"The S and X are better cars than the Model 3" - Elon

[ytwytw]

Model 3 is getting new features first, charging faster, receiving updates quicker than S/X

WHY

Is Tesla planning abandon S/X soon when Y is out?

 

[Sg911]

The other brands don't have a fast-charging network already in place. That gives Tesla a big advantage, at least for the next year.

True but in the larger perspective ...that’s nothing! The differences are shrinking every 6 months

 

[Sg911]

Model 3 is getting new features first, charging faster, receiving updates quicker than S/X

WHY

Is Tesla planning abandon S/X soon when Y is out?

I asked this same question. Why spend the $$ on redesign and retooling, when you can sell 500,000 Model Y’s , and as Elon said at the unveil. The Y will sell way more than the 3, S, and X combined! I just wonder with all the $80-$150k competition coming , if it’s worth the $$ investment if you are not pioneering that’s segment With advantage any longer?

 

[SO16]

Let the model 3 owners enjoy their honeymoon. When Y comes up, 3 will be left behind. Then they will join S and X owners complaining about Elon

Look. I understand technology evolves. No way older S and X can get all the new features. The issue is Elon. The guy keeps lying and set incorrect expectations. That is what pissing people off

I don’t understood why they have not released a next gen X and S yet. High end models are the one giving him the best margin. Besides their size, give me one reason why I should buy X or S today.

It’s not just about margin. It’s about volume too.

Elon has gotten a few things wrong mainly with timing of things. But I’ll take “better late than never” over any of the other manufacturers lack of vision.

 

[emmz0r]

It's fine to have a vision that everyone will drive an EV, but I still want premium, so whoever makes the best premium, I'll take.

I still think Tesla is the best though, because of all the EAP/FSD developments and the unique, big screen.

 

[SO16]

True but in the larger perspective ...that’s nothing! The differences are shrinking every 6 months

LOL.... okay.

 

[AustinP]

Tesla has been improving the S and X every month since each car started production. I’m talking about all aspects of the cars. Obviously thru the OTA but the mechanics, components, batteries and motors. From 3G to LTE, two generations of panoroofs, three of the S handles, 60,70, 85, 90, 100 batteries, drive units, D models, falcon wings, seats and many more bits we don’t see or forget about.
Believing that Tesla is dropping the S and X, just because the Model 3 gets more attention for the time being, is understandable but not fair towards Tesla.
Looking at any car business, it’s easy to understand that high end cars like the S and X sell in smaller volumes than midrange cars like the 3. But the margins are way better and sound business is to balance both market opportunities.
Model 3 benefits from the S and X experience and technologies. It’s brilliant that Tesla did not hesitate to build the best car it could offer at that price point. That is genuine customer oriented business.
S and X are bigger cars and have differentiating features that makes they both remain a valuable proposition in a sound portfolio of products. And for sure Tesla will keep on improving both S and X.

 

[jerry33]

True but in the larger perspective ...that’s nothing! The differences are shrinking every 6 months

Let's see. The Volvo Polecat (sp), which is the closest to the 3, is two years away, costs more, and has lower specs than the 3. Then there's the VW, which has been coming out next year for the last eight years. I'd guess in ten years there'll be some serious competition.

 

[dsnows]

I don’t get it. Tesla announces V3 superchargers, but they’re still building superchargers with 72 KW. Why would they still be doing that???

Maybe they are less expensive to install and operate. And, they do still meet a need. In the city perhaps you are likely to be charging longer so don't need as fast a charger.

 

[Doctt]

It’s not just about margin. It’s about volume too.

Elon has gotten a few things wrong mainly with timing of things. But I’ll take “better late than never” over any of the other manufacturers lack of vision.

