Tesla Unionization

[growler23]

Maybe within ~50-100 km of the Danish, Norwegian and Finnish border, but other than that the Swedish market would probably be lost unless Tesla lets other companies take over the repair side of the business.

And again, what market would be next?... Is Tesla willing to lose the Norwegian market as well?... What would this do to all of Tesla's sales in Europe, if they could decide to abandon any market in Europe at any time?... And what would it do to the values of existing customer's cars. The Model S and X as well as the Y and 3 are considerably more expensive in many European markets compared to the US for example...

That is the question I'm asking. How big is the support beyond Sweden? From other responses, it sounds like that support may only go so far: words but not deeds. Others in the region might be happy to help Tesla when push comes to shove, given that this isn't a clear cut "anti-union" situation, but what looks more like overreach by IF Metall -- unsupported by 90% of the Tesla Sweden employees themselves.
Also, although it's not the Swedish model of doing business, it might be worth noting that The Tesla Way is not the US way of running an auto business either.
With their end-around play to avoid the politically powerful dealer lobby here ... let's just say Tesla have proven their business/legal "mettle" before against well funded entrenched interests, so "Metall" might do well to take that to heart.

 

[2daMoon]

Actually getting rid of a foreign billionaire trying to force a change to a working system that he doesn't understand would be considered a great solution for many.

So, this is news to me that some foreign billionaire started this. I thought it was a local group of thugs using tactics usually found in mob-related movies.

"You need to buy our protection service. Sign the contract. It is for the good of you and your employees. You're making us look bad by paying good wages and providing an excellent working environment. So, we'll just have to show you how much you need our protection. Capiche?"

There have been no threats from Tesla, have there? Only from the thugs intent on using force to get their way.

It could be that, deep down, some of the people of Sweden want someone like Elon to put these gangsters in their place.

Time will tell.

On, and by the way, this is the thread created for this discussion, not the Investment Tread.

 

[samppa]

Did some googling.

All the swedish collective agreements are here:

Swedish labour market model and collective agreements - Arbetsmiljöverket

Here is information on what the Swedish labour market model is, links to collective agreements in various industries and contact information to responsible employer- and employee-representative organisations.

www.av.se

scroll down, you will find IF Metals agreements with links to pdf in swedish. So its all public information.

And as I've said before:
A collective agreement is a written agreement on terms of employment between an employer-representative organisation or an employer and a union organisation.

It is not an agreement between Tesla and IF Metal. Tesla would have to join a emploeyr-representativr organizatuon and they negotiate these agreements.

swedish model doesn't differ much from finnish model.

 

[MP3Mike]

It appears that the 90% being union members may be shrinking little by little.

From here:

Have 2 friends who left the union today.sako & If metal.How many are there that disappear because of this??

and here:

Hope so.Got information from one of them, that Seko called up & tried to persuade them not to go out. And asked why…The person from seko said that several had chosen to leave because of the Tesla conflict.

 

[2daMoon]

...
And as I've said before:
A collective agreement is a written agreement on terms of employment between an employer-representative organisation or an employer and a union organisation.

It is not an agreement between Tesla and IF Metal. Tesla would have to join a emploeyr-representativr organizatuon and they negotiate these agreements.

Maybe something is lost in translation and I'm misunderstanding this, but the "or clause" in the bolded/underlined part above indicates that this can be an agreement directly between the employer and a union organization without the employer being part of an employer-representative organization.

 

[samppa]

Maybe something is lost in translation and I'm misunderstanding this, but the "or clause" in the bolded/underlined part above indicates that this can be an agreement directly between the employer and a union organization without the employer being part of an employer-representative organization.

Looks like you're right.

Tesla sweden is after all a small company, so it would not make sense to go into an agreement without joining an employers organization.

 

[2daMoon]

Looks like you're right.

Tesla sweden is after all a small company, so it would not make sense to go into an agreement without joining an employers organization.

From my perspective, it would not make sense to go into an agreement that doesn't benefit Tesla in some way. There seems to be no carrot, only a stick.

A contract should always be a "meeting of the minds" benefiting each of the parties involved. Any contract which has been entered into due to coercion should be considered null and void.

This union has avoided providing specific examples of what problems at Tesla locations the contract would address, other than perhaps there being a problem with Tesla already treating employees better than the union has been able to negotiate for their members elsewhere.

 

[Krugerrand]

WRONG! Ok... Depends on the exact number specified by 'a handful'...

According to Tesla themselves more than 90% of employees are still working.

Source in Swedish:

Teslas brev till ägarna: 90% har valt att jobba | Carup.se

Nu trappas Teslastrejken upp till en informationsstrid. Tesla har skickat brev till drygt 50 000 svenska Teslaägare. Fackförbundet Elektrikerna buntar fast sina budskap vid och på Teslas laddstolpar. – Mer än 90 procent av våra anställda har valt att stanna kvar på sina tjänster, skriver Tesla...

carup.se

Last month last year Tesla had 289 employees.

