The M3 terrifies BMW

[Red Sage]

I was told the newer i3 with bigger battery (not out yet?) has 114 mi range so effectively 40% increase in range.

I heard rumors of such, but saw no mention of it on the EPA website. That's why I went with what has been released thus far. Probably means the 1.9 gallon fuel tank in the i3 REX increased to 2.6 gallons as well.

 

[Red Sage]

I think it was raised above, but did anyone else find it funny that in both commercials, the drivers unplugged and drove away with the ICE engine running? Does it mean that the plug-in range is only 10 metres or that the electrical system is so weak that the ICE engine is necessary to get the thing moving? Either way, it is like they pointing out that there is a fundamental design flaw right in the commercial.

Who knows, maybe this was actually Tesla's first ad

Perhaps 'all of the above'...? But, I think it more likely there was no sound at all... And, that in post production, someone decided it would 'sound better' to add a Foley effect for a running motor for the sake of effect.

Remember how the folks at '60 Minutes' thought there was something wrong with the B-Roll that they had acquired from Tesla Motors of the Model S, so they added sound to those sections of their broadcast? Here is a parody of that situation...

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Actually, I think Toyota canceled that car because they brought out the Mirai. The Mirai garners them more points on ZEV Credits per unit sold, so they ditched the plug-in Prius for 2016, which rather sucked in prior years anyway. I doubt anyone will miss the 'plug-in for extra miles' car, which only had 11 miles EPA rated range on fully electric -- which might have been only 9 or 10 miles 'in the Real World' -- even worse than the Honda Accord Plug-In Hybrid at 13 miles.

It's a little worse than that. The PiP was actually only rated at 6 miles (EPA) of fully-electric range, and 11 miles of blend electric miles. Still not the full story, the Prius could only travel up to 62 mph on electric only, and there was no way to keep the gas engine from coming on if, for instance, you accelerated beyond the threshold that was allowed for EV only driving.

The PiP was complete garbage as a PHEV.

 

[Odebek]

No. He wasn't 'off' by $20,000 in income. Go back to his post. He said that the Model S 60 was affordable at a $120,000 per year income. And your own calculator confirmed that. You are the one that is 'off' because you lowered the amount of annual income to $100,000 and forgot what he wrote before.

Thanks for noticing... Looks like @EaglesPDX was backing so far up on his position that he fell over...

 

[Saghost]

It's a little worse than that. The PiP was actually only rated at 6 miles (EPA) of fully-electric range, and 11 miles of blend electric miles. Still not the full story, the Prius could only travel up to 62 mph on electric only, and there was no way to keep the gas engine from coming on if, for instance, you accelerated beyond the threshold that was allowed for EV only driving.

The PiP was complete garbage as a PHEV.

The 6 miles is completely arbitrary, driven by the other aspect you noted at the end - at 6 miles into the EPA test set they hit an acceleration that exceeds the threshold and forces the engine on. Since it's caused by the acceleration, there's nothing significant about the six miles - that acceleration could be at mile 11 - or before you finish mile 1.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Sure, but unfortunately that's the rub when using standardized testing. Either way the Prius has limitations that other vehicles don't have...and is one of the reasons it's a terrible PHEV.

 

[SageBrush]

Sure, but unfortunately that's the rub when using standardized testing. Either way the Prius has limitations that other vehicles don't have...and is one of the reasons it's a terrible PHEV.

All plug-ins have use cases where the ICE kicks in even though battery charge remains. It really does seem fair to not muddle that fact with electric range. For the Gen1 Prius plug-in it was ~ 11 miles and that is set to double in Gen2.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

All plug-ins have use cases where the ICE kicks in even though battery charge remains. It really does seem fair to not muddle that fact with electric range.

Like I said, all PHEVs are measured on the same scale. Toyota's limitations were either a design choice, or an oversight. It's pretty important for potential customers to understand the limitations. If the PiP doesn't have as much AER under conditions that other vehicles do, that's important to note.

