Tesla Unionization

[johnnycnote]

There doesn't seem to be any point being made to negotiate over.

Don't equate Sweden with IF Metall. I'm sure Tesla has a long, profitable future in Sweden.

The equation is:

• There is no complaint about Tesla's working conditions nor employee treatment. In fact the union has indicated Tesla exceeds expectations.
• There is no law compelling a business to enter into a collective agreement.
• IF Metall wants to force Tesla Sweden to sign a collective agreement, based entirely upon the premise that "everybody else does" while failing to share how doing so would benefit Tesla or Tesla's employees.

The union, IF Metall, is then, in retaliation, employing tactics which are negatively affecting the working conditions of the Tesla employees, and costing Tesla profits (which could otherwise be used to further improve employee benefits).

This includes uses of force which are considered unethical and unlawful (racketeering) in many developed nations (except for maybe Sicily, wink wink, nudge nudge).

All in order to lever Tesla to sign a contract which in no way serves Tesla, and would only legitimize IF Metall. Sort of like how the Mafia gets their "protection" money for promising not to burn down your business.

Where, exactly, would a negotiation over this expect to begin?

Agree. I expect zero negotiations. Most foreseeable outcome is Tesla pulling out with the union getting the blame

 

[Krugerrand]

I expect that this conflict will eventually be resolved over the negotiating table.
Right now both sides are trying to win "on the battlefield" to avoid this negotiation, or to strengthen their position when the negotiation finally occurs.
It has been interesting to watch each side move and counter-move, and call up their allies (mostly IF Metall on this one).
Tesla does not need Sweden, but would like to sell there.
Sweden does not need Tesla, but would like to have them.
It does seem to this caveman brain that a solution space must exist for this particular differential equation.

Still eating the popcorn and watching with interest.

The only side I see trying to ‘win’ is the union. Tesla is ignoring them for the most part and simply carrying on business as usual.

It doesn’t seem, given the recent interview, that Elon is in any kind of negotiating mood with what he views as blackmailers. So, no. I don’t see any negotiations in the near future. I do see more lawsuits, though.

 

[Krugerrand]

That isn't an argument. You are like a pre-schooler who holds his ears shut whenever he hears something that doesn't fit into his perception of reality. Nowadays that seems to be good enough to be elected President in the US, though. Apparently some random dude on X is supposed to be more trustworthy than the NY Times.

I didn’t say anyone was more trustworthy than another. Indeed, I’ve been very clear I don’t believe anyone.

“I read an article in” - pick your media source paid to say what their advertisers tell them to say - doesn’t fly on any day except Sundays between 2:00 am and 2:00:01 am.

And as this grade schooler always says; takes one to know one.

Keep it up and this thread will get closed too, then you won’t have anywhere to have your tantrum.

 

[Krugerrand]

Do you seriously consider your posts to be so profound, that you have to recommend them again?
Your opinion on what Tesla has offered in Sweden doesn't really go beyond an "I suppose". Tesla may offer better conditions than what a deal with the union may have to offer as an alternative, or it may just to good old bullying tactics to keep the union outside. In Germany Tesla certainly didn't offer anything better than what the union deals at other manufacturers have to offer.

Employees that actually work at Tesla in Sweden have gone on record and publicly stated they get paid more than union minimum etc…

 

[2daMoon]

Do you seriously consider your posts to be so profound, that you have to recommend them again?
Your opinion on what Tesla has offered in Sweden doesn't really go beyond an "I suppose". Tesla may offer better conditions than what a deal with the union may have to offer as an alternative, or it may just to good old bullying tactics to keep the union outside. In Germany Tesla certainly didn't offer anything better than what the union deals at other manufacturers have to offer.

Please, share any additional info you might have gleaned. If the union won't provide a compelling reason for their goal, then "I suppose" is all we can judge them by.

An article posted yesterday, which I quoted from, had an IF Metal representative stating that Tesla employees get better pay than the union would suggest. Both in that article, and in another public statement from an IF Metal official, their repeated concern is that if Tesla doesn't voluntarily sign the agreement, other businesses might not as well. This alone doesn't seem to be a very compelling argument for Tesla to comply, in and of itself if it changes nothing for Tesla and helps IF Metall.

Caving to bullies' demands is never a good long-term choice, whether they be unions, organized crime, or terrorists.

The union and their Advocate on this forum have been less than forthcoming with any information that would paint the picture differently, would you not agree? If not, provide examples rather than complain about the people asking for more information.

Pointed questions have been put in order to gain insight into their broad generalizations for this matter. Which, detail free generic statements are all that have been offered.

