I may be wrong but didn't I hear some news about JB starting a recycle company with another Tesla exec? If true it could be another Tesla hedge against resource monoplies and pricing that might be brought onboard a few years down the road. I can't think of anyone more qualified to do this who likely would have access to huge amounts of used batteries and probably Jeff Dahn.
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Good talk by Kurt Kelty on the GF, especially around the 20 minute mark where he talks about resources. Short summary, the cost of Nickel is more of a cost driver than Cobalt, Lithium, or Graphite. Not concerned about Cobalt.
Listening to more of this -- he got asked whether Tesla would go into the mining business. (Good question!)
Kelty said "Never say never", and said they'd do it if (and only if) it would cut their cost per kwh. He pointed out that mining is very capital-intensive and said they weren't in a position to throw several billion into a mine right now. (Implying that this might change in the future.)
He says the on-site recycling at the Gigafactory is going to be comprehensive.
They seem to have dropped their all-North-American supply chain plan. It's been downgraded to "all things being equal" and they'll take cheaper sources from abroad, particularly Africa. (Notice, Musk dropping a promise again... for those who think he always does what he says he will...)
They are, however, pushing heavily for renewable-electricity-powered mines, apparently, and preferentially choosing suppliers who do that. So they're sticking to the mission!
Kelty said "Never say never", and said they'd do it if (and only if) it would cut their cost per kwh. He pointed out that mining is very capital-intensive and said they weren't in a position to throw several billion into a mine right now. (Implying that this might change in the future.)
He says the on-site recycling at the Gigafactory is going to be comprehensive.
They seem to have dropped their all-North-American supply chain plan. It's been downgraded to "all things being equal" and they'll take cheaper sources from abroad, particularly Africa. (Notice, Musk dropping a promise again... for those who think he always does what he says he will...)
They are, however, pushing heavily for renewable-electricity-powered mines, apparently, and preferentially choosing suppliers who do that. So they're sticking to the mission!
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Albermarle (rockwood holdings) is a major
Sociedad Química y Minera de Chile (SQM) is a major
FMC Corporation is a major
There are hundreds of juniors. Some that have been linked to Tesla are Western Lithium,Pure Energy Minerals,Lithium Corporation,Lithium Australia NL among others.
Matt Bohlsen talking about a lithium and cobalt boom in 2018 Lithium Boom II And Cobalt Boom II Are Coming Soon | Seeking Alpha
Matt likes ALB and LACDF, I also own those for a few years
I follow Matt he seams fairly knowledgeable
I follow Matt he seams fairly knowledgeable
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Petrolithium: The Biggest Energy Breakthrough Since Fracking | OilPrice.com
With Tesla looking to “absorb the entire world’s lithium production”, in the words of Elon Musk, and seeking “American lithium sources first”, the ability to extract lucrative lithium from petroleum brine is a major coup—and a major opportunity for first-in investors.
With Tesla looking to “absorb the entire world’s lithium production”, in the words of Elon Musk, and seeking “American lithium sources first”, the ability to extract lucrative lithium from petroleum brine is a major coup—and a major opportunity for first-in investors.
pz1975
Active Member
Bottom of this article: "This communication is a paid advertisement and is not a recommendation to buy or sell securities...We have been compensated by MGX Minerals Inc. to conduct investor relations advertising and marketing for [CSE: XMG; OTC:MGXMF; FKT: 1MG]."
I googled it and it does appear to be a real thing.
Extracting Lithium from oil wastewater
My sister is a Petroleum Geologist in Bakersfield. Produced wastewater, especially in older fields is often a problem. As oil fields start to get played out, the ratio of waste water to oil goes up. In California they came up with an idea that is novel and efficient. They take the natural gas produced from the wells, burn it to boil the water produced, then run that through turbines to produce some electricity. They can run most if not all the equipment in the field this way and sometimes even put some on the grid. Depending on the type of field, the water is either allowed to cool and then pumped back into the ground, but sometimes they pump the steam down into the ground which helps loosen up the remaining oil. Water injection helps keep pressure up in the reservoir.
If they could extract minerals from the water, that would make the turbines last longer (cleaner steam), and would be another revenue source from the field. The trick would be if the water produced had enough dissolved lithium in it. Lithium is pretty common, but not all oil fields are going to have commercially worthwhile quantities in the waste water.
It's an interesting idea and I'm sure the oil producers would go for it if that even if they financially just broke even. Cleaning the waste water is something that would help get regulators off their backs.
In places like California where they take the environment seriously, oil producers are under a microscope all the time. Agriculture operations going on next door can get away with contaminating water in ways oil producers can't even think about without getting fined. The ag lobby in California is a lot stronger than the oil lobby.
Thank you very much for that explanation; I knew of the current procedure but not the process. There is, in my experience, a Very Big "But" in its entirety, alluded to your third paragraph's opening "If":
Effectively all waters but most especially brine waters contain any number of sulfates & sulfites - SO4s & SO3s, and carbonates and their ilk - CO3s and so forth; attached to or otherwise associated with those anions are their balancing cations. Those last are the interesting fellas: usually metalliferous and apart from the nigh-ubiquitous calcium & sodium, whatever other metals present (Li+ among them) in the host rocks are dissolved in these hydrothermal solutions.
