Didn't mean to elicit a 50 line post from an offhand comment about the ease of charging at a public station but I stand by the original comment. It's fast and easy. You can disagree and I won't take it personally but I've lost count of the number of times I've plugged into a public charger (cable provided) during Northeast US winters. I wave my card at the machine, plug in the adapter and plug into the car.
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The wrong focus on range anxiety?
- Thread starter gpetti
- Start date
Didn't mean to elicit a 50 line post from an offhand comment about the ease of charging at a public station but I stand by the original comment. It's fast and easy. You can disagree and I won't take it personally but I've lost count of the number of times I've plugged into a public charger (cable provided) during Northeast US winters. I wave my card at the machine, plug in the adapter and plug into the car.
And you are using slow public charging with 200+ mile range that isn't a Supercharger often? So it takes a minute and 19 seconds give or take. It takes that long to walk into the store from where you parked. It certainly takes longer to fill up a gas tank in the cold.
Canuck
Well-Known Member
That's all true and range anxiety is a real issue when it comes to certain travels or long commutes. No one can really deny that. But it can be explained:
1. For the vast majority of my driving I have no range anxiety at all and plugging in at home is so much better than going to a gas station; and
2. Most importantly, all those ICE forums you refer to may not deal with range anxiety but that's because they are the old status quo of burning refined oil as you drive, causing significantly more carbon emissions than driving an electric vehicle and global warming is a serious issue. Being an early adopter means that I must "suffer" (if you can even call it that) with a certain amount of range anxiety but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make for my children and their children (and everyone yet to step foot on this planet). Sure, jumping in the car and driving to Madrid, or Belgrade, or Bucharest, or Copenhagen without range anxiety would be nice (when Tesla makes the Model AV for Amphibious Vehicle), but that has to be weighted against the downside of driving an ICE.
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NigelM
Recovering Member
I agree with you (although I no longer suffer winters), most of the time it takes 10 or 20 secs at most. It's also fair to note that maybe in Europe they're not as standardized as we are here and sooner or later European owners are going to cross a border or two and find themselves with different plugs, EVSEs and processes.
Back to the original topic: I've been driving all electric almost 4 years now and IMO range anxiety is just ignorance-induced worrying. No question that taking trips in an EV definitely requires more planning than with an ICE, although SuperChargers have reduced the need for that, but I've never (really, never, not even once, ever) found myself anxiously looking for somewhere to charge. So, is it possible that driving pure EV puts the kibosh on spontaneity? Yes, but for that scenario we have two EV's....
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Pilots plan flights and refueling stops all the time - and I don't recall hearing any fussing about worrying getting to their next point. Nigel's right. You have to plan. Know your equipment. I've been driving electric for close to four years now & a little common sense is all it takes.
Yes, I've had range anxiety ... before I owned an EV. I guess if people want to make a big deal out of this, they will - but I have to agree that I've found road trips simple and not particularly stressful. I'd hazard a guess that the responses we see here correlate closely to how people react to things in general.
Yes, I've had range anxiety ... before I owned an EV. I guess if people want to make a big deal out of this, they will - but I have to agree that I've found road trips simple and not particularly stressful. I'd hazard a guess that the responses we see here correlate closely to how people react to things in general.
Since this little conversation about how long does it take to operate EV charging in cold climates has confused some people, I'll do my best to explain to anyone else who is still interested. If nothing else, take as a bit more input on the challenges (and fun too!) of operating an EV in colder climates. It is not to be taken too seriously. EV driving is fun and winter too.
In short, the point was: If you have to do your daily EV charge, at home and at work, outside in the freezing cold perhaps with snow, you may be tempted to forgo plugging in (and indirectly increase your chances of range anxiety), because it is unpleasant and takes a bit of time depending on weather conditions affecting things, operating the charger and so on. If you drive into a warm garage at home and/or at other daily location, this will not affect you.