Other reports in public media indicate multiple Tesla employees this agreement would directly affect have voiced how they are content to work for Tesla without it. In fact, they are not participating in the strike. Half the union member Tesla employees have reportedly declined to join the strike.

The only one doing any bullying is the union. Tesla has not fought them in any way, except when their actions went outside the scope of their power. Then, Tesla brought it to court and the court sided with Tesla.

The union, to the best of what we have discerned, have not made any offer as an alternative. As per the union itself, Tesla already, as you wrote, "provides better conditions than what a deal with the union may have to offer as an alternative."

It might help if you go back ten pages in this thread and bring yourself up to speed before making baseless accusations. It is clear you are not aware of what few particulars have been shared so far.

 

[Takumi]

I'm just waiting for a non-Tesla shop to go under from this and Tesla taking over that shop. I think that's where this is headed.

I also see this as Tesla's opportunity to problem solve (delivery side), similar to the semiconductor (supply side) disruption.

It reminds me of Starlink getting battle-tested by hackers. This is a company that thrives in adversity.

No, I don't think Tesla will "cave."

 

[Hiline]

I just read an interesting piece in the NY Times that doctors and pharmacists in the US are increasingly joining unions, as they consider them to be necessary to survive in a health sector that is dominated by large companies now. So much for unions being a thing of the past.
I also recall the Silicon Valley scandal when tech companies were found out to have entered into an illegal agreement not to poach each other's employees. Apparently tech companies aren't above some good old racketeering to keep the employees down. Obviously they got away with nothing more than a slap on the wrist.
Somehow people in the US seem to believe that unions are the problem. The fall of Boeing's commercial jet business from global leader to the shame of the 737 Max most certainly wasn't caused by the unions.

There are good unions and bad unions. The longshoremen is quite notorious, while the Disney unions and SAG-AFTRA are highly functional. I don't detest unions, but I don't think unions are necessary by default.

 

[Zuikkis]

IF Metall is bragging in media it has 10 billion kronor (about 860M €) strike budget..

IF Metall har 10 miljarder att strejka för

IF Metall fortsätter strejken mot Tesla - med en strejkkassa på mer än 10 miljarder i ryggen. Den ska klara en lång konflikt med många strejkande.

www.dn.se

Well. I thought this deservers a meme.

 

[ggr]

Keep it up and this thread will get closed too, then you won’t have anywhere to have your tantrum.

I don't know about the other mods, but I am on strike!

(That's actually a real comment. After the Cybertruk event, pretty much every moderation guideline in existence was ignored. I woke up jetlagged from a trip to Australia, to find about 30 pages of posts in the wrong places, or that shouldn't have existed. I couldn't even keep up with the incoming, let alone process old posts. So...)

 

[2daMoon]

I don't know about the other mods, but I am on strike!

(That's actually a real comment. After the Cybertruk event, pretty much every moderation guideline in existence was ignored. I woke up jetlagged from a trip to Australia, to find about 30 pages of posts in the wrong places, or that shouldn't have existed. I couldn't even keep up with the incoming, let alone process old posts. So...)

Once you pick up all the pieces and assemble them in such a way that the other mods concur, would that mean you have reached Collective Agreement and the strike ends? 's
/S

 

[RSpanner]

There are good unions and bad unions. The longshoremen is quite notorious, while the Disney unions and SAG-AFTRA are highly functional. I don't detest unions, but I don't think unions are necessary by default.

Yes, bow down to corporations at all times, all situations and do it often.

 

[bpjod]

That isn't an argument. You are like a pre-schooler who holds his ears shut whenever he hears something that doesn't fit into his perception of reality. Nowadays that seems to be good enough to be elected President in the US, though. Apparently some random dude on X is supposed to be more trustworthy than the NY Times.

Do you have proof that NYT doesn't lie, because they have a history of lying about Tesla: A Most Peculiar Test Drive. What was their response to being caught in a lie? Well rather than firing the lying reporter who got caught in a lie, they promoted him to the editorial board. Their articles ever since 2013 have had a predominantly very negative take on Tesla.

So yes, those of us with a long history of following Tesla believe that the NYT has no integrity whatsoever, especially when it comes to reporting on Tesla.

 

[bpjod]

An article posted yesterday, which I quoted from, had an IF Metal representative stating that Tesla employees get better pay than the union would suggest. Both in that article, and in another public statement from an IF Metal official, their repeated concern is that if Tesla doesn't voluntarily sign the agreement, other businesses might not as well. This alone doesn't seem to be a very compelling argument for Tesla to comply, in and of itself if it changes nothing for Tesla and helps IF Metall.

