The public does not understand EV range

[gtae07]

The best range is achieved when closest to home driving in city traffic and very near your primary charging location. They don't understand that range is only important for long distance highway travel.

The prospective ev buyer can save thousands of dollars by forgoing 350+ range ev's, if the vehicle is to be used primarily as a commuter. For the few times they travel cross country, there will be a few more charging stops which should be easier to rationalize given the saving of $10.000.00 plus dollars.

People don't buy cars for their 90% mission, they buy them for their 5% mission. Most cars (even sedans and compacts ) rarely drive around with more than one seat filled, so why don't we all drive Smartcars and just rent whenever we need something bigger? Same goes for airplanes, houses, table settings, bicycles, and more; "average" and "maximum" are not the same for a reason. You may not use that extra capability often, but it sure is nice having it--and the peace of mind it can bring might be well worth the price, especially if you have to be ready to travel regionally at a moment's notice, and charging stations are still few and far betwen compared to gas stations. Or if you can use your vehicle as a backup power source for your house.

That longer range is worth it to me--so much of our driving around here is interstate, even around town (it's often easier and faster to hop on the interstate just to go from one side of town to the other). I can envision some scenarios where we'd run a 250 EPA mile car out of juice just running around locally, and that's before I factor in things like not charging to 100% to preserve the battery, or pulling possibly pulling a utility trailer around sometimes. Forget road trips to see family--we could get there with three stops, but there's nowhere to charge once we get there, except the 120V outlet. More range would at least buy us more "cushion" when we arrive and give us more reserves to get back to a fast charger on the way home.

Basically, longer range is attractive to us specifically because of how much "off nominal" driving we do. Even on regular commute days, very little of it is single occupant on nice roads in mild weather at sedate speeds. I'd happily trade gee-whiz features, panoramic glass, and maybe even some 0-60 performance for better usable range. Honestly, that Silverado WT is looking mighty attractive at present; we'll see what the final specs and equipmnent are.

Unfortunately nobody publishes an expected range with four adults, some bags, really hot/cold weather with the climate control running full blast, with precipitation and a headwind on the interstate--on a battery with 5 years' degredation. Instead we get the range for a brand-new car in ideal weather with a lightweight solo driver going 45.

I'm all for EV ownership (though the pricing is still absurd) and assuming my 17 year old truck can survive another two or three years, I'd rather not buy another ICE car again. But let's not go kidding ourselves and twisting limitations into somehow being "good for us". People don't want a car that's going to be a pain in the rear every time they need to do something outside the ordinary; EV diehards might be ok with that but the average Joe/Jane won't. Ironically, people will put up with annoyances if they're a daily occurrence (e.g. having to stop for gas every few days, vs. the convenience of plugging in at home), but they take a dim view of such inconveniences on special occasions (like frequent charging stops on their vacation road trip, exacerbated by poor weather). IWe put up with a 45 minute traffic delay going to work, but delay our flight by 45 minutes and it drives us nuts. Your boss never remembers all your good work, only your one f***up. you get the idea.

 

[qdeathstar]

The vast majority of the general public have no experience with the ev and the factors effecting range. They think of EV range as they would with an ICE vehicle. They assume the more highway driving the better the mileage. The public has no idea that just the opposite is true with EVs given the advances in regenerative braking and its' absence at continuous highway speeds. They also are unaware that Tesla's range estimates are primarily for city driving. The best range is achieved when closest to home driving in city traffic and very near your primary charging location. They don't understand that range is only important for long distance highway travel.

The prospective ev buyer can save thousands of dollars by forgoing 350+ range ev's, if the vehicle is to be used primarily as a commuter. For the few times they travel cross country, there will be a few more charging stops which should be easier to rationalize given the saving of $10.000.00 plus dollars.

Even people who are familiar with EVs fantasize about having an engorged battery.