Now, the quintessentially ionic-bonded lithium ranks as possibly the element easiest to extract, but here come the Big But: under effectively all such hydrothermal situations, that nasty little ever-present calcium is about the worst. The reason is that in its most common form - calcium carbonate - it presents a negative dissolution gradient: whereas most compounds increase in solubility as temperatures rise, CaCO3 decreases. So when, as in the above process, the fluids are brought to steam-creating temperatures, poof! all those fancy turbines and associated pipes quickly (read: just about instantaneously) become clogged with limescale. This has been the bugaboo of the geothermal power industry for ever.
So I wish all who endeavor in the field well, and hope the calcium problem eventually is slain. The prospect held great appeal for me a few...years???
....... ago, and we thought we knew a lot then.
Effectively all waters but most especially brine waters contain any number of sulfates & sulfites - SO4s & SO3s, and carbonates and their ilk - CO3s and so forth; attached to or otherwise associated with those anions are their balancing cations. Those last are the interesting fellas: usually metalliferous and apart from the nigh-ubiquitous calcium & sodium, whatever other metals present (Li+ among them) in the host rocks are dissolved in these hydrothermal solutions.
Now, the quintessentially ionic-bonded lithium ranks as possibly the element easiest to extract, but here come the Big But: under effectively all such hydrothermal situations, that nasty little ever-present calcium is about the worst. The reason is that in its most common form - calcium carbonate - it presents a negative dissolution gradient: whereas most compounds increase in solubility as temperatures rise, CaCO3 decreases. So when, as in the above process, the fluids are brought to steam-creating temperatures, poof! all those fancy turbines and associated pipes quickly (read: just about instantaneously) become clogged with limescale. This has been the bugaboo of the geothermal power industry for ever.
So I wish all who endeavor in the field well, and hope the calcium problem eventually is slain. The prospect held great appeal for me a few...years???
....... ago, and we thought we knew a lot then.
Especially in the western US, calcium carbonate is common in fresh water. My parents' water in Morro Bay, CA had so much dissolved in it the water was bitter and I used to describe it as hard enough to break your teeth. It's not quite that bad here in the Northwest, but lime scale in any frequently used sink, shower, tub, etc. is a pain.
My ex-brother-in-law worked at Southern Cal Edison looking for geothermal in eastern California. There were plenty of sites with water hot enough, but most had corrosive stuff dissolved in them that would eat metal turbine blades. Having to shut down and descale the turbines was par for the course with "clean" steam.
A friend of his had been hired by China Lake Naval Weapons Center to make a limestone tank for the Marines. The project didn't go anywhere, but he ended up creating a job for himself as the base Geologist. The base happened to be right on top of one of the best geothermal sites in California. After battling for it for decades he finally got the powers that be to build geothermal plants on the base. It provided all the power for the base and they were actually able to sell some to the grid.
I went to the dedication of the first plant. It was right on the edge of the test range and they were very strict about cameras. There were a number of observation posts in the hills above us and I had a feeling there were security people in there watching us with binoculars. This was during the Reagan administration and there was a fair amount of anti-Soviet paranoia around. I looked over the range as best I could with just eyeballs, but didn't see anything interesting. I had heard there were some B-29s out there that had been used as targets.
My ex-brother-in-law worked at Southern Cal Edison looking for geothermal in eastern California. There were plenty of sites with water hot enough, but most had corrosive stuff dissolved in them that would eat metal turbine blades. Having to shut down and descale the turbines was par for the course with "clean" steam.
A friend of his had been hired by China Lake Naval Weapons Center to make a limestone tank for the Marines. The project didn't go anywhere, but he ended up creating a job for himself as the base Geologist. The base happened to be right on top of one of the best geothermal sites in California. After battling for it for decades he finally got the powers that be to build geothermal plants on the base. It provided all the power for the base and they were actually able to sell some to the grid.
I went to the dedication of the first plant. It was right on the edge of the test range and they were very strict about cameras. There were a number of observation posts in the hills above us and I had a feeling there were security people in there watching us with binoculars. This was during the Reagan administration and there was a fair amount of anti-Soviet paranoia around. I looked over the range as best I could with just eyeballs, but didn't see anything interesting. I had heard there were some B-29s out there that had been used as targets.
I thought I'd share some of my knowledge on the use of Cobalt in industrial applications. Tungsten and variants use around 81% Wolfram-carbide and 18% Cobalt as "binder" for the hard carbide. It's sintered from a powder mixture. The use of this material is everywhere, drill bits, turning, milling, tunnel boring(?), mining and wear parts etc. Here's a supplier. Recycling of materials has often depended on the Cobalt price, see this supplier.
I believe cobalt is used in li-ion batteries for its electrical properties. They use a compound with nickel and cobalt for the cathode in the battery. This gives a good electrode potential as well as good energy density. The original material used by Tesla was Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide, but it's quite possible they have tweaked that since, though it's known Tesla still uses cobalt and nickel in the batteries.
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