There will be NO HW4 upgrade for HW3 owners

[Midpack]

I purchased a feature to be delivered in the future. If they can't deliver the feature with the hardware I have then they will have to make it work (by hardware upgrade if necessary) or they won't have delivered the feature and hence will be in breach of contract (to deliver the feature). Given the proximity of my purchase to the release of HW4 (and hence their knowledge of any shortcomings in HW3 which are addressed by HW4 and likely what follows after which is deep into development now) I would contend that selling me the feature and then refusing necessary upgrades to make it functional would be actual and material fraud from Tesla.

Regrading the L3/L4/L5 portion (and hence the meaning of product delivery), this is something that will likely be decided in court unless they deliver the moon such that most everyone who purchased FSD is satisfied.

They’ve been calling an option well short of “full self driving” as FSD for many, many years. So I’m not sure your interpretation will prevail, especially if you bought recently after so many years of FSD being nothing of the sort. Best of luck.

 

[Ramphex]

I think it would be reasonable to expect Tesla to refund the FSD purchase for every vehicle on the day of the warranty expiration, if the FSD is not a complete product by then.

 

[Bouba]

All in all...I would be more than happy just to get FSD Beta....while you are all arguing over the finer points of L2 or L3, HW3 or HW4....please spare a thought for your European cousins

 

[emmz0r]

All in all...I would be more than happy just to get FSD Beta....while you are all arguing over the finer points of L2 or L3, HW3 or HW4....please spare a thought for your European cousins

Oui

I mean at the very least they should release comparable functionality to Mercedes in Europe...
Elon also said Norway was next after USA and Canada wide release, and here we are.

 

[Midpack]

Lots of wishful thinking it seems, but I can understand why people thought we’d have something close to actual full self driving by now between Elon’s statements and lots of early progress by Waymo and others. Turns out the edge cases and endless variables are much harder than expected. I’ve watched some of the 11.3.1 beta videos and they’re pretty impressive, but still a few alarming errors - that show where the car can’t “see“ well enough like cross traffic at speed.

 

[Bouba]

Lots of wishful thinking it seems, but I can understand why people thought we’d have something close to actual full self driving by now between Elon’s statements and lots of early progress by Waymo and others. Turns out the edge cases and endless variables are much harder than expected. I’ve watched some of the 11.3.1 beta videos and they’re pretty impressive, but still a few alarming errors - that show where the car can’t “see“ well enough like cross traffic at speed.

And that probably won’t be resolved until the new cameras are fitted... and I haven’t read anywhere that the first cars fitted with HW4 will be retrofitted with extra cameras when they come on stream. I think we have to accept that while software is upgradable hardware isn’t.....I never heard of a case where the owners of older cars demanded that their cars be retrofitted with passenger seats without lumbar

 

[dansev]

All I want is a one time transfer .... FSD is what keeps me from upgrading (though just keeping the '18 3 for my kids when they are old enough to drive in 5 years is enticing).

This is a really reasonable thing for Tesla to offer for those of us who purchased FSD. Until they release working software, just let us push the feature to any new Tesla we buy. Simple, cheap solution to keep many of us from screaming, "Lawsuit!"

 

[EVNow]

This is a really reasonable thing for Tesla to offer for those of us who purchased FSD. Until they release working software, just let us push the feature to any new Tesla we buy. Simple, cheap solution to keep many of us from screaming, "Lawsuit!"

But, as a long time TSLA investor, I can understand why they won't let us transfer.

 

[dansev]

Disclaimer: this is not legal advice and I do love my Model 3!

While I am an attorney, I'm not going to claim to be some kind of expert in this situation. In fact, I don't really practice much. That said, If I'm sitting in my office, and a guy walks in with the following story, backed up by written evidence, I'm taking the case. Easy money.

Customer went into local lawn mower shop. Salesperson said there is a new electric mower that, for now, can cut in a straight line, on its own, with you simply walking behind it. BUT...soon you will be able to just sit back, in an Adirondack chair, watching the mower mow your entire lawn without you doing anything. All you will need to do is upgrade the firmware in the mower...soon. You pay $5,000 for the mower, and another $1,000 for the Full Self Mowing capability that is coming soon. And the value of this will actually go up, because soon you will be able to mow other people's lawns without lifting a finger so everyone will want it.

