Yeah, that's a real clanger. Along with "lighter than air". Yeah, that means it's expensive to compress and to contain safely. It's known as turning a problem into a "feature".
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Toyota 'Mirai' Fuel Cell Sedan
- Thread starter ivog
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- Electric Vehicles
Yeah, that's a real clanger. Along with "lighter than air". Yeah, that means it's expensive to compress and to contain safely. It's known as turning a problem into a "feature".
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
only 300 miles a tank, that is such a drawback vs the Gen II 2005 Prius in my garage downstairs. It'll do 500 miles tank no problem and I don't have to look for a special place to refuel.
Still I like my Nissan Leaf better because I can refuel at nearly infinitely more places, most importantly I can refuel at work and home so I don't go out of my way to refuel.
Somehow they've taken the worst of all worlds and put it in one car. It gets less range than my gas car, has less places to fill up than either gas or electric, costs more per mile to drive. Do not want.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
"Hydrogen is Everywhere" natural gas is extracted
"Hydrogen is Everywhere" there's fracking.
"Hydrogen is Everywhere" you don't mind wasting twice as much energy to extract it from water vs. storing in a battery.
"Hydrogen is Everywhere."
Except at home in your garage.
"Hydrogen is Everywhere" there's fracking.
"Hydrogen is Everywhere" you don't mind wasting twice as much energy to extract it from water vs. storing in a battery.
"Hydrogen is Everywhere."
Except at home in your garage.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
"Hydrogen is a domestic fuel". What do they mean?
I know it has traditionally been common to use gasoline, diesel, kerosene, lamp oil, and other liquid hydrocarbons + hydrocarbon gases such as butane (and other varieties of natural gas extracts) etc. as domestic fuels (cars, lawn mowers, leaf blowers, burners, barbecues, lamps) but where is the precedent for calling hydrogen (I assume they must mean compressed H2 as that's what the car gets fueled with) a "domestic fuel"?
I know it has traditionally been common to use gasoline, diesel, kerosene, lamp oil, and other liquid hydrocarbons + hydrocarbon gases such as butane (and other varieties of natural gas extracts) etc. as domestic fuels (cars, lawn mowers, leaf blowers, burners, barbecues, lamps) but where is the precedent for calling hydrogen (I assume they must mean compressed H2 as that's what the car gets fueled with) a "domestic fuel"?
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Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
:redface:
Thanks. All though it would only be domestic to natural gas producing countries I figure...
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
"domestic" is a commonly used US marketing term. Don't be embarrassed if you aren't bombarded with Made in USA advertising.
but then US writers use the "domestic fuel" tag in relations to other countries as well
Oil Nations See Chance to Reduce Domestic Fuel Subsidies - WSJ
Still in a country like yours you might not see as much focus on domestic vs imported?
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
The focus is weak here. I do understand the focus in the US though, seeing how oil has been a major factor in all the wars the US have fought since 1980.
If you ask me Oil is oil, gas is gas. The market is an international one.
Besides the atmosphere wasn't informed about national borders.
dhanson865
Well-Known Member
+1, "oil is oil" is known by the technical term "fungibility".
Fungibility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It's why most people don't care who supplies their gas or electricity, it just works.
But there is a heavy disconnect between I don't care where it comes from and I care if we run out or I care if the price is too high. The arguments here in the US focus on domestic vs foreign for predictable stable availability and pricing.
I'd just have to say Toyota is playing a marketing card using a term that previously had weight in political arena hoping it still has weight. But it's an empty comparison since gasoline and electricity (the two competing fuels) are easier to get just about anywhere in the US. So I'm thinking it'd have to be someone really stupid to think hydrogen would somehow be a more available domestic fuel.
How about we modify it to say
Sunlight is lighter than air
Sunlight is a domestic fuel
since they sent that invite to people in California with tons of Solar PV in plain view all over the state.
Interesting video below of the Mirai being made. Shows the intricacy of the design which is what I enjoyed regardless that I think it will be some what of a failure. The two tanks, fuel cell, and battery take up a lot of room. I do wonder how much Toyota is losing on each vehicle? It is extremely complex.
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I have to recognise there are great engineering skills behind the Mirai. When you look ate both the Mirai and Model S video, it's clear that these two cars comes from different worlds (putting asside the energy technology in itself). The shear complexity of the system and the overall design of the Mirai is the opposite of Tesla approach and this is were Tesla shines. Simple is better and at this stage I just can't see any reason why the fuel cell would have a future. But history shows us that lobby can take over reason, so we'll see...
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
My god. They keep putting more and more into the car. What is all that stuff??? So much complexity in the power and drive train. So much to break.
Also, what is the rectangular object being installed at 3:11? Is that a battery pack?
Also, what is the rectangular object being installed at 3:11? Is that a battery pack?
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
Looks to be, it has a NiMH battery pack to aid in acceleration. The FC cannot provide enough power for comparable ICE acceleration.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
A battery pack or super-capacitor is required regardless of output power in order to store energy from regenerative braking.
I think it's less about power output than about timing - as in, I believe it takes several seconds for the fuel cell to go from 0 output to 100% or back to 0 - so they need a battery pack to handle instant transitions while the fuel cell catches up.
The part I've never understood is why they don't take the range extender approach to it...
To the best of my knowledge, the fuel cell is still by far the most expensive part of the FCEV power train. If they give the car a somewhat larger battery pack, they should be able to cut the fuel cell size by half or more, because they only have to meet the average demand instead of the peak (and as above, they can't really meet all the peaks with the fuel cell anyway, at least not immediately.) This should result in a lighter, cheaper overall package with the same performance.
A step further, and it can become a FCEREV - basically like an i3 with a fuel cell stack and hydrogen tank instead of a scooter engine and gas tank, charging from the wall for daily use and using the fuel cell for long trips or places without plugs.
(This is the only from of FCEV that seems to make any sense at all to me - and it only works for efficiency/economics if there's cheap natural gas that was going to be consumed for electricity/transportation anyway.)
Walter
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
The issue with this model is that you can't actually make any money from the sale of H2. You'd be building out a billion dollar infrastructure that wouldn't be profitable. Who would build out an infrastructure that would cost FAR more to maintain than they would actually ever hope to get out of it?
green1
Active Member
The government.
Make no mistake, Toyota has no plans to build out the infrastructure, they plan to get your tax dollars to pay for it. This is the biggest issue I have with FCVs, if people want to waste their money on more complex, more dangerous vehicles that are worse in every single way to an EV, that's their choice, but if they want to spend my money to do it, that I can't stand!
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
That's the biggest issue I see too. Making a PHEV based on fuel cells will drastically reduce hydrogen demand so that the stations are practically never going to be financially sustainable.
Also the whole point of a PHEV is to use a readily available fuel so that you can go across the country without worries. Hydrogen is obviously not that fuel.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/14/toyota-sell-30000-fuel-cell-vehicles-a-year-by-2020/
According to autoblog Toyota expects to sell 30k FCEV per year no later than 2020.
So now we have two yardsticks to measure Toyota's fuel cell success.
How many BEVs Tesla sells and 30k units in 2020.
According to autoblog Toyota expects to sell 30k FCEV per year no later than 2020.
So now we have two yardsticks to measure Toyota's fuel cell success.
How many BEVs Tesla sells and 30k units in 2020.
Tesla already sold more than 30K last year, 2014, only after two years of initial Model S release. Toyota still plans to have a lot of hybrids and some PHEVs in 2020.
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