Caving to bullies' demands is never a good long-term choice, whether they be unions, organized crime, or terrorists.

Anyone who thinks Elon is likely to fold when bullied or blackmailed clearly doesn't know who they're dealing with! I suggest they read a couple biographies then regroup and try a different tactic.

 

[MP3Mike]

Interesting information, if true:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1732144454218219981

I think adding board members would require a shareholder vote... No way that is going to happen...

 

[ggr]

Interesting information, if true:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1732144454218219981

I think adding board members would require a shareholder vote... No way that is going to happen...

Would be board members of the Swedish subsidiary, not of Tesla Inc. Still not something that Elon would easily acquiesce to.

 

[mars_or_bust]

Where, exactly, would a negotiation over this expect to begin?

The word you are looking for is extortion (and not negotiation).

 

[2daMoon]

The word you are looking for is extortion (and not negotiation).

I was saving it for later...

 

[Just a Reader]

I didn’t say anyone was more trustworthy than another. Indeed, I’ve been very clear I don’t believe anyone.

“I read an article in” - pick your media source paid to say what their advertisers tell them to say - doesn’t fly on any day except Sundays between 2:00 am and 2:00:01 am.

And as this grade schooler always says; takes one to know one.

Keep it up and this thread will get closed too, then you won’t have anywhere to have your tantrum.

Really? Which mysterious advertiser told the NY Times to diss the health industry?

 

[Just a Reader]

Anyone who thinks Elon is likely to fold when bullied or blackmailed clearly doesn't know who they're dealing with! I suggest they read a couple biographies then regroup and try a different tactic.

Musk is absolutely quiet when it comes to free speech issues in China. Musk is only brave when it's all about kicking down.

 

[Todd Burch]

I just read an interesting piece in the NY Times that doctors and pharmacists in the US are increasingly joining unions, as they consider them to be necessary to survive in a health sector that is dominated by large companies now. So much for unions being a thing of the past.
I also recall the Silicon Valley scandal when tech companies were found out to have entered into an illegal agreement not to poach each other's employees. Apparently tech companies aren't above some good old racketeering to keep the employees down. Obviously they got away with nothing more than a slap on the wrist.
Somehow people in the US seem to believe that unions are the problem. The fall of Boeing's commercial jet business from global leader to the shame of the 737 Max most certainly wasn't caused by the unions.

Care to share your firsthand knowledge on this subject?

I’ll give you mine.

I’ve worked in an industry and for my company for 14 years. Boeing, Spirit Aerosystems, Airbus, Northrup Grumman, NASA, and other major aerospace manufacturers are our direct customers.

I’ve taught classes to employees at the Boeing facilities in Everett, WA and Charleston, VA.

I’ve worked on the factory floor with employees at Spirit Aerosystems in Kinston, SC and Tulsa, OK.

Designed, personally installed, and tested systems for the A350 at the Airbus factory outside Chester, UK.

Unions absolutely without a doubt are a contributing factor toward increased cost and lowered productivity.

At one facility, there was a mandatory 10 minute smoke break every hour. Yes. Every hour, 50 minutes after the hour, I was forced to stop teaching and wait ten minutes as a horn blew, all factory workers walked to the nearest door, and went outside. Puff puff, then horn again and back to work on the hour. Right there, a union policy encouraging lung cancer for its members.

While working a manufacturing issue, I once sat at a station on the floor waiting 30+ minutes for a union-authorized forklift operator to move something out of our way. There were several workers there trained to operate a forklift and it would have taken us 2 minutes to do ourselves. But only certain union members could drive forklifts, so we had to wait. It wasn’t an issue of worker health or safety that wasted that time. It was the union ensuring that nobody could take that forklift operator’s job, regardless of the expense or lost production time.

How about shipbuilding? I used to work at Northrop Grumman in Newport News, VA where we built nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers. Plenty on union BS there too. Want to unbolt one flange from another? Gotta wait for the union pipefitter to operate the socket wrench, even though the mechanical engineer who literally designed the flange is highly qualified in the operation of socket wrenches.

Lots of stories like that. And I lived it. And saw a lot of it.

But I’m sure the New York Times reporter who doesn’t know how the A350 wings are QA inspected, or how we join 747 wings to the fuselage by premeasuring the assemblies and pre-manufacturing the shims via virtual fitup has more accurate, firsthand real-world knowledge on how unions affect things. His next story was probably about condom distribution in third-world countries, of which I’m sure he dispensed information as an informed expert.

Or maybe a guy who just reads over in Germany has a better idea and I should trust the information he read in a paper?