Go tell someone who lease a Tesla. Many of them bought FSD based on the assumption that they will get the feature in 6 months. Now 2 years later, nothing to really show for and they will probably return their car without FSD ever activated

Not sure how long you have a Tesla. Not once he got his timing right. That is why I no longer trust him. I think most of the time he just BS

 

[Sg911]

Let's see. The Volvo Polecat (sp), which is the closest to the 3, is two years away, costs more, and has lower specs than the 3. Then there's the VW, which has been coming out next year for the last eight years. I'd guess in ten years there'll be some serious competition.

Nice try! The Volvo Polestar 2 is being delivered July 2020, and $1k deposits started last month. the specs aren’t bad and it has 450 hp and 450 torque. It might be heavier but it also has a large interior screen and higher quality interior than a Model 3 and Y.

The past is over ..TESLA will No longer have the EV monopoly. Elon wanted to have the EV revolution , and it has gone viral !

 

[Sg911]

Tesla has been improving the S and X every month since each car started production. I’m talking about all aspects of the cars. Obviously thru the OTA but the mechanics, components, batteries and motors. From 3G to LTE, two generations of panoroofs, three of the S handles, 60,70, 85, 90, 100 batteries, drive units, D models, falcon wings, seats and many more bits we don’t see or forget about.
Believing that Tesla is dropping the S and X, just because the Model 3 gets more attention for the time being, is understandable but not fair towards Tesla.
Looking at any car business, it’s easy to understand that high end cars like the S and X sell in smaller volumes than midrange cars like the 3. But the margins are way better and sound business is to balance both market opportunities.
Model 3 benefits from the S and X experience and technologies. It’s brilliant that Tesla did not hesitate to build the best car it could offer at that price point. That is genuine customer oriented business.
S and X are bigger cars and have differentiating features that makes they both remain a valuable proposition in a sound portfolio of products. And for sure Tesla will keep on improving both S and X.

True and As I said what will Tesla’s advantage be when they finally refresh the S and or X in the next year is so . The Porsche Taycan and Audi etron GT are gorgeous , do 0-60 in under 3.5 seconds, beautiful interiors , will handle amazing, and will have a network of dealers and history . They will initially lack the charging but with billions of dollars from VW group that problem will be minimal . So outside FSD , what will the Tesla advantage be? I am just being objective - I own a Model 3PD , and P90D Model X but looking at the BiG picture !

 

[sacelectric]

True and As I said what will Tesla’s advantage be when they finally refresh the S and or X in the next year is so . The Porsche Taycan and Audi etron GT are gorgeous , do 0-60 in under 3.5 seconds, beautiful interiors , will handle amazing, and will have a network of dealers and history . They will initially lack the charging but with billions of dollars from VW group that problem will be minimal . So outside FSD , what will the Tesla advantage be? I am just being objective - I own a Model 3PD , and P90D Model X but looking at the BiG picture !

Since the Taycan and etron GT are still just concepts that nobody has seen or driven in production form, it's hard to say but the e-tron SUV and the changes in the Model 3 vs S give us some hints. First, it's clear that making a good electric car is HARD. The VW group is massive but they don't have a lot of relevant experience with electric vehicles and it shows with how relatively inefficient the e-tron SUV is and how compromised the packaging is as they've tried to shoehorn an EV drivetrain into an ICE platform. Their sedans may suffer the same issues. Can't say for sure yet. As far as what advantage Tesla has and will have going forward, will it be easier for Tesla to bring their interiors and service infrastructure up to Volkswagen Group standards or will it be easier for VAG to develop a class leading EV platform, battery supply, and charging network? I'd rather have the first challenge. Then again, Tesla's shallow executive talent bench and fragile finances won't help them here.

Second point for Tesla, there are significant benefits to vertically integrating battery cell+pack+drivetrain development rather than relying on external suppliers. If you look at the teardowns of the Model 3 and how much Tesla has done to own the whole stack that goes into the 3, it's an amazing achievement that reduces their reliance on 3rd parties and increases their competitive advantage. It tooks Tesla billions and years to get to where they are today. It will take VAG a while too while Tesla continues to innovate. Battery and supplier constraints may prevent VAG from profitably selling large quantities of EVs for many years. Either way, their entrance into the marketplace doesn't necessarily mean less sales for Tesla. They will also conquest their own ICE sales while expanding the market for EVs overall.