Source in Swedish:

TM Sweden AB | Aktiebolag | Info & Löner - Bolagsfakta

TM Sweden AB – Org.nummer: 556931-4098. På Bolagsfakta.se hittar du kontakt-och företagsinformation, nyckeltal, lön till VD & styrelse m.m.

www.bolagsfakta.se

So is that 90% of the total number employees? Or is it 90% of the mechanics?

9% out of 289 employees is 26 mechanics on strike.
9% out of 130 mechanics is 12 mechanics on strike.
9% out of 400 employees is 36 mechanics on strike... – Almost a year has passed since Tesla had 289 employees. What if they have 400 employees now?...

You tell me how many employees. I haven’t got a clue, but you’re talking like it’s all Tesla employees. It’s not even close to all. It’s not even close to half of employees. You want me to be less vague than a handful; I’ll start right after you start being less vague.

What part do you not understand? Who the *sugar* cares about what the Swedish Right Wing Media thinks?! Not me.

Pay attention. I don’t care what ANY media source says about anything. It’s all some form of fiction and fantasy to get people to click.

However, you seem to have decided that certain media that supports your beliefs is to believed above media that doesn’t support your beliefs. Read my lips: The premise is ridiculous.

 

[mars_or_bust]

Deep down, the unions know they are just parasites. But like true parasites, this does not bother them. They are only bothered if the public becomes aware of this, for then the public will want to get rid of them.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1729387705992405356

 

[mars_or_bust]

 

[Mengy]

Ok... I misinterpreted handful as meaning five a the most. But it's still very, very vague. The number of mechanics on strike are at least 12.

 

[2daMoon]

I found this recording of an IT Metall contract negotiation session...

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

The so called Swedish model is dependent on employers agreeing to enter into Collective agreements. If they don't, then the entire system will fall and everything will have to be regulated through legislation instead. So we don't focus on a single company like you guys seem to do. We look at the entire country. The total Swedish work force is around 5.6 MILLION workers. And around 70% of those are members in a union. So that's almost 4 MILLION people.

So it's the total unionized workforce on one hand – 4 million – and whatever the amount of non union mechanics that are working at Tesla (~95-115) on the other.

I'm pro-union. Most of you folks seem to be against unions. It is what it is.

 

[Mengy]

The so called Swedish model is dependent on employers agreeing to enter into Collective agreements. If they don't, then the entire system will fall and everything will have to be regulated through legislation instead. So we don't focus on a single company like you guys seem to do. We look at the entire country. The total Swedish work force is around 5.6 MILLION workers. And around 70% of those are members in a union. So that's almost 4 MILLION people.

So it's the total unionized workforce on one hand – 4 million – and whatever the amount of unorganized mechanics that are working at Tesla (~95-115).

I'm pro-union. Most of you folks seem to be against unions. It is what it is.

And yet, many companies in Sweden are NOT part of the union. So why is IF Metall focusing on Tesla, a company whose majority employees do NOT want to unionize? Why go to this extreme to force their agenda onto others?

Logically IF Metall should listen to Tesla's wishes, hope the working conditions there degrade terribly, and then wait for the Tesla employees to come to THEM, not vice versa. But no, IF Metall is forcing the issue and going all in for a very small number of due paying employees.

It is not rational to assume IF Metall is doing this for altruistic reasons. Their actions here clearly demonstrate otherwise.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

And yet, many companies in Sweden are NOT part of the union. So why is IF Metall focusing on Tesla, a company whose majority employees do NOT want to unionize? Why go to this extreme to force their agenda onto others?

Logically IF Metall should listen to Tesla's wishes, hope the working conditions there degrade terribly, and then wait for the Tesla employees to come to THEM, not vice versa. But no, IF Metall is forcing the issue and going all in for a very small number of due paying employees.

In December, 2020 Tesla Sweden had 178 employees.
In December, 2021 they had 220 employees.
In December, 2022 they had 289 employees.

Source in Swedish:

TM Sweden AB - Bokslut & Nyckeltal

TM Sweden AB,556931-4098 - På allabolag.se hittar du , bokslut, nyckeltal, koncern, koncernträd, styrelse, Status

www.allabolag.se

So how many employees does Tesla have today? 360?

That means that Metall could have ~12-34 members on strike at Tesla. According to how things work in Sweden those ~12-34 members have a right to ask their union for support so that they can have their working conditions regulated in a Collective agreement. And they obviously did ask their union for that help. And now their union is helping them. And other unions are helping Metall.

It is not rational to assume IF Metall is doing this for altruistic reasons. Their actions here clearly demonstrate otherwise.

I do of course completely disagree. And I explained why in my previous post.

 

[Mengy]

So how many employees does Tesla have today? 360?

That means that Metall could have ~12-34 members on strike at Tesla. According to how things work in Sweden those ~12-34 members have a right to ask their union for support so that they can have their working conditions regulated in a Collective agreement. And they obviously did ask their union for that help. And now their union is helping them. And other unions are helping Metall.