It stated with this message bessage from 3s-a-charm:
His point was, as I read it anyway, that cold weather affects our willingness to go outside and fill up the gas tank, something he coined the term "reverse range anxiety" for. To which I replied offering that "reverse range anxiety" can affect EVs too, perhaps even more often than an ICE (because you need to charge more often and also because cold affects battery life), if one doesn't have warm charging areas:
I thought my message was self-exlanatory and innocent enough, didn't really expect it to elicit any kind of response. I still think it is merely a simple statement of fact. In the cold, running into the warm and not plugging in can be tempting (because it also means you don't have to plug out in the morning and clean a cable from snow etc.), but I also offered that if 3s-a-charm lives in an area and a situation where he doesn't have to charge in the cold often, then of course this is not an issue for him/her.
My message received this comment:
To which I answered with a message, starting with the words "My experience is different.", explaining my experience why charging in the cold can take several minutes to operate (depeding on ice/snow covering/locking charger port/trunk/frunk/charger, running/wrapping up/cleaning cable from snow, operating a charger that may require fiddling with controls), if you have to provide your own cable. I followed up with a clean test, at a free charger, free of snow and ice, that a minute and a half is a best-case scenario of plugging in and plugging out - and then more if there is detrimental weather, operating a charger or charging issues (having to re-plug, unlock connections to do so etc.) hampering it.
Not a single person has offered any point as to what in my measurements or rationale is wrong, so it is very hard to know what exactly people are disagreeing with. There has been more talk about the length of my comments than the merits of my arguments. I certainly couldn't charge an EV in 10-20 seconds, going to the trunk to pick up the cable alone takes that much times. When one is operating a gas tank, nothing needs to be fetched from the trunk. Now, as I said, operating a supercharger is faster of course.
I certainly meant no offense to anyone, I simply offered two opinions 1) charging an EV - when the cable isn't readily hanging in the charger - takes more time than some people seem to think and 2) in cold weather, "reverse range anxiety" can affect EV operation too, because it is tempting to forgo messing with the cables and charging in ice and snow, if one has to operate them outside. I also said charging an EV in the cold takes a comparable time to filling up an ICE, but I didn't mean it takes exactly the same time - I simply meant a significant-enough time for "reverse range anxiety" to be possible.
Not all people find filling up an ICE in the cold troublesome at all, so the basic issue of course wouldn't affect all people in the first place. But if it does, then they may find EVs having a similar issue.
Fair enough?
I assume from your comments you charge at home in a garage? Because that certainly makes a large difference and my original message clearly stated I didn't consider this a problem for garage users. But if you only have the option of going straight in to the warm or plugging in/out out in the elements daily, going straight in can be tempting because then there is no fiddling with the cable - nor fiddling with it again in the morning - in the cold, perhaps when snow/ice is covering/hampering access to the car, the charger, the cable etc. It is unpleasant as it is, removing charging hassle from it can be tempting. This may be offset by the fact that in some cold areas people may be used to plugging in ICE cars to heaters.
The 1 minute 30 seconds, roughly as a ballpark, test of plugging in and out at a public charger was - I would say - an optimal result (excepting acrobatics to shave off seconds). An outside home charging socket might not be so easy and well-lit to plug into either. That's how long it takes if you need to get a cable from the trunk and run it. I don't see how anyone can disagree with that beyond questioning my measurement. I explained my test in detail for anyone to repeat. It is logical if there are any issues, or if the charger requires operating, more time will be needed. And unlike a gas station visit, charging an EV is an almost daily occurrence or perhaps even several times a day occurrence.
The point wasn't exactly to compare EV charging and filling up a gas tank time, but to flesh out my views that EV charging take long enough for "reverese range anxiety" to happen (causing range anxiety indirectly because filling up is unpleasant due to weather). I agree 1 min 30 sec, that optimal situation at that public charger, wouldn't likely be an issue - but then it was a well-lit garage (cold but still), it becomes a bit different when you are talking of someones yard and inches of snow and ice.
There are no Tesla compatible DC chargers, superchargers included, within my daily area so I can't test. All the chargers I use regularly require me to provide my own cable and that process I measured at 1 min 30 sec total, optimal circumstances. No way could I charge anywhere in 10-20 seconds, but as I've offered all along, certainly 20 seconds to plug-in (and maybe another 20 seconds to plug-out) sounds possible at a free charger where the cable is hanging readily there, like at a supercharger, if the charge port isn't frozen shut and if there are no issues with the charge starting. My measurement was a minute and a half to plug-in, plug-out at a free charger when one needs to fetch their own cable from/to the trunk, when no snow/ice was hampering the process and nothing was needed to operate the chager (no payment, no sending SMS, no setting a timer etc.).
