Test drive of X with unexpected conclusion

[Brass Guy]

Not that I'll be putting a deposit down on a new S or X in the foreseeable future, but I'm also a little disappointed by the bundling of options. Not only the cold weather package, but the interior options as well. I might expect that for the Model 3 production, not the S or X.
I much more enjoyed the configurator when I ordered. You could mix and match any of the available interior options back then.

I still have not driven an AWD Tesla yet. That said, regeneration in my RWD S fades out at about 4 mph; but depending on how steep the slope is it may not be able to maintain that speed without braking.
If you're still considering Model X, I suggest another test drive. Ask if you can find a slope similar to what you would normally experience, and ensure regeneration is set to "Standard"; there is also a "Low" setting.

I have used the Tesla app to remote heat my interior before leaving work, where it is not plugged in. If it is freezing out, it will use a few miles of range to heat it; but really nothing substantial.
Good luck with your decision.

 

[WannabeOwner]

We both found the autopilot to be something we did not want at this stage for our typical motoring requirements

As well as the "stay in lane" and "Slow down if following a slower vehicle (TACC)", there is also nudge-forwards in bumper-to-bumper traffic, which may be of benefit to a town driver. From my own experience AP makes a huge reduction to tiredness on longer motorway-type journeys. The bumper-to-bumper thing can reduce frustration. Cruise Control is fixed-speed, NOT traffic aware if you don't have AP. Currently AP2 is not as refined as AP1, but software updates will take care of that - but AP2 capability is "late" compared to promises that were made when it was launched (that over-confidence on timescales for delivery of ambition is typical for Tesla)

foul weather capability of our existing vehicle

Not going to easily beat a Disco for foul weather, although I strongly recommend Winter Tyres if you have tricky winter driving. I'm in Suffolk, so perilous Winter weather is a once-a-decade thing for me, but we fit Winter Tyres to all our cars - its like night and day driving in Winter, even on cold wet roads, let alone Ice or Snow. I drove up the Alps on packed snow in a Seat Alhambra (with winter tyres) following a mate in a Disco with chains, and even though he was using Snow Mode I had a much better time of it. Always had Winter Tyres since then ...

The AWD will enable you to "go", but doesn't do much for "stopping", but Winter Tyres and AWD is a fantastic combination (not just Tesla, although the weight of the Tesla helps too)

A question for seasoned users is how fast does the screen clear when arriving back late on a freezing cold night to a station or airport car park where the vehicle is frozen solid?

I'm disappointed, and kick myself, if I get to the car having forgotten to pre-condition it (from the Phone APP). Get up from table in restaurant / train pulling into station / etc. then by the time I get to the car its toasty warm (or nicely cooled in Summer). Great benefit of not having to start the engine (and wait for it to warm up) before using Heat/AC

the car descends at 4 mph with no driver input

Regen cuts out at 8MPH, so won't help with a 4 MPH decent, but I wonder if you actually need to descend that slowly, or if that's because that's what descent-mode does? A 4MPH descent sounds like a perilously steep slope to me and something that would need an off-road type vehicle - although I would be very cautious on a steep icy hill that terminated in a right-angle bend!!

If you could take the hill at, say, 10 MPH then I reckon Regen would take care of it. One pedal driving (with a bit of familiarisation) allows adjusting foot to the speed of travel, which on a downhill slope may in effect be a braking-effect from the regen. Lifting off completely provides significant Regen braking effect. There are two modes available for Regen so its possible that your Demo was set to "light" rather than "normal". Unless I'm in a tearing hurry I only usually use the brakes for some twit doing something unexpected, slowing for corners and junctions etc. is doable predominantly on Regen. Saves some brake-ware of course (and not much else required for service - I do 25,000 miles p.a. and only service once a year)

On the remote heating option does this take much out of the battery under freezing conditions?

Heating (or Cooling) and range is definitely something to consider. In an ICE you have "free-heat" from the engine, in EV you have to use battery, so whether you pre-heat the car before you get to it, or get in and then turn the heater on, its going to use some Battery. If the car is plugged into the mains (e.g. overnight charging, and you are leaving for work on a cold morning) it will use "shore power" for that pre-conditioning. The heating of the car is not a huge energy use, although if you are tight for range to destination on a cold winter's day you might turn the heater off to eke out some miles ... never had to do that in an ICE!

 

[WTO1]

The Tesla stores exist mainly for educational purposes. All Tesla stores are owned by the company and they don't have any inventory to sell. Store employees are told to create a no-pressure environment. Elon's idea was that you would visit a Tesla store to learn about the car, not to be sold the car.

