The public does not understand EV range

[Fourdoor]

All right, thanks for the clarity. Yep, they are there to sell cars and saying "hey, by the way, you might only get half of that announced range" wouldn't help. The truth is, it wouldn't be true either. Some people around me are saying they are getting the EPA. They must be driving very gently At best I do 80% of rated in summer and 50-60% in Quebec winter. But I understand why.

As said, I wholeheartedly agree that more information is required. I do see a lot of people that wouldn't listen to it in any case and would end up frustrated, but at least if the information would be more easily obtainable and it would help a good proportion of people.

Since I've had my car I've made it an obligation to myself to properly inform anyone that's interested. I try not to paint it as rainbows and unicorns but instead make it reasonable. That means I don't paint the darkest, worst picture either. But the real information is nuanced and needs a lot of detail, something not many people are willing to put up with.

The range rating for EV's needs to be revamped completely, trying to do it like ICE vehicles was a mistake to begin with. I don't see this ever happening, but in an ideal world we would get a three season two drive cycle rating with specified exterior temperature and specified climate control settings. The three seasons winter / inclement (cold temperatures), spring and fall (moderate temperatures) and summer (warm temperatures) with a city drive cycle for each season and a steady high speed drive cycle for highway range for each season.

My first problem with Tesla is they game the system as hard as possible to get the longest EPA range possible. When a Porsche Taycan with 240 miles of EPA range can travel 297 miles at 70 mph and a 2020 Tesla MY LR with an EPA range of 316 miles goes 276 miles at 70 mph you know something is rotten in Denmark. On paper the Porsche is a joke with 76 miles less range than the 2020 Tesla MY LR... but in the real world it performs significantly better (21 miles more range).

My main problem is that this "get the best fantasy range on paper we can" mindset hurts Tesla more than it helps when people compare real world range of EV's.

The statement that "Tesla has the best range and fastest charging" used to be true, on paper AND in the real world. That is no longer the case. Back when it was true people would say "it doesn't match EPA range but it is still better than a Leaf or Bolt" Now with all the competition that isn't good enough. When a manufacturer provides MORE range than the EPA estimate it impresses people, when they provide less range than the EPA estimate people see it as (at best) exaggeration and excuses.

Keith

 

[mangrove79]

Yeah, but let me play devil's advocate. What are the conditions for "winter range"? For some people in the US it would be around 32F with nothing on the ground and all season tires. For me the average should probably be closer to 0F, with snow tires, snow often on the ground, and days at -20F... Even that wouldn't tell the whole story. It's an easy problem to describe, it's not that easy to solve.

And for some (like me) it's 65F and my range at 45 mph would likely exceed the EPA estimate during winter, LOL. Heck, my wh/mi average this winter is 223 over 4K miles so far, and that's 50/50 local and highway. Yeah, so exactly, winter conditions are different for everyone and there is no one size (number) fits all.

 

[Darmie]

Prius has been known to have better mileage in the city than highway. Public known.

I would believe more people know about an EV range that we think.

 

[OCJeff]

One thing that really helps put the BEV's efficiency in context compared to an ICE vehicle on the freeway is this:

When the EPA devised MPGe in the early 2000s, the government agency calculated that 33.7 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity is comparable to a gallon of fuel in terms of its energy content.

So this means that a LRMY that is assumed to have a 78KW battery has the same amount of energy as 2.31 gallons of gasoline. I find Amazing that anything could travel over 250 miles on just 2.31 gallons of gasoline (let alone 330 at 70 MPH and that weighs 4500 lbs). BEV's are extremely efficient, but without braking, and regen around town you lose out on a ton of that efficiency and just consume the energy much more quickly.

 

[tangible1]

I think the point is that when it comes to misleading the customer when people say "at least with Tesla you don't have to deal with an evil dealership" they don't seem to realize that this just means you have to deal with the evil parent company. Tesla as a company is just as deceptive as the sleaziest used car salesman on the planet.

Keith

Going a little deep on pretty shallow evidence.
At worst, Tesla has been experiencing growing pains.
At best, Elon tends to get a bit optimistic.

Not excuses but defining them as sleezy is a bit much

 

[EVer Hopeful]

I was just pointing out that the stereotype that dealerships lie and because Tesla doesn't have dealerships everything will be rainbows and butterflies is BS.

Your point has some validity, but perhaps overlooks the main thing that everything at a stealership is up for negotiation ... and it's a negotiation that twill not benefit the customer

Tesla's delivery (for me) was horrible, I have no experience of their service, the car is great, but lacks many features that should be standard by now, but it's hard to not like having a fixed price as a starting point. And let's be honest, anyone who thinks the range is going to be any more accurate than the mpg claims on ICE vehicles ... well I heard that bridges are for sale somewhere

 

[boulder.dude]

Yeah, but let me play devil's advocate. What are the conditions for "winter range"? For some people in the US it would be around 32F with nothing on the ground and all season tires. For me the average should probably be closer to 0F, with snow tires, snow often on the ground, and days at -20F... Even that wouldn't tell the whole story. It's an easy problem to describe, it's not that easy to solve.