 

[Fourdoor]

The vast majority of the general public have no experience with the ev and the factors effecting range. They think of EV range as they would with an ICE vehicle. They assume the more highway driving the better the mileage. The public has no idea that just the opposite is true with EVs given the advances in regenerative braking and its' absence at continuous highway speeds. They also are unaware that Tesla's range estimates are primarily for city driving. The best range is achieved when closest to home driving in city traffic and very near your primary charging location. They don't understand that range is only important for long distance highway travel.

The prospective ev buyer can save thousands of dollars by forgoing 350+ range ev's, if the vehicle is to be used primarily as a commuter. For the few times they travel cross country, there will be a few more charging stops which should be easier to rationalize given the saving of $10.000.00 plus dollars.

My daily commute would be just fine in a cheap used first generation Leaf even if it had multiple bars of battery capacity gone. HeII, I could pick up a $5,000 or less used EV that would suit my local use needs (pre supply chain used car prices... not sure on current pricing). The problem with these "previous generation" EV's (including the longer range ones like the Chevy Bolt) is charging speeds that are so slow they make them "marginal" for long range road trips. I am able to road trip the Bolt to virtually anywhere in the country (and I did prior to purchasing the MYP), but it is much faster to do so in the MYP due to charging speed. The Bolt maxes out at 55 KW and only maintains that up to around 50% SOC... when the MYP dips down to 55 KW you are leaving late, you should have left long before then if you are trying to maximize speed over the ground.

From an economic perspective the perfect vehicle mix is an old previous generation non-Tesla for local driving, and a new Generation non-Tesla (800V battery pack) or high current capable Tesla (Y, 3, or newer S / newer X) for road trips. The short range (cheap) EV is to reduce wear and tear on the expensive vehicle. This vehicle mix actually makes the idea of a lease on the fast charging long range EV make sense since you will not be paying mileage penalties if you do your commuting (and other local driving) in the short range EV.

Keith

 

[EVer Hopeful]

Any reason you would not charge to 100%?

it gets slower the closer you get to 100

 

[LoudMusic]

There's been discussion in the past about battery swapping on road trips. And there were products a long time ago of towable generators for EVs.

But what about a car platform that has a modular battery cavity and you purchase the vehicle with something like a 50kwh module, but can rent additional modules if you're going on a road trip? Maybe the car holds up to four of these modules. The shop would have a service bay that could remove the blank modules from the underside of the car and install the additional battery packs.

The car would go from ~150 mile range to ~550 mile range. Like back in the day when people would carry extra canisters of gasoline in their trunk.

This seems like it could work for something like minivans and SUVs. The family car that takes the kids to school everyday and runs errands around town, but twice a year goes on a 1000 mile road trip to grandmas house. A 500+ mile range would mean leaving the house with a full charge, make one long stop for lunch and charge the car, then back on the road to grandma's house where you plug in and slow charge for three or four days before making the return trip.

Instead of paying tens of thousands of dollars for that extra battery capacity that you rarely use, you pay a few hundred bucks a year and rent it, or have some kind of subscription or service plan. When they're not in use the battery modules are plugged in at the service center helping to "balance the grid".

This seems like something a company like Toyota could do, in partnership with Subaru and whoever else they share tech with. Maybe have three different chassis that all accept the same physical size/shape battery modules. A two-module, a three-module, and a four-module model. That would work for sedans, trucks, SUVs, and minivans. The cars would be sold with one module installed to keep initial cost down, and the dealerships would have a stack of spare modules ready to go. That would also be a good reassurance to people about battery tech, and give the dealerships a reason to stick around, which I'm sure they're all really nervous about.

 

[IROAR]

There's been discussion in the past about battery swapping on road trips. And there were products a long time ago of towable generators for EVs.

But what about a car platform that has a modular battery cavity and you purchase the vehicle with something like a 50kwh module, but can rent additional modules if you're going on a road trip? Maybe the car holds up to four of these modules. The shop would have a service bay that could remove the blank modules from the underside of the car and install the additional battery packs.

The car would go from ~150 mile range to ~550 mile range. Like back in the day when people would carry extra canisters of gasoline in their trunk.