The Leeds depot was awash with mostly new stock with a row of well loaded unregistered Xs facing the public road all with a sales sheet detailing the specification and price for immediate delivery. I guess they would be reasonably keen to sell those to reduce the stock in hand. The one good feature of their totally full parking area was that one could see virtually every colour and interior combination - which is when one realises there aren't many! Agree the experience was definitely in a no pressure environment and our contact was keen to take notes of my personal views after I advised that we would not proceed immediately.

 

[jelloslug]

The Leeds depot was awash with mostly new stock with a row of well loaded unregistered Xs facing the public road all with a sales sheet detailing the specification and price for immediate delivery. I guess they would be reasonably keen to sell those to reduce the stock in hand. The one good feature of their totally full parking area was that one could see virtually every colour and interior combination - which is when one realises there aren't many! Agree the experience was definitely in a no pressure environment and our contact was keen to take notes of my personal views after I advised that we would not proceed immediately.

The bundling of options and the lack of interior (and exterior) color choices is just a fact of life for American and Japanese cars unfortunately. Even something as simple as a Fiat 500 offer 15 paint colors and 7 interior colors/materials in a multitude of configurations.

 

[WTO1]

As well as the "stay in lane" and "Slow down if following a slower vehicle (TACC)", there is also nudge-forwards in bumper-to-bumper traffic, which may be of benefit to a town driver. From my own experience AP makes a huge reduction to tiredness on longer motorway-type journeys. The bumper-to-bumper thing can reduce frustration. Cruise Control is fixed-speed, NOT traffic aware if you don't have AP. Currently AP2 is not as refined as AP1, but software updates will take care of that - but AP2 capability is "late" compared to promises that were made when it was launched (that over-confidence on timescales for delivery of ambition is typical for Tesla)



Not going to easily beat a Disco for foul weather, although I strongly recommend Winter Tyres if you have tricky winter driving. I'm in Suffolk, so perilous Winter weather is a once-a-decade thing for me, but we fit Winter Tyres to all our cars - its like night and day driving in Winter, even on cold wet roads, let alone Ice or Snow. I drove up the Alps on packed snow in a Seat Alhambra (with winter tyres) following a mate in a Disco with chains, and even though he was using Snow Mode I had a much better time of it. Always had Winter Tyres since then ...

The AWD will enable you to "go", but doesn't do much for "stopping", but Winter Tyres and AWD is a fantastic combination (not just Tesla, although the weight of the Tesla helps too)



I'm disappointed, and kick myself, if I get to the car having forgotten to pre-condition it (from the Phone APP). Get up from table in restaurant / train pulling into station / etc. then by the time I get to the car its toasty warm (or nicely cooled in Summer). Great benefit of not having to start the engine (and wait for it to warm up) before using Heat/AC



Regen cuts out at 8MPH, so won't help with a 4 MPH decent, but I wonder if you actually need to descend that slowly, or if that's because that's what descent-mode does? A 4MPH descent sounds like a perilously steep slope to me and something that would need an off-road type vehicle - although I would be very cautious on a steep icy hill that terminated in a right-angle bend!!

If you could take the hill at, say, 10 MPH then I reckon Regen would take care of it. One pedal driving (with a bit of familiarisation) allows adjusting foot to the speed of travel, which on a downhill slope may in effect be a braking-effect from the regen. Lifting off completely provides significant Regen braking effect. There are two modes available for Regen so its possible that your Demo was set to "light" rather than "normal". Unless I'm in a tearing hurry I only usually use the brakes for some twit doing something unexpected, slowing for corners and junctions etc. is doable predominantly on Regen. Saves some brake-ware of course (and not much else required for service - I do 25,000 miles p.a. and only service once a year)



Heating (or Cooling) and range is definitely something to consider. In an ICE you have "free-heat" from the engine, in EV you have to use battery, so whether you pre-heat the car before you get to it, or get in and then turn the heater on, its going to use some Battery. If the car is plugged into the mains (e.g. overnight charging, and you are leaving for work on a cold morning) it will use "shore power" for that pre-conditioning. The heating of the car is not a huge energy use, although if you are tight for range to destination on a cold winter's day you might turn the heater off to eke out some miles ... never had to do that in an ICE!

Many thanks for the detailed response which makes interesting and stimulating reading. The short road outside our house in North Yorkshire is steep enough to stop FWD/RWD cars climbing in icy conditions without winter tyres. Going down on ice one has to be careful since there is a T junction with a main road - which keeps one focused even at 4 mph!