Finally, unless there are some massive improvements to FSD in the near term, I don't see it being a significant advantage. Sg911, you're hitting on a really important point here. FSD is an critical luxury feature but let's not confuse what Autopilot can do now vs what Tesla is promising it will be able to do. I can't be the only one who's worried about how the goalposts are moving with Tesla and FSD. Every day that goes by without meaningful improvements in FSD, Tesla loses credibility. Their system is good level 2 but not significantly better than what you can get from other OEMs (see Super Cruise, Distronic Plus, whatever Mobileye/Intel is selling.) Furthermore, there's a real risk to overpromising and underdelivering. Tesla has been selling the promise of real autonomy to thousands of customers who chose to buy one of their vehicles based on that future. I know I did. If the V3 hardware comes out and we're still stuck holding the wheel on the highway with nags every 30 seconds or so, it's hard to see that as anything other than a letdown and not likely to be a significant competitive advantage. It will also really piss off some customers who may simply go back to buying BMWs, Mercedes, and Audis once they come to terms with the fact that Tesla has been blowing smoke on autonomy. Considering how many promises regarding Autopilot's development that have already been broken (timeline, cross country self driving, Autopilot crash frequency, etc.,) I'd argue it's time to be skeptical about how good their FSD will ever be. Musk claims, "Your Tesla will soon be able to go from your garage at home to parking at work with no driver input at all." Fool me once, shame on you...

 

[Sg911]

Since the Taycan and etron GT are still just concepts that nobody has seen or driven in production form, it's hard to say but the e-tron SUV and the changes in the Model 3 vs S give us some hints. First, it's clear that making a good electric car is HARD. The VW group is massive but they don't have a lot of relevant experience with electric vehicles and it shows with how relatively inefficient the e-tron SUV is and how compromised the packaging is as they've tried to shoehorn an EV drivetrain into an ICE platform. Their sedans may suffer the same issues. Can't say for sure yet. As far as what advantage Tesla has and will have going forward, will it be easier for Tesla to bring their interiors and service infrastructure up to Volkswagen Group standards or will it be easier for VAG to develop a class leading EV platform, battery supply, and charging network? I'd rather have the first challenge. Then again, Tesla's shallow executive talent bench and fragile finances won't help them here.

Second point for Tesla, there are significant benefits to vertically integrating battery cell+pack+drivetrain development rather than relying on external suppliers. If you look at the teardowns of the Model 3 and how much Tesla has done to own the whole stack that goes into the 3, it's an amazing achievement that reduces their reliance on 3rd parties and increases their competitive advantage. It tooks Tesla billions and years to get to where they are today. It will take VAG a while too while Tesla continues to innovate. Battery and supplier constraints may prevent VAG from profitably selling large quantities of EVs for many years. Either way, their entrance into the marketplace doesn't necessarily mean less sales for Tesla. They will also conquest their own ICE sales while expanding the market for EVs overall.

Finally, unless there are some massive improvements to FSD in the near term, I don't see it being a significant advantage. Sg911, you're hitting on a really important point here. FSD is an critical luxury feature but let's not confuse what Autopilot can do now vs what Tesla is promising it will be able to do. I can't be the only one who's worried about how the goalposts are moving with Tesla and FSD. Every day that goes by without meaningful improvements in FSD, Tesla loses credibility. Their system is good level 2 but not significantly better than what you can get from other OEMs (see Super Cruise, Distronic Plus, whatever Mobileye/Intel is selling.) Furthermore, there's a real risk to overpromising and underdelivering. Tesla has been selling the promise of real autonomy to thousands of customers who chose to buy one of their vehicles based on that future. I know I did. If the V3 hardware comes out and we're still stuck holding the wheel on the highway with nags every 30 seconds or so, it's hard to see that as anything other than a letdown and not likely to be a significant competitive advantage. It will also really piss off some customers who may simply go back to buying BMWs, Mercedes, and Audis once they come to terms with the fact that Tesla has been blowing smoke on autonomy. Considering how many promises regarding Autopilot's development that have already been broken (timeline, cross country self driving, Autopilot crash frequency, etc.,) I'd argue it's time to be skeptical about how good their FSD will ever be. Musk claims, "Your Tesla will soon be able to go from your garage at home to parking at work with no driver input at all." Fool me once, shame on you...