This seems like it could work for something like minivans and SUVs. The family car that takes the kids to school everyday and runs errands around town, but twice a year goes on a 1000 mile road trip to grandmas house. A 500+ mile range would mean leaving the house with a full charge, make one long stop for lunch and charge the car, then back on the road to grandma's house where you plug in and slow charge for three or four days before making the return trip.

Instead of paying tens of thousands of dollars for that extra battery capacity that you rarely use, you pay a few hundred bucks a year and rent it, or have some kind of subscription or service plan. When they're not in use the battery modules are plugged in at the service center helping to "balance the grid".

This seems like something a company like Toyota could do, in partnership with Subaru and whoever else they share tech with. Maybe have three different chassis that all accept the same physical size/shape battery modules. A two-module, a three-module, and a four-module model. That would work for sedans, trucks, SUVs, and minivans. The cars would be sold with one module installed to keep initial cost down, and the dealerships would have a stack of spare modules ready to go. That would also be a good reassurance to people about battery tech, and give the dealerships a reason to stick around, which I'm sure they're all really nervous about.

Unless you return battery where you started, it would require a fleet like u-haul for one way or round trips. I doubt this would fly given the mindset of our citizenry; K.I.S.S.

 

[LoudMusic]

Unless you return battery where you started, it would require a fleet like u-haul for one way or round trips. I doubt this would fly given the mindset of our citizenry; K.I.S.S.

They could have a few delivery trucks that many battery modules could be fitted to in order to make a one-way non-stop trip from a primary destination location to a primary starting location. And it could be fully automated.

 

[charlesoris]

The concept of swappable batteries, such as an Israeli start-up's concept, would drastically reduce travel time in EV. EV's nearly empty battery would be removed by robots and replaced with a fully charged one in 5 minutes. Similar to ICE refueling at a gas station. The downside of it is that all EV mfgs would have to agree to some set of standards.

 

[bobby g]

I would be primarily using it for daily commute, weekend getaways (150-200miles) and 4-7 yearly long distance drives (600+ miles).

I’m worried about the long distance drives. While there are Tesla chargers around some of those stops have a gap of 200miles. From what I’ve read in the forums winter range and 80% charge seems like 200 mile would be above the upper limit of this.

Makes me think that in the winter, high wind days, rainy days, bad weather days I should take my ice vehicle. It’s like for long distance unless it’s near perfect weather don’t take an ev?

Agree with OP that for most people, smaller battery and price tag make lots of sense. Two hundred miles works for most people most of the time.

I have several longer drives I take regularly 100, 250 and 350. All are one way numbers. The only one that doesn't require a charge is the 100 and now I set lower for that and plug into a free L2 while they're. The middle one has an L3 stop enroute for peace of mind and L2 before and after. The longest is one SC so each way and a Chadey 35-50 upon arrival and before leaving. This with a M3 LR RWD. I have little fear of taking her anywhere in any conditions.

I try and remember "Double the speed takes 4 times the energy" but it is way hard to keep 80 mph semi's from running over you in AZ

 

[EVer Hopeful]

The concept of swappable batteries . . .

very much like swappable propane cylinders

 

[tangible1]

I too was unaware of how much environmental conditions, region, and speed affect range, especially in a crossover. I was prepared for a drop in range from 300 miles to 230-240ish in “normal for me” conditions. However we routinely get about 200 miles on a full charge. I swear our MY has to walk to and from school uphill in the snow every day… 70-80mph speed limits, 20-30mph wind that always seems to be working against us, and it’s always either 30deg/f or 120deg/f. Our lifetime wh/mi for our MYP is around 340, while our model 3LR is 298 in the same conditions. 40 mile drives at 400+wh/mi are not uncommon in the Y.

It makes sense if you think about it. The MYP is basically a MX p75d. it’s bigger than the model 3 with the same size battery, and speed has a much bigger effect on efficiency due to its size. Its a bit of an adjustment for us, but we do fine.