Just pick an arbitrary temperature, say 20F, and go with it. Don’t let it perfect be the enemy of good.

 

[ThomasD]

Has GM or Ford done any towing tests with their electric trucks

 

[soumak]

Honestly there are so many YouTube videos of Tesla cars the only unformed consumer is one who doesn’t want to learn.

 

[DanDi58]

Honestly there are so many YouTube videos of Tesla cars the only unformed consumer is one who doesn’t want to learn.

Yet they show up here and on various FB groups almost every day.....

 

[soumak]

Yet they show up here and on various FB groups almost every day.....

no problem with them showing up here or the fb group for more info. but the basics of range is out there on youtube. there are tests out there at 60mph, 70mph, 80mph. people driving on the autobahn in germany, people taking road trips with the tesla. people doing camping, ect. to me doesn't seem like someone should be spending 60k without doing some prior research.

 

[Fourdoor]

Your point has some validity, but perhaps overlooks the main thing that everything at a stealership is up for negotiation ... and it's a negotiation that twill not benefit the customer

Tesla's delivery (for me) was horrible, I have no experience of their service, the car is great, but lacks many features that should be standard by now, but it's hard to not like having a fixed price as a starting point. And let's be honest, anyone who thinks the range is going to be any more accurate than the mpg claims on ICE vehicles ... well I heard that bridges are for sale somewhere

If you know how to bargain negotiation definitely benefits the customer. You need to buy a car (from a dealership) on the last day of the month, or nearly the last day. If it is raining on the last day of the month that is a great day to buy (end of month sales bonus for salesman combined with less customers). You need to have patience to get a good deal and inhuman levels of patience to get a great deal, if you get anxious or in a hurry you will be taken advantage of. Never get excited about the car, be prepared to walk away if they don't give you the deal you want. I have never paid more than MSRP, and most times I have paid significantly under MSRP on new cars, but if I go car shopping I anticipate spending all day (past closing time) at the dealership. Always arrange your own financing before you go shopping. Don't tell the salesman you have already arranged financing... they figure they can make up any loses on the deal you negotiate via financing shenanigans. I HATE fixed pricing. Now, dealerships make up for a low profit on cars sold to people like me by totally screwing over people who are not good at bargaining.

My delivery experience was a potential nightmare, so I told them "cancel the order, it is worth the $100 deposit to wash my hands of this deal"... the sales rep who had been very unreasonable up to that point kicked it up to her manager and the situation was resolved to my satisfaction.

Keith

 

[Fourdoor]

Just pick an arbitrary temperature, say 20F, and go with it. Don’t let it perfect be the enemy of good.

And if you do three seasons of range (summer, winter, and spring/fall) with specified temperature ranges, if you live in Alaska use the spring/fall rating for your summer driving estimates, if you live in Florida use the spring / fall rating for our winter driving estimates... as long as the temperature ranges are specified we can make it work.

Keith

 

[EVer Hopeful]

If you know how to bargain negotiation definitely benefits the customer. You need to buy a car (from a dealership) on the last day of the month, or nearly the last day. If it is raining on the last day of the month that is a great day to buy (end of month sales bonus for salesman combined with less customers). You need to have patience to get a good deal and inhuman levels of patience to get a great deal, if you get anxious or in a hurry you will be taken advantage of. Never get excited about the car, be prepared to walk away if they don't give you the deal you want. I have never paid more than MSRP, and most times I have paid significantly under MSRP on new cars, but if I go car shopping I anticipate spending all day (past closing time) at the dealership. Always arrange your own financing before you go shopping. Don't tell the salesman you have already arranged financing... they figure they can make up any loses on the deal you negotiate via financing shenanigans. I HATE fixed pricing. Now, dealerships make up for a low profit on cars sold to people like me by totally screwing over people who are not good at bargaining.

My delivery experience was a potential nightmare, so I told them "cancel the order, it is worth the $100 deposit to wash my hands of this deal"... the sales rep who had been very unreasonable up to that point kicked it up to her manager and the situation was resolved to my satisfaction.

Keith

Again, fair points and I'm not going to argue ... horses for courses and all that

but . . . (you knew that was coming right?)