Thank you for your insight . 1) the Taycan has been driven a few times already , the final sketches released last week look like the concept , and the final design will release September 2019 with buyer builds in October , and delivery starting in January 2020. The Audi e-tron is massive at 5800 lbs , and the etron Gt which is very exciting to me, outside of Rivian , is a platform. There are mOdular variants shown at the Geneva automotive show , of a sled like base for them to build off many shorter and longer designs to vertically integrate cost and build alongside its gas engines rather than retool entire factories. The German government just agreed with VW, and 30 other German companies to subsidize and leapfrog the stalled battery projects they had started , and I would not doubt their focus now. A tremendous amount of resources are now being poured into this, and BMW announced today it is skipping rare earth magnets and reinventing the motor technology , and also has battery technology that has range exceeding 400 miles.BMW’s future EVs could outlast the competition by 200 miles

3) I am not yet surprised someone hasn’t ever reverse engineered a better Tesla already . The Legacy automakers have hundreds of billions, and its just a matter of time before they start partnerships to minimize their timelines. Volkswagen has locked down $25B in battery supplies for its electric vehicle push

4) I have had autopilot on Model 3 during the trial , thought meh, and only bought it and FSD last week (more as an investment in resale). I really only wanted TACC , which I’ve had on my ice cars since 2015 , and more Than any other future feature , and before price fluctuations rise again. I love driving My Model 3 Performance. I don’t ever really use nav on autopilot or am on a highway long enough to need it. The auto park is a gimmick , the 3 is the easiest car to drive in the world. I have auto park on my Jeep Grand Cherokee , and rarely used it either . The Model X is just as easy the park . Summon is cool but not absolutely necessary .

Think about this? Why is Tesla rushing to FSD? Is it safer? Absolutely but then what?! There will be a tipping point we are rushing to for everyone’s cars to be connected and to drive us ; where we lose the right , and the privilege of driving ourselves. Imagine this scenario : The statistics will eventually show autonomous cars are 20-75x safer than human pilots. Insurance rates will fall massively , Uber, lyft, autonomous Tesla’s will be more like timeshares, and driving yourself ...will be a luxury tax! So while everyone is clamoring to autonomy , they are also trading freedom for safety/security ! And as Benjamin Franklin said so well. You might lose both! FSD will require government approvals for true autonomy , and I wouldn’t stake that Trump /government lobbyists will agree to that anytime soon. He just stated that autonomous airplanes are crazy , so imagine that leap ... so where is the Tesla edge. Supercharger? Meh that challenge will be solved for other ev’s By the time the. Model Y releases, and it will not be a problem or like Henrik Fisker said , his cars will have inductive charging ! There are many solutions coming that weren’t being looked upon so heavily before 2019.

Tesla lacks any true Customer Service, now that the 3 came out , and Y is on the way ...it deteriorated. It took them 3 days to answer a question I had about autopilot purchase. I have been waiting 6 months for my Carbon Fiber Spoiler . You can’t call them about anything but service issues. I called the local Service department about it . They received 8 spoilers last week , and none were assigned to mine. I mean really ridiculous! Service department is usually great but the back office is a nightmare , and I won’t even go into my nightmare delivery process. This is the Achilles’ heel of Tesla , and where it May cos them dearly in the long run. We all want to leave the franchise dealers behind but this Tesla method of Customer care hasn’t proven a better choice in my experience !! The ability to buy online is brilliant . No salesman, no pressure just like ordering a pizza. Volvo , Audi, Porsche are doing that too now .