Less superchargers certainly is a part of it, because they are faster to operate. I guess 20 seconds could be possible on a supercharger, and another 20 seconds to remove, same with a HPWC in a garage. Beyond that I would say standardization has less to do with my comment, though. The public charger I measured was a free, no operation required charger for which Tesla provides a cable (it charges about 150 km per hour). The baseline seems to be a minute and a half of operation in the cold but clean (a cold garage in this case), when one needs to hook in and out their own cable, provided there are no issues in the charge starting or unlocking.
If there are issues, or if the charger needs operating, or if weather is detrimental it all can take quite a bit more. The warmth of the inside can be mighty tempting...
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I would add to that, they probably also correlate more to the maturity of the EV infrastructure within their area. There is a huge difference in an international audience such as this, regarding that.
If nothing else, take as a bit more input on the challenges (and fun too!) of operating an EV in colder climates. It is not to be taken too seriously. EV driving is fun and winter too.In short, the point was: If you have to do your daily EV charge, at home and at work, outside in the freezing cold perhaps with snow, you may be tempted to forgo plugging in (and indirectly increase your chances of range anxiety), because it is unpleasant and takes a bit of time depending on weather conditions affecting things, operating the charger and so on. If you drive into a warm garage at home and/or at other daily location, this will not affect you.
It stated with this message bessage from 3s-a-charm:
Funny I was just thinking that yesterday... and I don't even have my Tesla yet! Was driving my ICE and getting a feeling of aggravation looking at the needle reaching "E" and thinking I have to stop somewhere for gas and it's cold outside and I'm in my suit and I just don't want to! Then I realized I have "reverse range anxiety".
His point was, as I read it anyway, that cold weather affects our willingness to go outside and fill up the gas tank, something he coined the term "reverse range anxiety" for. To which I replied offering that "reverse range anxiety" can affect EVs too, perhaps even more often than an ICE (because you need to charge more often and also because cold affects battery life), if one doesn't have warm charging areas:
I hope you have warm garages at home and at work to charge in, though, because with an EV you would be "gassing up" in the cold twice a day or so.
I thought my message was self-exlanatory and innocent enough, didn't really expect it to elicit any kind of response. I still think it is merely a simple statement of fact. In the cold, running into the warm and not plugging in can be tempting (because it also means you don't have to plug out in the morning and clean a cable from snow etc.), but I also offered that if 3s-a-charm lives in an area and a situation where he doesn't have to charge in the cold often, then of course this is not an issue for him/her.
My message received this comment:
To which I answered with a message, starting with the words "My experience is different.", explaining my experience why charging in the cold can take several minutes to operate (depeding on ice/snow covering/locking charger port/trunk/frunk/charger, running/wrapping up/cleaning cable from snow, operating a charger that may require fiddling with controls), if you have to provide your own cable. I followed up with a clean test, at a free charger, free of snow and ice, that a minute and a half is a best-case scenario of plugging in and plugging out - and then more if there is detrimental weather, operating a charger or charging issues (having to re-plug, unlock connections to do so etc.) hampering it.
Not a single person has offered any point as to what in my measurements or rationale is wrong, so it is very hard to know what exactly people are disagreeing with. There has been more talk about the length of my comments than the merits of my arguments. I certainly couldn't charge an EV in 10-20 seconds, going to the trunk to pick up the cable alone takes that much times. When one is operating a gas tank, nothing needs to be fetched from the trunk. Now, as I said, operating a supercharger is faster of course.
I certainly meant no offense to anyone, I simply offered two opinions 1) charging an EV - when the cable isn't readily hanging in the charger - takes more time than some people seem to think and 2) in cold weather, "reverse range anxiety" can affect EV operation too, because it is tempting to forgo messing with the cables and charging in ice and snow, if one has to operate them outside. I also said charging an EV in the cold takes a comparable time to filling up an ICE, but I didn't mean it takes exactly the same time - I simply meant a significant-enough time for "reverse range anxiety" to be possible.
