTRAK.
I won't expand this any further, as I would then get off topic indeed.

 

[heltok]

Got it, you don't have any. For those not wanting to search for the post here is the important part:


Note this was a repost in late December, of something posted in early December, from a December 6th article/press release, shortly after the Hydro sympathy action started. How can you say that it is doubtly that the "would be able to go through with redundancies" when they clearly stated that they had already received permission to go through with them? So, clearly they could go through with them.

But as the sympathy action didn't end quickly, about a month after it started, we have had reports that they did in fact end up letting employees go:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1738163761754656862

Translation of the important portion:


Imagine that. You have ~20 people dedicated to fulfilling one contract, and that contract goes away and you end up having to let them go. Doesn't seem like a surprise. (I suppose there was the possibility that they could find other contracts to fulfill that capacity, but it seems like they were not able to.)

Imo it doesn't really matter. Either they had to fire 20 workers or they didn't hire a future 20 workers or something in between. Either way 20 jobs were lost, either to current workers or to future workers. Given that they likely would have to hire more workers in the future as Berlin would have ramped the number is likely even higher than this. Sweden lost and China gained another 20-100 jobs directly, likely even more indirectly as other suppliers in Sweden will lose competitiveness in future negotiations.

 

[2daMoon]

Transportation for freight and mass transit in the US, as designed, does not earn enough to support itself.

Indeed? You should tell Warren Buffet, as Berkshire Hathaway is the sole owner of the Burlington Northern Santa Fe Corporation, the freight railway company. At the time of acquisition in 2010 it was his largest acquisition ever, at $ 44 billion. Does Buffet strike you as the kind of man who would spend that sort of Berkshire Hathaway's money to buy into an unprofitable business model?
At the time of the train drivers' labour action I read that the freight railways generated very substantial profits for their owners. They aren't AMTRAK.
I won't expand this any further, as I would then get off topic indeed.

freight train subsidies at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

Oh, and nice try to derail (pun intended) the meat and potatoes in that post regarding how unions cut their own nose off to spite their face.

 

[Zuikkis]

Sweden lost and China gained another 20-100 jobs directly, likely even more indirectly as other suppliers in Sweden will lose competitiveness in future negotiations.

This is a good point. The number can be much higher.

For example, PostNord is offering their services in other countries as well, they are a courier service like DHL or Fedex.

I'm running a car parts webshop here in Finland.. I already removed PostNord as possible shipping method, as I don't feel they are trustworthy. It's unbearable that they could take my parcel as hostage in some unrelated union hickup?

I don't deal Tesla parts, but who knows what they will come up with next.

Removing PostNord shipping doesn't make any difference as there are many others services that don't have this burden.

My personal "sympathy action"..

 

[Zuikkis]

Tesla new car registrations in Sweden rose 9% in Dec - ET Auto

Data from Swedish auto industry association Mobility Sweden showed 1,789 new Tesla cars were registered in December, up from 1,645 in the same month of 2022. The U.S. company's market share grew to 6.1% from 4.6%.

auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com

Data from Swedish auto industry association Mobility Sweden showed 1,789 new Tesla cars were registered in December, up from 1,645 in the same month of 2022.

 

[Bet TSLA]

So long as this thread is pretty much about the strike in Sweden, I think that it would be much more useful if Americans who are ignorant of European culture, law, and norms simply stop posting anything other than simple questions. The opinions expressed in such posts are worthless.

"Rah, rah America" and "why isn't Europe more like America" stuff is completely useless in understanding what's going on and how it can best be resolved.