If you've got 10 mile commute to work, and any of that is at freeway speed...I'd think an owner would be disappointed to find out that it wasn't doable with the PiP. We're not talking about edge case scenarios here. You literally can't drive the PiP (in electric mode) at the speed limit at one of the most common Hwy speeds in the country.

 

[SageBrush]

Like I said, all PHEVs are measured on the same scale. Toyota's limitations were either a design choice, or an oversight. It's pretty important for potential customers to understand the limitations. If the PiP doesn't have as much AER under conditions that other vehicles do, that's important to note.

If you've got 10 mile commute to work, and any of that is at freeway speed...I'd think an owner would be disappointed to find out that it wasn't doable with the PiP. We're not talking about edge case scenarios here. You literally can't drive the PiP (in electric mode) at the speed limit at one of the most common Hwy speeds in the country.

By all means note the limitation, just do not confuse it with battery range. The problem with your example is that the person who travels say 22 miles with a Gen1 Prius, highway or otherwise, will find that 50% of the miles were electric if driven within an EPA cycle.

 

[Saghost]

Like I said, all PHEVs are measured on the same scale. Toyota's limitations were either a design choice, or an oversight. It's pretty important for potential customers to understand the limitations. If the PiP doesn't have as much AER under conditions that other vehicles do, that's important to note.

It's probably a little off topic for today, but these kinds of details amuse and fascinate me. It's a design choice - driven by Prius Hybrid history and keeping common parts for cost reasons.

You see, the "second generation" Prius (the second US generation, the iconic 2004-2009 version that started selling 4k per month almost from the beginning,) made some interesting choices to get costs down and efficiency up. One of those choices was to run the motors at 650V - with a 200V battery pack.

The HSD controller in a gen2 Prius has a 20 kW DC-DC converter that sits between the battery pack and the motors. Since the car really uses the motors to control the engine and keep it in the best range (and mostly passing power from one motor to the other directly,) this made a lot of sense - smaller, cheaper, more efficient motors in exchange for a DC-DC conversion for all the power going to/from the battery pack.

Of course, it also set a maximum power limit that could be drawn from the pack - but since the pack was ~1.5 kWh of NIMh, that limit was about as high as you'd want anyway.

The next generation made some major refinements to HSD, including a second planetary set - but kept the same isolated architecture - and this is the platform Toyota had to work from when they went to build the PiP.

So what would you do? Use a different set of motors, meaning redesigning the HSD transmission assembly and making a unique one just for the low volume PiP? Build a 650V battery pack, when no one else is and the safety standards may not be there? Accept lower motor power from the low voltage at the motors?

Toyota took the other option - they beefed up the DC-DC converter some (I think the PiP can manage 30 kW on electric?) and kept the architecture the same. For a company that's building hundreds of normal Priuses for every PiP, it makes economic sense.

I believe that's also the reason for the 4.4 kWh battery pack - no point in making it much larger when you can't draw much power from it at a time - so instead they made the PiP the best normal Prius ever (better gas mileage than a conventional Prius of the same generation when on gas) with some limited plug in capacity (just enough to qualify for federal rebates and that coveted car pool lane sticker in CA.

It's one of those situations where the background and resources you already have lead you to a solution you'd never have chosen from a clean sheet. The Volt has bits like that, too, if mostly less limiting. Something over 80% of the Voltec transmission comes from the 2MT70 FWD two mode hybrid that was cancelled in the bankruptcy by part number. This brilliant adaptation led to the easy linking of the engine to drive the wheels at freeway speeds that has been the topic of so much angst here and in the media.

 

[SageBrush]

It's one of those situations where the background and resources you already have lead you to a solution you'd never have chosen from a clean sheet. The Volt has bits like that, too, if mostly less limiting. Something over 80% of the Voltec transmission comes from the 2MT70 FWD two mode hybrid that was cancelled in the bankruptcy by part number. This brilliant adaptation led to the easy linking of the engine to drive the wheels at freeway speeds that has been the topic of so much angst here and in the media.