Not all people find filling up an ICE in the cold troublesome at all, so the basic issue of course wouldn't affect all people in the first place. But if it does, then they may find EVs having a similar issue.
Fair enough?
I assume from your comments you charge at home in a garage? Because that certainly makes a large difference and my original message clearly stated I didn't consider this a problem for garage users. But if you only have the option of going straight in to the warm or plugging in/out out in the elements daily, going straight in can be tempting because then there is no fiddling with the cable - nor fiddling with it again in the morning - in the cold, perhaps when snow/ice is covering/hampering access to the car, the charger, the cable etc. It is unpleasant as it is, removing charging hassle from it can be tempting. This may be offset by the fact that in some cold areas people may be used to plugging in ICE cars to heaters.
The 1 minute 30 seconds, roughly as a ballpark, test of plugging in and out at a public charger was - I would say - an optimal result (excepting acrobatics to shave off seconds). An outside home charging socket might not be so easy and well-lit to plug into either. That's how long it takes if you need to get a cable from the trunk and run it. I don't see how anyone can disagree with that beyond questioning my measurement. I explained my test in detail for anyone to repeat. It is logical if there are any issues, or if the charger requires operating, more time will be needed. And unlike a gas station visit, charging an EV is an almost daily occurrence or perhaps even several times a day occurrence.
The point wasn't exactly to compare EV charging and filling up a gas tank time, but to flesh out my views that EV charging take long enough for "reverese range anxiety" to happen (causing range anxiety indirectly because filling up is unpleasant due to weather). I agree 1 min 30 sec, that optimal situation at that public charger, wouldn't likely be an issue - but then it was a well-lit garage (cold but still), it becomes a bit different when you are talking of someones yard and inches of snow and ice.
There are no Tesla compatible DC chargers, superchargers included, within my daily area so I can't test. All the chargers I use regularly require me to provide my own cable and that process I measured at 1 min 30 sec total, optimal circumstances. No way could I charge anywhere in 10-20 seconds, but as I've offered all along, certainly 20 seconds to plug-in (and maybe another 20 seconds to plug-out) sounds possible at a free charger where the cable is hanging readily there, like at a supercharger, if the charge port isn't frozen shut and if there are no issues with the charge starting. My measurement was a minute and a half to plug-in, plug-out at a free charger when one needs to fetch their own cable from/to the trunk, when no snow/ice was hampering the process and nothing was needed to operate the chager (no payment, no sending SMS, no setting a timer etc.).
Less superchargers certainly is a part of it, because they are faster to operate. I guess 20 seconds could be possible on a supercharger, and another 20 seconds to remove, same with a HPWC in a garage. Beyond that I would say standardization has less to do with my comment, though. The public charger I measured was a free, no operation required charger for which Tesla provides a cable (it charges about 150 km per hour). The baseline seems to be a minute and a half of operation in the cold but clean (a cold garage in this case), when one needs to hook in and out their own cable, provided there are no issues in the charge starting or unlocking.
If there are issues, or if the charger needs operating, or if weather is detrimental it all can take quite a bit more. The warmth of the inside can be mighty tempting...
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I would add to that, they probably also correlate more to the maturity of the EV infrastructure within their area. There is a huge difference in an international audience such as this, regarding that.
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bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
True, but for some of us, we've experienced no infrastructure growing into a very convenient infrastructure.
When I purchased my Roadster 4 years ago, there was exactly one J1772 in San Francisco where I could charge. And I couldn't count on availability or access. Now, there are countless places. My first roadtrip ... very little infrastructure. But there were RV parks.
It's dangerous to assume that those of us responding don't understand what it means to operate without a supercharger on every corner. It would be like assuming I don't know about cold weather because I currently live in California.
True, but for some of us, we've experienced no infrastructure growing into a very convenient infrastructure.
When I purchased my Roadster 4 years ago, there was exactly one J1772 in San Francisco where I could charge. And I couldn't count on availability or access. Now, there are countless places. My first roadtrip ... very little infrastructure. But there were RV parks.