PS: Mr Tesla, please install more superchargers in West TX and SE NM! I’m tired of having to plug my EV into an oil production company’s central tank battery service outlet! I do love the irony though, sometimes my Tesla is fossil fuel dependent!

The good news is Tesla is now HQ'd in Austin, and chargers in TX will get some priority.

The bad news is TX has been a low-uptake EV state. Relatively low percentage of EV ownership.
Might change, but won't be like CA or the NE anytime soon.
And it's Fossil Fuel Central.

 

[Hydrocarbon302]

The good news is Tesla is now HQ'd in Austin, and chargers in TX will get some priority.

The bad news is TX has been a low-uptake EV state. Relatively low percentage of EV ownership.
Might change, but won't be like CA or the NE anytime soon.
And it's Fossil Fuel Central.

We are seeing more and more EVs running around the patch. There is at least 6 in our small oil town not including ours.

We are still in the old days of EV infrastructure here, in that we are still filling gaps in the network, not necessarily alleviating congestion.

Off topic:
The oil field is actually a major electrified equipment adopter. If anyone out here gives me sugar about owning a EV, I ask them how many engine drive rod pumps they still have and if they’re better than the electric pumps? Same with gas compressors. Most are engine driven V-16s that are fueled by the NG they push. The crème though, is electrified compression, for a lot of the same reasons EVs are better than ICE. Less maintenance and downtime, but they’re more expensive initially. The drilling rigs and fracs are now tied into the power grid, instead of diesel generators. It’s wild.

 

[tangible1]

We are seeing more and more EVs running around the patch. There is at least 6 in our small oil town not including ours.

We are still in the old days of EV infrastructure here, in that we are still filling gaps in the network, not necessarily alleviating congestion.

Off topic:
The oil field is actually a major electrified equipment adopter. If anyone out here gives me sugar about owning a EV, I ask them how many engine drive rod pumps they still have and if they’re better than the electric pumps? Same with gas compressors. Most are engine driven V-16s that are fueled by the NG they push. The crème though, is electrified compression, for a lot of the same reasons EVs are better than ICE. Less maintenance and downtime, but they’re more expensive initially. The drilling rigs and fracs are now tied into the power grid, instead of diesel generators. It’s wild.

No wonder the Big Freeze was such a big deal then.

Texas still has to figure out the SuperCharger / EV chicken & egg conundrum. Tesla knows how to do it though.
I have relatives in the Houston area and the SC network right now is paltry.

 

[LoudMusic]

No wonder the Big Freeze was such a big deal then.

Texas still has to figure out the SuperCharger / EV chicken & egg conundrum. Tesla knows how to do it though.
I have relatives in the Houston area and the SC network right now is paltry.

Texas has Supercharger coverage. The only area with population that doesn't have coverage is Lubbock. It's no where near California's SC count, but I wouldn't call it paltry.

Furthermore I still don't understand why anyone would rely on Supercharging for their daily driving. They were originally meant for long range driving. If you can't charge at home overnight I personally recommend not buying an EV.

And before I moved away from Austin in 2018 I was seeing multiple Model Ses and Model Xes every day. There were obviously a lot fewer Supercharger sites back then.

 

[metier]

The concept of swappable batteries, such as an Israeli start-up's concept, would drastically reduce travel time in EV. EV's nearly empty battery would be removed by robots and replaced with a fully charged one in 5 minutes. Similar to ICE refueling at a gas station. The downside of it is that all EV mfgs would have to agree to some set of standards.

So you buy a brand new car with brand new battery pack are you going to want to swap that out for who knows how old of a battery pack? Also how would the battery pack warranty work?

 

[LoudMusic]

So you buy a brand new car with brand new battery pack are you going to want to swap that out for who knows how old of a battery pack? Also how would the battery pack warranty work?

When Tesla was talking about doing this a few years ago it was all discussed in terms of an out-and-back trip and you'd return the rented pack back where you got it and pick up your original pack. But that's not how I road trip, and I suspect I'm not in the minority. Loops are much preferred because you get to see more.