Insightful post -- thanks.

I'll just point out that the Volt accepted a compromise in order to raise the limit of battery power to the wheels: considerably lower efficiency overall than the Prius. Or maybe Volt was forced to that solution due to the Prius patent portfolio and 2-mode base. I tend to think the latter but I lack the expertise to be sure.

 

[Saghost]

Insightful post -- thanks.

I'll just point out that the Volt accepted a compromise in order to raise the limit of battery power to the wheels: considerably lower efficiency overall than the Prius. Or maybe Volt was forced to that solution due to the Prius patent portfolio and 2-mode base. I tend to think the latter but I lack the expertise to be sure.

I don't know that I have enough information to speak to that intelligently - I know a lot about Volt efficiency from the SAE papers, but only the bits about Prius efficiency that are easily found on the web.

In situations like this, you have to be very careful defining your terms. From the context of your post, I'm thinking that when you say overall efficiency, you mean gas mileage in CS mode or possibly Wh/mile in CD mode.

That brings in a bunch of factors that aren't directly related to getting power from the battery to the ground - the Volt is a much heavier car with mildly worse aerodynamics, so the loads are higher and if you transplanted an HSD drivetrain from a Prius directly into a Volt it'd do noticeably worse than a Prius.

One of the more interesting random bits is suspension toe in. I've read that the Prius calls for zero tow in - which gives a few percent lower loads through reduced tire friction - at the cost of being uncomfortable in winds and poor initial bite in handling. GM didn't do that.

The Volt doesn't have an Atkinson engine, so it loses a few MPG (though it does have very long variable valve timing and can somewhat emulate an Atkinson at lower effective CR in lower loads we're told.) While I've read a lot about the engines (and the Prius is ~8% more efficient than the Volt at converting fuel into useful work at their respective bests, depending on the generation,) I have never found a good article about Prius electrical efficiency.

The EPA figure for the PiP is 290 Wh per mile + .2 gallons per 100 miles, against the Volt's 350-360 (depending on year) in first generation - but that gas makes a direct comparison difficult. .2 gallons of gas is 6.74 kWh of chemical energy by EPA definition. Using the Prius's peak of 37% thermal efficiency in that generation, that's up to ~2.5 kWh per 100 miles of mechanical energy (equivalent to somewhat more than that electrically, since you'd lose some power converting it to mechanical - 80% efficient? 85?)

This would put the PiP at somewhere in the ~320 Wh/mile range - and it's almost 20% lighter and more aerodynamic than the Volt, so the loads should be lower as mentioned above. That tends to suggest to me that it is probably slightly less efficient at getting electricity to the ground - using rough numbers in absence of real test data on the electrical side alone (which is what I'd expect with the DC-DC converter added in) - but because it's a lighter, sleeker car it goes further on a gallon of gas or a kWh of electricity.

Did that make sense or am I way off in left field somewhere? Of course, part of the extra weight is the ~435 pound battery pack - but this generation of GM platforms also runs on the heavy side for their class (design decision for NVH and crash reasons, I've read.)

 

[jerry33]

Like I said, all PHEVs are measured on the same scale. Toyota's limitations were either a design choice, or an oversight. It's pretty important for potential customers to understand the limitations. If the PiP doesn't have as much AER under conditions that other vehicles do, that's important to note.