. . . you said "last day of the month" and "You need to have patience" and "inhuman levels of patience" and "spending all day" - (and then there's also my addition of "take a looooooong hot bath and flagellate yourself with birch twigs when you get home, and burn all the clothes you wore while you're at it"). Those are some fairly high hurdles and you'll never know if you could have done better. I suspect you actually like this process and the feeling of achievement, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not for me. I hate the places, and I've only done it twice

I did it once by phone across state lines and it was reasonably painless, though I was a a little anxious during the days I was waiting for the car to appear

 

[AEbright]

Trip from Wichita to Emporia KS. 85 miles. Temperature in low twenties. No strong winds. Started with 280 mile charge. Arrived with 80 miles remaining. Tesla Y driving 70-75 mph. Do I have a lemon?

 

[jcanoe]

Trip from Wichita to Emporia KS. 85 miles. Temperature in low twenties. No strong winds. Started with 280 mile charge. Arrived with 80 miles remaining. Tesla Y driving 70-75 mph. Do I have a lemon?

Is this a Performance Model Y with the 21" wheels or the Long Range Model Y with the 19" or 20" wheels (there is at least a 10% difference in efficiency.)

What is the battery % state of charge when the Tesla shows 280 miles or what is the range estimate the Tesla shows when charged to 100%?

Were the roads clear and dry? (Wet roads will increase consumption by up to 15%.)

Did you precondition while plugged in before driving, if so for how long?

What temperature did you set using the Tesla's Climate Control?

What was your average speed? (There is almost a 10% increase in consumption when you drive 75 MPH versus 70.)

Use A Better Route Planner (ABRP), available on your phone or on the web to plan your trip.

 

[TomServo]

no problem with them showing up here or the fb group for more info. but the basics of range is out there on youtube. there are tests out there at 60mph, 70mph, 80mph. people driving on the autobahn in germany, people taking road trips with the tesla. people doing camping, ect. to me doesn't seem like someone should be spending 60k without doing some prior research.

Look at my TMC Join Date. I owned a 2012 Volt when I got the BEV bug after joining some Tesla websites and watched tons of videos especially from Bjorn In Norway and all his tests, info and escapades. I knew more about Tesla/EV ownership issues than even some some new owners being SHOCKED by wild range fluctuations and what causes that and how to mitigate it.

 

[Hydrocarbon302]

Beat this...

19x8.5" TSVs with Bridgestone All-Seasons at 45PSI

The 12 mph wind was definitely not at the cars back.

 

[AEbright]

Is this a Performance Model Y with the 21" wheels or the Long Range Model Y with the 19" or 20" wheels (there is at least a 10% difference in efficiency.)

What is the battery % state of charge when the Tesla shows 280 miles or what is the range estimate the Tesla shows when charged to 100%?

Were the roads clear and dry? (Wet roads will increase consumption by up to 15%.)

Did you precondition while plugged in before driving, if so for how long?

What temperature did you set using the Tesla's Climate Control?

What was your average speed? (There is almost a 10% increase in consumption when you drive 75 MPH versus 70.)

Use A Better Route Planner (ABRP), available on your phone or on the web to plan your trip.

Is this a Performance Model Y with the 21" wheels or the Long Range Model Y with the 19" or 20" wheels (there is at least a 10% difference in efficiency.)

What is the battery % state of charge when the Tesla shows 280 miles or what is the range estimate the Tesla shows when charged to 100%?

Were the roads clear and dry? (Wet roads will increase consumption by up to 15%.)

Did you precondition while plugged in before driving, if so for how long?

What temperature did you set using the Tesla's Climate Control?

What was your average speed? (There is almost a 10% increase in consumption when you drive 75 MPH versus 70.)

Use A Better Route Planner (ABRP), available on your phone or on the web to plan your trip.

Model Y long range AWD with 20” wheels. Battery was at 100% charge. Dry road. No precondition, but began with navigation to Emporia supercharger which started preconditioning immediately. Cabin temp 73 degrees. Avg speed 72-74.

 

[jcanoe]

Model Y long range AWD with 20” wheels. Battery was at 100% charge. Dry road. No precondition, but began with navigation to Emporia supercharger which started preconditioning immediately. Cabin temp 73 degrees. Avg speed 72-74.

For next time, try preconditioning while plugged in for ~20 minutes before starting out. I would skip the Emporia Supercharger as the outbound destination. (Preconditioning for over an hour while heading to the Emporia Supercharger definitely impacted your efficiency and range.) You might need to stop at the Emporia Supercharger for ~10 minutes as you start the return trip.

Tire pressure (not noted), if low, will negatively impact your range; keep tires inflated to the recommended 42 PSI (take tire pressure readings when the tires are cold, i.e. the Tesla has been driven less than 1/2 mile) or a few pounds more.

Even a light headwind will negatively impact your efficiency.

Use the seat heaters, steering wheel heater more and keep the cabin temperature a few degrees lower, i.e 70-71F. Set the HVAC to recirculate the cabin air unless/until the windows start to fog, then turn off recirculate setting for a while until the windows clear. Set the Tesla adaptive cruise control to 70 MPH.