Just a few thoughts.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

I was a reservation holder for a 3 for about a year but could't take it anymore so I ordered a '17 MS 75 RWD instead. I hit that perfect window when it came uncorked but got money back because it didn't come with some premium features that became standard (air suspension, upgraded lighting). A few weeks later AWD became standard which I didn't want. So I got a faster car than the person who ordered a week before me (and got money back), and paid thousands less than the person who ordered after me who had no choice but to accept features I didn't want. I lived in bliss for a short time until they announced AP 2.5 and MCU2 were standard.

Some days I read about Sentry mode, and pole position and dash came and wish I had MCU2. But then I slap myself in the face and remind myself I couldn't afford to buy a MS the way they are currently offered in the configuration tool even with the recent price drop. I also remind myself of the dozens of improvements I have gotten OTA so far for free and look forward to many more to come. Innovation comes fast and furious with Tesla and you can't worry about the features you didn't get. I love my MS and come up with any excuse to drive it. Would I have loved the 3 if I waited a few months longer? Probably. Someday a refresh will compel me to trade Black Angus in for newer, but I feel like that day is several years away. God willing it will be a Roadster 2!

I'm kind of glad I couldn't get uncorked. I feel like I'm chewing the crap out of my tires as it is. I would still love my car to get uncorked though.

 

[RachH]

This. I'm not an S owner, but I am an early 3 LR RWD owner. Today a new buyer can order my config as AWD and with FSD tacked on for the same price I paid. Yet my car remains just as awesome as it was on day one. In fact, it's more awesome from several OTA upgrades and is about to receive more power and range via another OTA update.

Progress is fun. It's unevenly distributed but eventually we all benefit.

I agree with you 100%.

Question....I have a LR AWD. Are we also going to be receiving more power and range via update? I've only seen the RWD mentioned on these posts but maybe I missed it?

 

[Sg911]

P.s- The Porsche Taycan starting at $85k all the way to the turbo model (weird , I know) at $140k has 25,000 reservations already and Porsche claims it will sell 25k Taycan annually . That’s 10% of their sales of all cars in 2018. Their assembly set up from their decades of experience is established to handle that and more. It has 4 synchronous motors , which handle high output more easily than a-synchronous , and an 800 V charging system for 15 minute full recharge! The foundation is being poured ...

 

[SO16]

Go tell someone who lease a Tesla. Many of them bought FSD based on the assumption that they will get the feature in 6 months. Now 2 years later, nothing to really show for and they will probably return their car without FSD ever activated

Not sure how long you have a Tesla. Not once he got his timing right. That is why I no longer trust him. I think most of the time he just BS

I have followed Tesla since the Roadster.

I have owned a Tesla since early 2017. Only TSLA shareholder before that.

Why ANYONE would buy FSD (future functionality) on a LEASE, is a complete mystery to me.

Elon has not been accurate on FSD. But he has still done a good job on several things. I do think Tesla has pushed the FSD the wrong way. But I really don’t care. People need to take personal responsibility in their actions too and never purchase something until it works the way you hoped.

 

[Sg911]

Speaking of FSD;Tesla sues self-driving startup Zoox and former employees for alleged trade secret theft
Tesla accuses self-driving startup Zoox and former employees of trade secret theft

 

[shirosan]

I have followed Tesla since the Roadster.

I have owned a Tesla since early 2017. Only TSLA shareholder before that.

Why ANYONE would buy FSD (future functionality) on a LEASE, is a complete mystery to me.

Elon has not been accurate on FSD. But he has still done a good job on several things. I do think Tesla has pushed the FSD the wrong way. But I really don’t care. People need to take personal responsibility in their actions too and never purchase something until it works the way you hoped.

Well said; society and daily challenges would probably improve for the better if personal responsibility was practiced regularly by everyone...