I get the point about the brakes and quickly worked out from the test drive that one should get good results from the pads/discs

 

[WannabeOwner]

which keeps one focused even at 4 mph!

I wonder if you could do that sort of hill descent in a Tesla in Reverse? You can flick Forward/Reverse at slow speed, i.e. using reverse to slow, and then reverse, forward motion - no need to use brake at all when doing an N-point turn/manoeuvre in a car park - so maybe could come down the hill in reverse and use that to slow down?

I believe the Bolt is able to reverse the motor to bring the car to complete stop (whereas Tesla stops regen at 8?MPH and uses brakes below that if on AP).

 

[Cyclone]

I wonder if you could do that sort of hill descent in a Tesla in Reverse? You can flick Forward/Reverse at slow speed, i.e. using reverse to slow, and then reverse, forward motion - no need to use brake at all when doing an N-point turn/manoeuvre in a car park - so maybe could come down the hill in reverse and use that to slow down?

I believe the Bolt is able to reverse the motor to bring the car to complete stop (whereas Tesla stops regen at 8?MPH and uses brakes below that if on AP).

You can. I had to do that at an AirBnB in Atlanta, Georgia, USA that has an extremely steep winding driveway. I normally back in and the first time I went down it the brakes couldn't keep me at a low speed and I quickly had to put it in Drive and give it some go to control my descent. The remaining times pulling in there I simply rolled over the crest and backed my car down in Drive so that I could go down at 2-3 mph. You should be able to then keep an X in reverse and use that to help control speed going forward downhill if you didn't want to ride the brakes (or they couldn't keep up).

Note - if I wanted to stop completely I could have used the brakes. However, I couldn't control the brakes finely to go down the driveway slowly. I don't want you think that the brakes aren't sufficient to stop the car. This also may not be an issue at all nowadays because all new Teslas have electromechanical brake boosters vs. a pneumatic pump like my 2013.

 

[Peteski]

I think a Disco and Model X are about as about far apart as you can get in this class! One is a traditional SUV with super plush ride and soggy handling, the other a futuristic EV with fairly sporty/firm ride and handling. The only things they have in common are 4 wheels and 7 seats. Maybe stating the obvious doesn't really help in this discussion, but I thought I'd mention it anyway and it shows that you can't have everything in one single vehicle. Also the fact that you also appear to be considering a Model S maybe shows that you perhaps don't need a traditional SUV? In which case, that allows a lot more options to consider outside of LR and Tesla.

 

[WTO1]

I think a Disco and Model X are about as about far apart as you can get in this class! One is a traditional SUV with super plush ride and soggy handling, the other a futuristic EV with fairly sporty/firm ride and handling. The only things they have in common are 4 wheels and 7 seats. Maybe stating the obvious doesn't really help in this discussion, but I thought I'd mention it anyway and it shows that you can't have everything in one single vehicle. Also the fact that you also appear to be considering a Model S maybe shows that you perhaps don't need a traditional SUV? In which case, that allows a lot more options to consider outside of LR and Tesla.

Quite agree. The seven seater requirement no longer applies as most of the family are now residing down under and our only off road demands are National Trust car parks! Probably the ideal replacement would be to downsize to a Y but that won't be around for some years. With the S one loses the high ride position (although got quite a surprise when I pulled the up button on an S as to how far the seat went upwards!). We have been watching other developments such as the i3 but it was only a walk through the Victoria Quarter in Leeds where there was an X on display that sparked our recent activity.

 

[Peteski]

The i3 would be serious downsizing! Actually I quite like the i3, but it's really more of a town runabout than something you would want to be travelling long distance in.

Have you considered some of the latest hybrids like the new Volvo XC60 T8? I drove its big brother XC90 T8 back-top-back against the Model X recently and it's a lovely vehicle. Ultimately I preferred the Tesla, but the Volvo is a very nice refined ride - perhaps more in line with your Discovery than the X. I haven't driven the slightly more compact XC60 T8, but I have driven a normal petrol engined version of the new XC60 and that is very nice too. Again more plush than sporty, but very nicely executed.

 

[WTO1]

The i3 would be serious downsizing! Actually I quite like the i3, but it's really more of a town runabout than something you would want to be travelling long distance in.

Have you considered some of the latest hybrids like the new Volvo XC60 T8? I drove its big brother XC90 T8 back-top-back against the Model X recently and it's a lovely vehicle. Ultimately I preferred the Tesla, but the Volvo is a very nice refined ride - perhaps more in line with your Discovery than the X. I haven't driven the slightly more compact XC60 T8, but I have driven a normal petrol engined version of the new XC60 and that is very nice too. Again more plush than sporty, but very nicely executed.