It's dangerous to assume that those of us responding don't understand what it means to operate without a supercharger on every corner. It would be like assuming I don't know about cold weather because I currently live in California.
I agree.
Writing that comment, to you, I actually rephrased my first wordings due to knowing you have been there through the growing pains. I agree personality has a part in it, but I equally think it may be dangerous to assume people posting about range anxiety in a forum such as this, necessarily exhibit those character traits. I don't think I do, for example, even though I'm active in such topics and even chose a nick to that effect. And some people commenting to me, for example, clearly do so on the basis of using a more mature EV infrastructure than I do and thus miss my point, so it is hard for us all (myself included) to constantly keep in mind that people have different situations, yet comment on the same topics.
My situation, probably, is not terribly unlike where you started from (there are probably more chargers but since Tesla has no adapters I can't use most of them) - perhaps with the added fun of winter if you started in California. I can - and do - deal with the hassle with excitement and glee. It is an adventure like someone posted elsewhere. And at the same time, of course, I meet people who would absolutely refuse to go through the same due to personal preferences or even biases.
Just look at any forum about driving to remote rural peninsulas in Canada, or state or national parks in the US. Heck, we always had to be careful to fill up before entering the "dead zone" between Erie PA and Jamestown NY. Gas range anxiety is real, it just doesn't apply to as many places, due to the excessive number of filling stations.
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This is actually one of my favorite things about Model S. I *detested* the expeditions to get gasoline in sub-freezing weather. A 15-20 minute ordeal.
It can affect EVs, but ALWAYS MUCH LESS than it affects ICEs. You may not understand how often you have to fill up the gas tank in midwinter in a typical ICE... or how much time you have to spend *standing outside* doing it. I haven't yet mentioned the complicated hassle involving dry-gas (isopropyl gas line antifreeze). In an EV like the Tesla, you're going to spend maximum two minutes in the cold; worst case for slow charging, you can sit in your heated car (which I've done).
Time outside in the cold was typically running well over 5 minutes for refilling a gasoline car, with the dry-gas and very slow pumps, and you *have* to turn the car heating off while you're doing it.
3s-a-charm
Active Member
Wow. Hadn't looked at this thread in a long time - kind of exploded didn't it!
FWIW, I'm looking forward to charging daily in my heated garage and I'm really not sure what road trips will be like but I don't do much of that in the winter. Yesterday it happened to me again as I'm driving my X5 I looked at the fuel gauge and it's got about 40 km of range left... snap! I have to plan to go to a service station and for some reason that really bothers me now where it was just a reality of vehicle ownership in the past. Interesting observation I thought.
Certainly not debating anyone's personal opinions/experiences as there are so many different situations out there that we should expect many different reactions.
FWIW, I'm looking forward to charging daily in my heated garage and I'm really not sure what road trips will be like but I don't do much of that in the winter. Yesterday it happened to me again as I'm driving my X5 I looked at the fuel gauge and it's got about 40 km of range left... snap! I have to plan to go to a service station and for some reason that really bothers me now where it was just a reality of vehicle ownership in the past. Interesting observation I thought.
Certainly not debating anyone's personal opinions/experiences as there are so many different situations out there that we should expect many different reactions.
NigelM
Recovering Member
Maybe because nobody disagrees or perhaps your point hasn't come across in such a long post? ;-)
Obviously I'm joking with you but as you're new it's worth noting that most people pop in and out here reading posts and threads in small bites. Long posts tend to get skipped over and very long posts not read at all.
Back to the original topic: I've been driving all electric almost 4 years now and IMO range anxiety is just ignorance-induced worrying. No question that taking trips in an EV definitely requires more planning than with an ICE, although SuperChargers have reduced the need for that, but I've never (really, never, not even once, ever) found myself anxiously looking for somewhere to charge. So, is it possible that driving pure EV puts the kibosh on spontaneity? Yes, but for that scenario we have two EV's....
So that's my problem... I don't have a 2nd EV (or 2nd car at all)!