A few years later, the customer still doesn't have the upgrade. Some people with this mower have a beta version that sort of works, and is fun to play with, but require so much supervision that it's just easier to mow the lawn the old fashioned way. It most certainly does not mow the lawn without countless interventions and because of that, relatively few people actually are allowed to download the firmware.

I'm rifling off a Chapter 93A Demand Letter, fully expecting to march right into small claims court 30 days later, filing a 93A consumer protection action. And I am fully expecting to win double and maybe triple damages, along with attorney's fees unless the lawn mower dealer makes a reasonable offer of settlement, which would basically be refunding the $1,000 at a minimum.

The only difference between this hypothetical and my Model 3 with FSD, is that the owner of Tesla is not the local shop owner, but the world's richest man. Unfortunately that's a really big difference.

 

[EVNow]

The only difference between this hypothetical and my Model 3 with FSD, is that the owner of Tesla is not the local shop owner, but the world's richest man. Unfortunately that's a really big difference.

What role, if any, would these parts play ? Would legally these matter or not really ...
- Clear written note saying they are still working on the feature and need government approval etc
- Nobody else has the feature even though dozens of companies have spent billions working on it
- Tesla continues to work on it pouring hundreds of millions every year

To me as an Engineer, all these play a big part in how I look at it (also I did my home work and knew this was basically a long shot science project when I bought FSD).

 

[dramsey]

I think we have to accept that while software is upgradable hardware isn’t.....I never heard of a case where the owners of older cars demanded that their cars be retrofitted with passenger seats without lumbar

Except that Tesla has had lots of hardware upgrades. FSD purchasers with HW 2/2.5 cars got free camera and computer upgrades. I upgraded my 2016 Model S's MCU1 to MCU2 ($2500), even though Elon had previously said he thought this wouldn't be offered.

Granted it does look like HW4 won't be an offered upgrade...but you never know.

 

[Dewg]

Disclaimer: this is not legal advice and I do love my Model 3!

While I am an attorney, I'm not going to claim to be some kind of expert in this situation. In fact, I don't really practice much. That said, If I'm sitting in my office, and a guy walks in with the following story, backed up by written evidence, I'm taking the case. Easy money.

Customer went into local lawn mower shop. Salesperson said there is a new electric mower that, for now, can cut in a straight line, on its own, with you simply walking behind it. BUT...soon you will be able to just sit back, in an Adirondack chair, watching the mower mow your entire lawn without you doing anything. All you will need to do is upgrade the firmware in the mower...soon. You pay $5,000 for the mower, and another $1,000 for the Full Self Mowing capability that is coming soon. And the value of this will actually go up, because soon you will be able to mow other people's lawns without lifting a finger so everyone will want it.

A few years later, the customer still doesn't have the upgrade. Some people with this mower have a beta version that sort of works, and is fun to play with, but require so much supervision that it's just easier to mow the lawn the old fashioned way. It most certainly does not mow the lawn without countless interventions and because of that, relatively few people actually are allowed to download the firmware.

I'm rifling off a Chapter 93A Demand Letter, fully expecting to march right into small claims court 30 days later, filing a 93A consumer protection action. And I am fully expecting to win double and maybe triple damages, along with attorney's fees unless the lawn mower dealer makes a reasonable offer of settlement, which would basically be refunding the $1,000 at a minimum.

The only difference between this hypothetical and my Model 3 with FSD, is that the owner of Tesla is not the local shop owner, but the world's richest man. Unfortunately that's a really big difference.

A few people here have indicated that it's already happening in small claims courts.

 

[dansev]

But, as a long time TSLA investor, I can understand why they won't let us transfer.

Why? I don't really understand. I think Tesla *makes* money on that offer. Many of us would consider upgrading if FSD moves to my new Tesla. It's a strong incentive. And it really doesn't cost them anything. Does it?