The i3 option was if we replaced my wife's A Class not my Disco as a first step into an EV!

I have looked at various other options but Tesla has the edge on a number of factors from our viewpoint - particularly when considering the free supercharging.(although there might be a few more interesting options in a few years time if Dyson achieves his objective) .Still on a learning curve on Teslas thanks to the various entries herein and other Tesla sites. Surprised to discover that automatic windscreen wipers are not yet standard! Having used Mercedes standard kit in the Tesla cabin for the window/mirror controls and gear selector I would have thought it was cost effective to also borrow the indicator stalk/screen wiper package including the automatic wiper module which works perfectly well on my wife's A Class!

 

[WannabeOwner]

automatic windscreen wipers are not yet standard!

I think (but not sure) that its just a (delayed shipping ...) software issue on HW2 cars? and thus will come in a future software upgrade.

I have them on my HW1 car. That said they are far from good enough, but about the same as most other ICE cars I have driven in the last decade, which if it is just software is disappointing as it could easily be improved based on real world data collection - i.e. if a driver presses the single-wipe button use that as a data point for when auto wipers SHOULD have wiped..

 

[Cyclone]

Yes, rain-sensing wipers are standard, but severely delayed since AP2 came out. Even my pre-AP car has it. In AP2, the infrared sensor for it was integrated into the AutoPilot hardware and that has been their limiting factor. Sad that they haven't finished that part of the software yet after a year.

 

[Peteski]

The i3 option was if we replaced my wife's A Class not my Disco as a first step into an EV!

I have looked at various other options but Tesla has the edge on a number of factors from our viewpoint - particularly when considering the free supercharging.(although there might be a few more interesting options in a few years time if Dyson achieves his objective) .Still on a learning curve on Teslas thanks to the various entries herein and other Tesla sites. Surprised to discover that automatic windscreen wipers are not yet standard! Having used Mercedes standard kit in the Tesla cabin for the window/mirror controls and gear selector I would have thought it was cost effective to also borrow the indicator stalk/screen wiper package including the automatic wiper module which works perfectly well on my wife's A Class!

Ah that makes sense now regarding the i3!

I don't see Dyson ever competing in this market, but who knows! There will certainly be plenty of competition from mainstream automotive manufacturers in a few years, but I think Tesla are well ahead of the game today. We've got our Model X on order now and very happy with the choice (75D). There are a few quirks for sure, but Tesla seem to have made good progress on quality and software development over the last year. I certainly wouldn't have considered an early Model X with some of the issues reported (mainly around shoddy build quality).

 

[dhanson865]

There's a trade off:

If I set my car to conserve energy and it goes to deep sleep after a few days of parking, it takes about a minute to wake up.

You seem to have been confused by the UK use of screen as a shorthand for windscreen which is what we Americans would call a windshield.

The OP wasn't talking about the LCD. He was talking about Ice on the outside of the car on the glass and mirrors.

From Windshield - Wikipedia

The term windshield is used generally throughout North America. The term windscreen is the usual term in the British Isles and Australasia for all vehicles. In the US windscreen refers to the mesh or foam placed over a microphone to minimize wind noise, while a windshield refers to the front window of a car. In the UK, the terms are reversed, although generally, the foam screen is referred to as a microphone shield, and not a windshield.

 

[WannabeOwner]

I don't see Dyson ever competing in this market

I take the other view - I don't see the established marques like VW, BMW, etc. succeeding in this market - in the same way as other pivotal changes in recent times like the Ocean Liner companies not successfully changing to the Airline business, Kodak and so on. In a decade buying a car from Apple, Google ... Dyson even ... seems more likely to me. So long as I have a completely self driving car by the time I am the grandparents' age, and ought not to still be driving, that's good enough for me

 

[Peteski]

I take the other view - I don't see the established marques like VW, BMW, etc. succeeding in this market - in the same way as other pivotal changes in recent times like the Ocean Liner companies not successfully changing to the Airline business, Kodak and so on. In a decade buying a car from Apple, Google ... Dyson even ... seems more likely to me. So long as I have a completely self driving car by the time I am the grandparents' age, and ought not to still be driving, that's good enough for me

Wow! So you think the likes of VAG,BMW,Mercedes etc, etc, will simply disappear over the next decade? I very much doubt it! For sure the rise of EV has shook up the traditional automotive world and allowed the likes of Tesla to prosper as a niche supplier, but the mainstream industry will adapt to the new technology over the next decade. For example Panasonic are already gearing up to supply batteries to various manufacturers as well as Tesla. Tesla may well become a big player too with their head start, but Dyson really?