I have had my EV for almost 2 years -- and find the discussion about the time to fill at a gas station vs time spent pluging in WAY overblown. In the big scheme of time spent, the difference doesn't make much of any difference. Filling up at a gas station is easy and quick. Plugin in is a bit easier. But both are easy. Even in the cold.
I have never had to look for charging (because I plan), but I have had a couple of times where I had to not do something because I wasn't confident I could get home. For illustration - I work 52 miles from home, I normally charge to 90%, there's no charging option where I work (military base), and it's below freezing. Can I take the crew for an extended lunch at a restarunt 20 miles away? 30 miles? (20 I may try, 30 I won't). Or take a Friday... Routine day, get home girlfriend wants to go to dinner & comedy club -- about 40 miles away (do it by going to late show -- time for charging). I have other examples of similar type situations - I would consider this RA. I also consider it a worthwhile trade-off for promoting EVs. But to say it doesn't exist...
If you are intolerant of the cold to the degree that taking 90 seconds once or twice a day plugging in bothers you how do you get to work or do anything outside the home? The term "reverse range anxiety" is a new one and has no meaning. Moving to a warmer climate might be worth it if spending even a few minutes outside in the cold isn't acceptable.
Wow, lots of comments. I'll try to give everyone a quick and simple clarification, so we understand each other.
First of all, important note - I'm making social observations and discussion. This is not myself complaining about anything. I love the EV adventure, I love the winter challenge of it all. And I certainly love my Tesla. But those winter challenges and all that EV fun come with certain characteristics and they're worthy of talking about. Sometimes winter can make some parts of that adventure unpleasant too and then "humanity" kicks in.
Nobody commenting here has ever skipped charging an EV because of bad weather? Really?
Yes, I agree. It is true filling up an ICE usually takes longer than plugging in and plugging out an EV, even if you have to run your own charging cable. My point was, the experience can be comparable in cold and snowy conditions to the extent that one might not want to stay by the car to plug it in, but rush inside instead - if one has to charge outside. Also, plugging in and out an EV can, certainly, in cold conditions take several minutes if there is ice/snow to handle and/or there are issues with the charging or the charger requires operating it.
It was an interesting observation, so at least from me - thank you for it. And enjoy charging in the warmth of the garage. The observations about charging EVs in the cold certainly don't apply to your case and that's good, because you can get your daily fix in warm conditions. Convenience of home charging is certainly one of the plusses for EVs, especially when done inside.
I may be new here but I'm not new to the internet. I'm perfectly aware long posts (and even short posts) get ignored all the time, everywhere. I didn't wonder out loud why this happens, I merely wondered what the disagreement may be - nobody has clarified what exactly do they disagree with.
For example, JohnQ said "I stand by the original comment. It's fast and easy. You can disagree and I won't take it personally". What he exactly disagrees with me, I don't know. He apparently stands by his comment one can charge in cold in 20 seconds and ignored my measurements and observations entirely. I sure as heck can't charge my Model S in 20 seconds anywhere (where I need to use my cable and I made that clear to JohnQ too before his response), let alone in the snow. Maybe he doubts my measurements and doesn't believe them. Apparently he can even swipe a credit card in that 20 seconds. That's real fast.
It is one fast guy that can dense the charging of a Tesla into 10-20 seconds, especially since the comparison to filling up gas requires measuring both plugging in and plugging out on return. Maybe someone can do it. For me it took a minute and a half at a free charger which didn't need operating, without adverse conditions. More if there are issues with the charging, detrimental weather or a charger requiring operating.
Obviously the term is new and I doubt anyone here is trying to make it stick. It was merely a nice observation about ICE fuelling by one member (causing range anxiety due to avoiding filling up to the last because weather) that I observed can happen with EVs too. If it is cold, you may be inclined to skip plugging in and run into warm indoors fast - if you need to plug-in outside. This may lead to range anxiety later because it can make one skip the daily charge. It can take more than 90 seconds if there is ice to clear, snow to clean, issues with charging and so forth, and in any case, it is long enough time that if you are in your suit and not dressed up properly, it may be tempting to run inside instead and "I'll do it tomorrow or maybe the day after".