What role, if any, would these parts play ? Would legally these matter or not really ...
- Clear written note saying they are still working on the feature and need government approval etc
- Nobody else has the feature even though dozens of companies have spent billions working on it
- Tesla continues to work on it pouring hundreds of millions every year

To me as an Engineer, all these play a big part in how I look at it (also I did my home work and knew this was basically a long shot science project when I bought FSD).

My thoughts are that “working on it” is becoming moot as the car gets older and older. Mine has about 76,000 miles. Soon I’m out of all warranty. Feels like there’s some kind of milestone there.

The other two points are legally meaningless, I think.

 

[Bouba]

Disclaimer: this is not legal advice and I do love my Model 3!

While I am an attorney, I'm not going to claim to be some kind of expert in this situation. In fact, I don't really practice much. That said, If I'm sitting in my office, and a guy walks in with the following story, backed up by written evidence, I'm taking the case. Easy money.

Customer went into local lawn mower shop. Salesperson said there is a new electric mower that, for now, can cut in a straight line, on its own, with you simply walking behind it. BUT...soon you will be able to just sit back, in an Adirondack chair, watching the mower mow your entire lawn without you doing anything. All you will need to do is upgrade the firmware in the mower...soon. You pay $5,000 for the mower, and another $1,000 for the Full Self Mowing capability that is coming soon. And the value of this will actually go up, because soon you will be able to mow other people's lawns without lifting a finger so everyone will want it.

A few years later, the customer still doesn't have the upgrade. Some people with this mower have a beta version that sort of works, and is fun to play with, but require so much supervision that it's just easier to mow the lawn the old fashioned way. It most certainly does not mow the lawn without countless interventions and because of that, relatively few people actually are allowed to download the firmware.

I'm rifling off a Chapter 93A Demand Letter, fully expecting to march right into small claims court 30 days later, filing a 93A consumer protection action. And I am fully expecting to win double and maybe triple damages, along with attorney's fees unless the lawn mower dealer makes a reasonable offer of settlement, which would basically be refunding the $1,000 at a minimum.

The only difference between this hypothetical and my Model 3 with FSD, is that the owner of Tesla is not the local shop owner, but the world's richest man. Unfortunately that's a really big difference.

Great advice...just out of interest, if it’s so open and shut..why isn’t Erin Brockovich rounding up clients as we speak ?

 

[dansev]

Except that Tesla has had lots of hardware upgrades. FSD purchasers with HW 2/2.5 cars got free camera and computer upgrades. I upgraded my 2016 Model S's MCU1 to MCU2 ($2500), even though Elon had previously said he thought this wouldn't be offered.

Granted it does look like HW4 won't be an offered upgrade...but you never know.

I would argue that’s completely irrelevant to a lawsuit. Did they provide what was contracted for? No. They provided other stuff. That’s nice. But doesn’t fulfill their obligations.

 

[stopcrazypp]

A few people here have indicated that it's already happening in small claims courts.

There's already a lawsuit working its way through court. Basically Tesla's argument is it was an aspirational statement and they made it clear the uncertainty and difficulty of it (including the possibility of it never getting approved by regulators in certain jurisdictions). Also pointed out no specific timeline was promised (Tesla previously settled a similar AP2 lawsuit because for that one Tesla actually did promise a date right on the order page, something they didn't do for FSD features).

Tesla on self-driving claims: ‘failure to realize long-term, aspirational goal is not fraud’

Tesla, defending itself in a lawsuit over self-driving claims, said, “Mere failure to realize a long-term, aspirational goal is not fraud.”

electrek.co

 

[IronCoffee_Max]

Disclaimer: this is not legal advice and I do love my Model 3!

While I am an attorney, I'm not going to claim to be some kind of expert in this situation. In fact, I don't really practice much. That said, If I'm sitting in my office, and a guy walks in with the following story, backed up by written evidence, I'm taking the case. Easy money.

Customer went into local lawn mower shop. Salesperson said there is a new electric mower that, for now, can cut in a straight line, on its own, with you simply walking behind it. BUT...soon you will be able to just sit back, in an Adirondack chair, watching the mower mow your entire lawn without you doing anything. All you will need to do is upgrade the firmware in the mower...soon. You pay $5,000 for the mower, and another $1,000 for the Full Self Mowing capability that is coming soon. And the value of this will actually go up, because soon you will be able to mow other people's lawns without lifting a finger so everyone will want it.