I believe it to be a design choice. To me, it's pretty obvious that the PiP was designed to overcome some of the annoyances of the regular Prius:

1. The engine starts after a few seconds, even if you are just doing a driveway shuffle.

2. If you're in bad traffic, the battery is soon used up and the gas engine cycles--especially if the A/C is in use.

3. On short steep hills (~300 m) the gas engine comes on rather than just powering on by electricity.

4. Even a short two mile trip to the grocery store runs the gas engine.

The PiP, when driven properly, overcomes these annoyances. If there is still some battery left towards the end of the trip, then you can run on all electric to use up the charge. Pretending the PiP is a Volt, where you run on battery until it's gone and then switch to gas is not an efficient way to drive the PiP.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

By all means note the limitation, just do not confuse it with battery range. The problem with your example is that the person who travels say 22 miles with a Gen1 Prius, highway or otherwise, will find that 50% of the miles were electric if driven within an EPA cycle.

That's fair.

 

[SΞXY P100D]

The BMW i3 is a terrifying example of a compromised compliance car.

I'm terrified of the BMW i3 alright... terrified from sticker shock!

 

[SageBrush]

The EPA figure for the PiP is 290 Wh per mile + .2 gallons per 100 miles, against the Volt's 350-360 (depending on year) in first generation - but that gas makes a direct comparison difficult. .2 gallons of gas is 6.74 kWh of chemical energy by EPA definition. Using the Prius's peak of 37% thermal efficiency in that generation, that's up to ~2.5 kWh per 100 miles of mechanical energy (equivalent to somewhat more than that electrically, since you'd lose some power converting it to mechanical - 80% efficient? 85?)

I went through a very similar analysis, except I presumed the 0.2 gallons of petrol was worth 10 miles based on the ICE section of the test. IIRC, I came up with ~ a 15% efficiency difference and figured about half of that was weight and aero advantages.

 

[Bangor Bob]

I'm terrified of the BMW i3 alright... terrified from sticker shock!

On the upside, it'll never rust out. Although it might delaminate someday from UV degradation. You won't find a cheaper in-production car with a similar proportion of carbon fiber structure. (Although Alfa is trying.)

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

All plug-ins have use cases where the ICE kicks in even though battery charge remains. It really does seem fair to not muddle that fact with electric range. For the Gen1 Prius plug-in it was ~ 11 miles and that is set to double in Gen2.

The Prius' blended range was 11 miles with 0.02gal of gasoline, so it was like going 10 miles EV plus 1 mile on gasoline at 50mpg. It also meant that the gasoline was used to help the motor avoid the hard bits. But the Prime should be able to complete the entire test on electricity and have a 22 mile AER instead of blended range.

And, er, BMW should indeed be concerned about the Model 3, since it'd be in the same price range.

 

[Pollux]

The key message is the use of a regular socket that allows them easily to get extra bits of charge. One shot needed. A J1772 would be unfamiliar and would suggest something special and alien.

Sorry for late followup to this message but I'm quite taken with @ItsNotAboutTheMoney's insight about the ad's careful attention to unplugging the BMW, and the order of first showing the regular 110V/15A plug being disconnected and then showing the car's plug being disconnected. A subtle point... but one that will be picked up by nearly every viewer on an almost unconscious level. "Uh-huh, she unplugs the plug, then unplugs the car..." Versus what would to that same viewer look like a science-fiction connector (the J1772) and imply that the car's use of an electric plug doesn't even look familiar.

I had to go back to review the ad after I saw this comment. Damn! Nicely done by the crafters of the ad, and nicely caught by @ItsNotAboutTheMoney.

[Update: as pointed out by @TexasEV, the car-side connector is an actual J1772. I definitely stand corrected. But the key insight is to first show the regular wall plug and only then the car-side connector. The viewer won't care about the car-side connector if first shown the regular wall plug. Contrast that presentation with showing, say, a NEMA 14-50 on one side and a J1772 on the other, or even a Tesla HPWC or Supercharger.]

Alan

 

[SmartElectric]

I guess BMW prefers the way it is for its driving dynamics. A larger battery would make it heavier and change the vehicle's dynamics.

The battery pack is higher up in the chassis, and biased to the rear of the car. At least the BMW i3 got the formula right, battery low in the car. BMW 330e is fail all the way in terms of performance and dynamics.