That's why I like the idea of having a small pack with expansion area for long trips such that you get the capacity up to 500+ miles of range and only need one long charge around lunch time to continue an all day trip. Swapping batteries seems like a great way to wear out connectors.

But to answer your question, you wouldn't buy a battery with the car. You'd buy a car and get issued a battery. Along with range anxiety the general public has a fear of battery failure and replacement cost. This would also negate that.

 

[Fourdoor]

So you buy a brand new car with brand new battery pack are you going to want to swap that out for who knows how old of a battery pack? Also how would the battery pack warranty work?

Some areas that used swappable battery packs, the car owner didn't own the battery pack... it was leased to them for a monthly fee. This allowed for lower initial purchase price of the car since you were not buying one of the most expensive components and it did away with warranty and degradation concerns.

Keith

 

[DanTeSX]

We are seeing more and more EVs running around the patch. There is at least 6 in our small oil town not including ours.

We are still in the old days of EV infrastructure here, in that we are still filling gaps in the network, not necessarily alleviating congestion.

Off topic:
The oil field is actually a major electrified equipment adopter. If anyone out here gives me sugar about owning a EV, I ask them how many engine drive rod pumps they still have and if they’re better than the electric pumps? Same with gas compressors. Most are engine driven V-16s that are fueled by the NG they push. The crème though, is electrified compression, for a lot of the same reasons EVs are better than ICE. Less maintenance and downtime, but they’re more expensive initially. The drilling rigs and fracs are now tied into the power grid, instead of diesel generators. It’s wild.

Yup.

EVs (and electric anything) only have outsourced internal combustion….

Also, these things will sell great in Ten Gallon Texas. Texans are furiously patriotic about products made in Texas (especially vehicles).

 

[DanTeSX]

There's been discussion in the past about battery swapping on road trips. And there were products a long time ago of towable generators for EVs.

But what about a car platform that has a modular battery cavity and you purchase the vehicle with something like a 50kwh module, but can rent additional modules if you're going on a road trip? Maybe the car holds up to four of these modules. The shop would have a service bay that could remove the blank modules from the underside of the car and install the additional battery packs.

The car would go from ~150 mile range to ~550 mile range. Like back in the day when people would carry extra canisters of gasoline in their trunk.

This seems like it could work for something like minivans and SUVs. The family car that takes the kids to school everyday and runs errands around town, but twice a year goes on a 1000 mile road trip to grandmas house. A 500+ mile range would mean leaving the house with a full charge, make one long stop for lunch and charge the car, then back on the road to grandma's house where you plug in and slow charge for three or four days before making the return trip.

Instead of paying tens of thousands of dollars for that extra battery capacity that you rarely use, you pay a few hundred bucks a year and rent it, or have some kind of subscription or service plan. When they're not in use the battery modules are plugged in at the service center helping to "balance the grid".

This seems like something a company like Toyota could do, in partnership with Subaru and whoever else they share tech with. Maybe have three different chassis that all accept the same physical size/shape battery modules. A two-module, a three-module, and a four-module model. That would work for sedans, trucks, SUVs, and minivans. The cars would be sold with one module installed to keep initial cost down, and the dealerships would have a stack of spare modules ready to go. That would also be a good reassurance to people about battery tech, and give the dealerships a reason to stick around, which I'm sure they're all really nervous about.

We really just need a larger rapid charging solution infrastructure (I.e. superchargers). It’s too bad the Buck Break Better bill did not pass. We really need to have the supercharger network highly visible to potential future owners who sit on the fence. You’ll never overcome range anxiety in many without them being reassured of redundant chargers on their normal routes.

Much much simpler.

This also makes the cars easier to assemble.

 

[Fourdoor]

Yup.

EVs (and electric anything) only have outsourced internal combustion….

Also, these things will sell great in Ten Gallon Texas. Texans are furiously patriotic about products made in Texas (especially vehicles).

I also see the F-150 lightning and the Chevy Silverado EV being big sellers in Texas when they become available... not so sure about the cybertruck.

Keith