I don't know how many of you have lived in areas where it is customary to plug-in ICE to electric heaters and/or battery chargers in the winter. This is reminiscent of plugging-in an EV, there is often a timer involved that kind of stuff. Some people do it religiously, other's prefer to run indoors as fast as possible if the weather is bad. So certainly there is nothing new or EV specific to this, it is just an observation on human nature.
I have a hard time understanding why many of you fight this observation. It seems perfectly logical to me that unpleasant things are something people tend to avoid, even if it is a minor annoyance like standing at a gas tank for a while or running a cable in the rain. I know for a fact that it happens because I've seen it. Of course what people find unpleasant differs from person to person. In bad weather plugging in certainly can be unpleasant and the tendency to decide to postpone seems quite human.
Exactly. And that's why it happens, because it can happen. Same with the ICE, you postpone the filling up because you can. You tell yourself you can do it later, because gas stations are everywhere and ICEs have fairly good range. In the Tesla, you know you have the battery for many days of driving. Then you've suddenly postponed it too much, get a day of unplanned driving and then range anxiety can happen, because you skipped one night of charging too many... The point is, bad weather may make one skip daily charges and that can lead to range anxiety eventually.
I would actually speculate the tendency to postpone charging is much smaller, no matter the weather, in a short-range EV than in a long-range EV such as the Model S 85 kWh. In the latter you can spend days, even if the car sits in freezing temperatures, commuting short hops. Then one day range turns yellow, you say to yourself I'll charge this evening, then you get some unexpect errands and you're in the red and anxiety enters. Sure it is your fault, but humans are faulty. If you have a short-range EV, you can't postpone, so you don't postpone it, no matter the weather.
It is quite human to postpone what isn't absolutely mandatory. No?
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I'd argue it differs from person to person. Some people have a higher tendency to postpone what isn't immediately mandatory than others. Be it filling up or charging up or, heck, mowing the lawn.
It was just an observation that bad weather and outdoors charging certainly can make one think twice about taking that moment (how long may it be depending on circumstances) to plug in.
This is greatly lessened if the charging can be done in warm and with a cable that is already hanging there at the ready. Or perhaps one that snakes in automatically. That's one reason Tesla develops this stuff, probably. Humans are human.
I certainly didn't mean to imply it applies to all people.
I'll try to give everyone a quick and simple clarification, so we understand each other.First of all, important note - I'm making social observations and discussion. This is not myself complaining about anything. I love the EV adventure, I love the winter challenge of it all. And I certainly love my Tesla. But those winter challenges and all that EV fun come with certain characteristics and they're worthy of talking about. Sometimes winter can make some parts of that adventure unpleasant too and then "humanity" kicks in.
Nobody commenting here has ever skipped charging an EV because of bad weather? Really?
Yes, I agree. It is true filling up an ICE usually takes longer than plugging in and plugging out an EV, even if you have to run your own charging cable. My point was, the experience can be comparable in cold and snowy conditions to the extent that one might not want to stay by the car to plug it in, but rush inside instead - if one has to charge outside. Also, plugging in and out an EV can, certainly, in cold conditions take several minutes if there is ice/snow to handle and/or there are issues with the charging or the charger requires operating it.
It was an interesting observation, so at least from me - thank you for it. And enjoy charging in the warmth of the garage.
The observations about charging EVs in the cold certainly don't apply to your case and that's good, because you can get your daily fix in warm conditions. Convenience of home charging is certainly one of the plusses for EVs, especially when done inside.I may be new here but I'm not new to the internet.
I'm perfectly aware long posts (and even short posts) get ignored all the time, everywhere. I didn't wonder out loud why this happens, I merely wondered what the disagreement may be - nobody has clarified what exactly do they disagree with.For example, JohnQ said "I stand by the original comment. It's fast and easy. You can disagree and I won't take it personally". What he exactly disagrees with me, I don't know. He apparently stands by his comment one can charge in cold in 20 seconds and ignored my measurements and observations entirely. I sure as heck can't charge my Model S in 20 seconds anywhere (where I need to use my cable and I made that clear to JohnQ too before his response), let alone in the snow. Maybe he doubts my measurements and doesn't believe them. Apparently he can even swipe a credit card in that 20 seconds. That's real fast.