A few years later, the customer still doesn't have the upgrade. Some people with this mower have a beta version that sort of works, and is fun to play with, but require so much supervision that it's just easier to mow the lawn the old fashioned way. It most certainly does not mow the lawn without countless interventions and because of that, relatively few people actually are allowed to download the firmware.

I'm rifling off a Chapter 93A Demand Letter, fully expecting to march right into small claims court 30 days later, filing a 93A consumer protection action. And I am fully expecting to win double and maybe triple damages, along with attorney's fees unless the lawn mower dealer makes a reasonable offer of settlement, which would basically be refunding the $1,000 at a minimum.

The only difference between this hypothetical and my Model 3 with FSD, is that the owner of Tesla is not the local shop owner, but the world's richest man. Unfortunately that's a really big difference.

A few nits:
1. I can see this working from a small claims court process here or there - but I think the real issue is from a class action POV it's a lot harder
2. The fact that almost anyone can get it now is a difference from "some people"
3. It's not hard to find that "for some people they require countless interventions", but also not hard to find "for some people there are almost no interventions at all" showing that in fact, the software does work as advertised for some people, but hasn't been properly scaled yet to everyone.

 

[LiamPope]

Disclaimer: this is not legal advice and I do love my Model 3!

While I am an attorney, I'm not going to claim to be some kind of expert in this situation. In fact, I don't really practice much. That said, If I'm sitting in my office, and a guy walks in with the following story, backed up by written evidence, I'm taking the case. Easy money.

Customer went into local lawn mower shop. Salesperson said there is a new electric mower that, for now, can cut in a straight line, on its own, with you simply walking behind it. BUT...soon you will be able to just sit back, in an Adirondack chair, watching the mower mow your entire lawn without you doing anything. All you will need to do is upgrade the firmware in the mower...soon. You pay $5,000 for the mower, and another $1,000 for the Full Self Mowing capability that is coming soon. And the value of this will actually go up, because soon you will be able to mow other people's lawns without lifting a finger so everyone will want it.

A few years later, the customer still doesn't have the upgrade. Some people with this mower have a beta version that sort of works, and is fun to play with, but require so much supervision that it's just easier to mow the lawn the old fashioned way. It most certainly does not mow the lawn without countless interventions and because of that, relatively few people actually are allowed to download the firmware.

I'm rifling off a Chapter 93A Demand Letter, fully expecting to march right into small claims court 30 days later, filing a 93A consumer protection action. And I am fully expecting to win double and maybe triple damages, along with attorney's fees unless the lawn mower dealer makes a reasonable offer of settlement, which would basically be refunding the $1,000 at a minimum.

The only difference between this hypothetical and my Model 3 with FSD, is that the owner of Tesla is not the local shop owner, but the world's richest man. Unfortunately that's a really big difference.

Does it change things if the promises of Full Self Mowing coming soon were just in speeches and Tweets by the mower company's eccentric CEO, and not in any official advertising?

 

[EVNow]

Why? I don't really understand. I think Tesla *makes* money on that offer. Many of us would consider upgrading if FSD moves to my new Tesla. It's a strong incentive. And it really doesn't cost them anything. Does it?

If they can’t move cars they could do this as an incentive- but they don’t have much problem selling cars now. So, there is no reason to give this incentive.

I can see them giving some credit for having FSD to move cars at the end of a quarter at some point - I don’t think they will ever transfer - on old terms or new. May be one year of subscription?

The other two points are legally meaningless, I think.

Shouldn’t there be some difference between saying
- you get this feature when you buy now
- we are working on a feature with no definite timeline to come sometime in the future

 

[Bouba]

So how many would be satisfied if FSD was transferable ?
What if there were caveat...for example one transfer per customer rather than FSD following you for life ?
Or..if it was transferable to a new car..but you had to pay the balance to reflect the latest pricing ?
Or do people really just want their money back ?