 

[WannabeOwner]

the mainstream industry will adapt to the new technology over the next decade

FWIW here's my thoughts on the subject:

They aren't putting any effort, directly, into Battery or Charging infrastructure; the later would have been easy by just saying "Adopt the Tesla Supercharger connection" rather than waiting from some IEEE-type Committee to design the mother-of-all-connectors and then for some 3rd Party to decide that the market was big enough, and coming soon enough, to roll out the infrastructure. That to my mind is the same fundamental attitude that has sunk the incumbent organisations at previous quantum-change events.

Fining VW for the whole electric infrastructure of your country is a good solution, but of course in Europe politicians have found no fault with VW, so missed that trick.

Panasonic et al may very well beef up their battery production, but a heck of a lot of batteries are required. There will be lots of large Automobile companies all wanting batteries, from 2 or 3 suppliers, and I can't see that ending well. Particularly if the Auto companies are sitting on the fence about what type of battery they want (Customer saying "We want the latest, greatest, one of course" makes it hard for supplier to say "I'll spend $X billion on a new factory")

Can't remember what the numbers are, but I think it is about 50 Gigafactories in order to produce enough batteries for 100% of New Cars. VW are talking about building a Gigafactory by when? 2025 I think? Far too little, too late - and goodness knows if they can afford that AND the fines !

Existing Auto Company has gone about this saying "Hopefully it will go away" and "we'll do the minimum for compliance" and "we basically need this to be as close to the existing as possible" to be compatible with existing supplier, and delivery, chain - that causes all sorts of conflicts - e.g. a Dealer Network which, currently, makes most of its money from Service rather than Sales - and service work for EV is a fraction of an ICE. They are also in the business of "acquire most of my parts from 3rd party" - but there isn't much in the way of 3rd parties yet, so they'll all be scrabbling for the crumbs that are available.

Actually I'm surprised that the likes of Jaguar are engineering stuff from scratch. I posed this before and someone said to me that EV is a small-volume car makers dream - easy to put together. But it seems to me that someone like Jaguar knocking on Tesla's door and saying "We'd like to buy Battery and Motor, and a few other bits" please, and then putting their gorgeous coach-building on it, would be a lot easier, and less risk, than "Give me a sheet of white paper"; those limited-production Marques have traditionally been sexy, in part, because of quick 0-60 times, but all EVs are going to be quicker than equivalent ICE, hence why I think they would be better to start with the market leader, rather than Lets Invent Our Own.

Big Corp has all sorts of lethargic behaviour built in. For a quantum change they need to behave differently - as IBM did with the PC: start a maverick group within the company, at the annoyance of everyone else with entrenched positions, reporting directly to the CEO, stuff some Wizz Kids in there, but provide all the benefit of Big Corp - e.g.money, marketing and appropriate brains ...

...or just buy Tesla - Lock Stock and Barrel

Time will tell, of course, and it may well turn out that I'm talking out of my wrong-end - it wouldn't be the first time

 

[DeanFielding]

I have spent a lot of time in the discovery, range rover and my Model X. Personally I am a total convert. The screen does clear quickly, it is an electric heater so is faster than waiting for an engine to heat up (although I know most land rovers have heated screen). I live in Sheffield so if you ever fancy poping in to have a second look/test ride in my Model X you'd be welcome. I have the 20" rims (really not a fan of big rims) and a 75D model X. The best thing about the ride in the model X is I found you really don't get that 'wallowing' effect you get in the disco or range rover due to the Teslas low centre of gravity (particularly for rear passnegers). it also goes bloody well for a big SUV around corners. Also love the performance and instant throttle response. I think most of the features you didn't like on the test drive are features that can be adjusted. I could really never see myself going for a range rover now, having done 6,000 miles in our model X Absolutely love it.
like I said if youre nearby you'd be welcome to pop round for a cuppa to re evaluate. just PM me if you can - I'm fairly new to this!

 

[Peteski]

Time will tell, of course, and it may well turn out that I'm talking out of my wrong-end - it wouldn't be the first time

I agree with many of your points, but I do think you are underestimating some of the big players here. Tesla have the advantage of no ICE legacy to worry about, but if they are going to take over the entire motor industry (along with Dyson, Apple, Google etc) then production has to ramp up to the levels of current automotive giants and that is a very big ask compared to those already producing at those volume levels. On the other hand traditional automotive companies have to ramp up their EV development accordingly. Maybe they will eventually start to team up with each other, but predicting the future is never that easy!