It is one fast guy that can dense the charging of a Tesla into 10-20 seconds, especially since the comparison to filling up gas requires measuring both plugging in and plugging out on return. Maybe someone can do it. For me it took a minute and a half at a free charger which didn't need operating, without adverse conditions. More if there are issues with the charging, detrimental weather or a charger requiring operating.
Obviously the term is new and I doubt anyone here is trying to make it stick. It was merely a nice observation about ICE fuelling by one member (causing range anxiety due to avoiding filling up to the last because weather) that I observed can happen with EVs too. If it is cold, you may be inclined to skip plugging in and run into warm indoors fast - if you need to plug-in outside. This may lead to range anxiety later because it can make one skip the daily charge. It can take more than 90 seconds if there is ice to clear, snow to clean, issues with charging and so forth, and in any case, it is long enough time that if you are in your suit and not dressed up properly, it may be tempting to run inside instead and "I'll do it tomorrow or maybe the day after".
I don't know how many of you have lived in areas where it is customary to plug-in ICE to electric heaters and/or battery chargers in the winter. This is reminiscent of plugging-in an EV, there is often a timer involved that kind of stuff. Some people do it religiously, other's prefer to run indoors as fast as possible if the weather is bad. So certainly there is nothing new or EV specific to this, it is just an observation on human nature.
I have a hard time understanding why many of you fight this observation. It seems perfectly logical to me that unpleasant things are something people tend to avoid, even if it is a minor annoyance like standing at a gas tank for a while or running a cable in the rain. I know for a fact that it happens because I've seen it. Of course what people find unpleasant differs from person to person. In bad weather plugging in certainly can be unpleasant and the tendency to decide to postpone seems quite human.
Exactly. And that's why it happens, because it can happen. Same with the ICE, you postpone the filling up because you can. You tell yourself you can do it later, because gas stations are everywhere and ICEs have fairly good range. In the Tesla, you know you have the battery for many days of driving. Then you've suddenly postponed it too much, get a day of unplanned driving and then range anxiety can happen, because you skipped one night of charging too many... The point is, bad weather may make one skip daily charges and that can lead to range anxiety eventually.
I would actually speculate the tendency to postpone charging is much smaller, no matter the weather, in a short-range EV than in a long-range EV such as the Model S 85 kWh. In the latter you can spend days, even if the car sits in freezing temperatures, commuting short hops. Then one day range turns yellow, you say to yourself I'll charge this evening, then you get some unexpect errands and you're in the red and anxiety enters. Sure it is your fault, but humans are faulty.
If you have a short-range EV, you can't postpone, so you don't postpone it, no matter the weather.It is quite human to postpone what isn't absolutely mandatory. No?
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I'd argue it differs from person to person. Some people have a higher tendency to postpone what isn't immediately mandatory than others. Be it filling up or charging up or, heck, mowing the lawn.
It was just an observation that bad weather and outdoors charging certainly can make one think twice about taking that moment (how long may it be depending on circumstances) to plug in.
This is greatly lessened if the charging can be done in warm and with a cable that is already hanging there at the ready. Or perhaps one that snakes in automatically. That's one reason Tesla develops this stuff, probably. Humans are human.
I certainly didn't mean to imply it applies to all people.
NigelM
Recovering Member
Nope, really.
(Before anyone points out that we have no ice, frost or snow here in SWFL I'll counter that we have our fair share of tropical rainstorms every summer.)
I don't doubt you, but one clarification, do you charge outdoors daily? I'd assume quite a few people might run inside and skip plugging in if faced with doing so in a tropical rainstorm, when arriving at home or at work? No? I mean, EV is usually charged in a public charger only when it is necessary, so I don't doubt few or if any would skip charging if they are going somewhere and really need to charge. People tend to do what is necessary, of course.
It is the daily outside "maintenance" charge(s) at home, work etc. that are, in my view, most prone to being skipped due to weather because, for short-range commuters at least, they are not absolutely necessary every day. And this was my point ever since that first message on this little topic.
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Fair enough. Does your daily charge happen outdoors?
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