So you truly feel it is rational to force over 300 people to do something they don't want to, put countless ancillary businesses into financial stress, and cause all this uproar, just because a dozen or so people want to unionize? Why don't they simply quit Tesla and go work for an actual union business if they want better conditions?

Please explain to me how you feel this is justified or even worthwhile. I want to understand your position but you are not convincing me in the slightest. Please, help me understand.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

So you truly feel it is rational to force over 300 people to do something they don't want to, put countless ancillary businesses into financial stress, and cause all this uproar, just because a dozen or so people want to unionize? Why don't they simply quit Tesla and go work for an actual union business if they want better conditions?

Please explain to me how you feel this is justified or even worthwhile. I want to understand your position but you are not convincing me in the slightest. Please, help me understand.

Again:
It's about the entire system. The ~70% that are unionized in Sweden don't wan't this regulated through legislation. They want this regulated between the employees and the employer. And the only way to get a fair and reasonable deal that way is to organize with other employees. So it's the total unionized workforce on one hand – ~4 million – and whatever the amount of non union mechanics that are working at Tesla (~95-115) on the other.

Without a union, the ~4 million folks in Sweden that are union members are never going to get a fair and reasonable deal.

And again:
~90% of the total work force in Sweden is covered by a Collective Agreement.

Also:
There is a near total consensus among larger companies in Sweden that this is a completely reasonable way of doing business. Hence the ~90% coverage rate with regards to Collective agreements for the total work force.

And:
There are ZERO political parties out of ALL the eight political parties in the single Swedish Parliament that oppose this system.

And finally:
You can just as well turn your way or reasoning around. Given what I've outlined above – why is Tesla's CEO taking this stand just on what?... Principle? Every other company of Tesla's size in this sector in Sweden has managed to enter into a Collective agreement. And Tesla could of course do that as well. So why fight it? Especially since Tesla claims they already meet or exceed everything that would would be agreed upon in a Collective agreement...

 

[SO16]

Again:
It's about the entire system. The ~70% that are unionized in Sweden don't wan't this regulated through legislation. They want this regulated between the employees and the employer. And the only way to get a fair and reasonable deal that way is to organize with other employees. So it's the total unionized workforce on one hand – ~4 million – and whatever the amount of non union mechanics that are working at Tesla (~95-115) on the other.

Without a union, the ~4 million folks in Sweden that are union members are never going to get a fair and reasonable deal.

And again:
~90% of the total work force in Sweden is covered by a Collective Agreement.

Also:
There is a near total consensus among larger companies in Sweden that this is a completely reasonable way of doing business. Hence the ~90% coverage rate with regards to Collective agreements for the total work force.

And:
There are ZERO political parties out of ALL the eight political parties in the single Swedish Parliament that oppose this system.

And finally:
You can just as well turn your way or reasoning around. Given what I've outlined above – why is Tesla's CEO taking this stand just on what?... Principle? Every other company of Tesla's size in this sector in Sweden has managed to enter into a Collective agreement. And Tesla could of course do that as well. So why fight it? Especially since Tesla claims they already meet or exceed everything that would would be agreed upon in a Collective agreement...

Unions in the US used to be needed but have since become bloated and exceedingly greedy expenses that massively slows innovation. Extremely obvious when looking at the UAW. This latest agreement with the UAW will help kill legacy auto.

Why should the minority of Tesla employees in Sweden force the rest of them to join the union if they don’t want it?

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Why should the minority of Tesla employees in Sweden force the rest of them to join the union if they don’t want it?

Again:
Like I've already written in my three previous posts – it's not "the minority of Tesla employees". It's the total unionized workforce on one hand – ~4 million – and whatever the amount of non union mechanics that are working at Tesla (~95-115) on the other.

 

[2daMoon]

The so called Swedish model is dependent on employers agreeing to enter into Collective agreements. If they don't, then the entire system will fall and everything will have to be regulated through legislation instead. So we don't focus on a single company like you guys seem to do. We look at the entire country. The total Swedish work force is around 5.6 MILLION workers. And around 70% of those are members in a union. So that's almost 4 MILLION people.

So it's the total unionized workforce on one hand – 4 million – and whatever the amount of non union mechanics that are working at Tesla (~95-115) on the other.

I'm pro-union. Most of you folks seem to be against unions. It is what it is.

I'm not against unions, per se, but I am against any organization that resorts to threats and force to get their way.

If the idea is to make the workplace, conditions, and salary better, then come to the table with examples of how the company isn't meeting those standards and work from there.

Assuming from the get-go that the union is necessary to secure these things leaves no room to evaluate whether that is indeed the case, or not.

If a company is already meeting or exceeding the standards the union would expect from them under a contract, and, the union keeps applying pressure, disrupting the business, and offering to pay workers at a higher rate just to go on strike, then, the goal of the union isn't what they say it is.

How could anybody operating a business that exceeds the union standards feel comfortable entering into an agreement with a bully that by all evidence is only interested in expanding their power?