Track camber: arms vs coilovers

[destructure00]

Ordered a DIY alignment kit today, hoping this works out ok.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00PKI0YSU

Figured this was easier than trying to work with a shop to get street and track alignments with turns/adjustments to go between them.

Alignment kit arrives Wednesday. Arms arrive Thursday. Leaving for BW Friday late morning......nothing like throwing things together at the last second

 

[MasterC17]

nothing like throwing things together at the last second

Story of my life haha! Just double-check to make sure everything is tight. I usually use a sharpie or paint-pen. You don't want to rush and forget something.

 

[destructure00]

Story of my life haha! Just double-check to make sure everything is tight. I usually use a sharpie or paint-pen. You don't want to rush and forget something.

Thanks for the reminder...do you mark your track and street adjustment locations? That's what I was thinking.

 

[MasterC17]

Thanks for the reminder...do you mark your track and street adjustment locations? That's what I was thinking.

I just leave it on "track" settings all the time, so-to-speak, but marking the different locations with different colored paint-pens would be a great idea. Would make for easy and repeatable adjustments! Again, I haven't really noticed a downside to driving with increased camber. I thought it would negatively impact range but I really did not notice a difference.

 

[destructure00]

Tried my hand at aligning the rear tonight.

Measured before starting:
Left Camber: -1.2
Right Camber: -1.2
Total toe: 0.16 (unable to measure individual sides with the DIY kit, only total)
Camber spec is -2 to 0
Toe spec is 0.10 to 0.70

2 turns on each of the rear camber arms got me the following:
Left Camber: -2.3
Right Camber: -2.25
At this point, I measured toe to be -1.35 degrees
Played around with the toe adjusters and got it back to 0.30

At this point I was feeling pretty good. I had marked original positions before changing anything, and then marked new positions.

Then I put everything back to where it was. Took the two turns out of the camber arms, turned the toe eccentrics back to their original position. Measured again just to see. Camber was back to original spec but toe was 0.60 degrees instead of the original 0.16 degrees. After 2 more rounds of tweaking and measuring I finally gave up with it at 0.42 degrees (still within the 0.10 to 0.70 spec) but I can't for the life of me figure out why it's not back to the original 0.16. Now I'm questioning if I marked one of the sides wrong or something, but without being able to measure individual sides there's not much else I can do except take it to a shop. Am I being overly picky about this? Since it's in spec does it even matter?

 

[beastmode13]

Tried my hand at aligning the rear tonight.

Measured before starting:
Left Camber: -1.2
Right Camber: -1.2
Total toe: 0.16 (unable to measure individual sides with the DIY kit, only total)
Camber spec is -2 to 0
Toe spec is 0.10 to 0.70

2 turns on each of the rear camber arms got me the following:
Left Camber: -2.3
Right Camber: -2.25
At this point, I measured toe to be -1.35 degrees
Played around with the toe adjusters and got it back to 0.30

At this point I was feeling pretty good. I had marked original positions before changing anything, and then marked new positions.

View attachment 515623 View attachment 515624

Then I put everything back to where it was. Took the two turns out of the camber arms, turned the toe eccentrics back to their original position. Measured again just to see. Camber was back to original spec but toe was 0.60 degrees instead of the original 0.16 degrees. After 2 more rounds of tweaking and measuring I finally gave up with it at 0.42 degrees (still within the 0.10 to 0.70 spec) but I can't for the life of me figure out why it's not back to the original 0.16. Now I'm questioning if I marked one of the sides wrong or something, but without being able to measure individual sides there's not much else I can do except take it to a shop. Am I being overly picky about this? Since it's in spec does it even matter?

I would just leave the rear in track setting and forget about it. Any impact to efficiency, if any would be minimal. The stock eccentric bolt for toe adjustment has lots of play, it lacks the precision for repeatability. If you really want to dial it in, getting a MPP arm is the only way to go. Not having individual angle is not ideal, it could mean one side is -.10, while the other is .52, as an extreme example. I’ve seen people use strings or measuring tape to extend the wheel plane from front to rear, this would give you some sense of individual toe.

A few of us have the rear camber set and leave it at 1.8 to 2.0 for track and street. The front with FUCA, is where you would want to switch between street and track settings.

 

[MasterC17]

I would just leave the rear in track setting and forget about it. Any impact to efficiency, if any would be minimal. The stock eccentric bolt for toe adjustment has lots of play, it lacks the precision for repeatability. If you really want to dial it in, getting a MPP arm is the only way to go. Not having individual angle is not ideal, it could mean one side is -.10, while the other is .52, as an extreme example. I’ve seen people use strings or measuring tape to extend the wheel plane from front to rear, this would give you some sense of individual toe.

A few of us have the rear camber set and leave it at 1.8 to 2.0 for track and street. The front with FUCA, is where you would want to switch between street and track settings.

That's exactly what I was thinking as I was looking at the photos. The stock eccentric bolt is a PITA as far as repeatability is concerned. You would really want to invest in toe arms to make this easier so you don't have to mess with that bolt. MPP Toe Arms would make this process a lot cleaner, but I would also recommend starting with an alignment performed on a machine for a base-line. Like @beastmode13 said, you could have wildly different toe values on each side which is not good.

FWIW, there is a common misconception that camber causes uneven tire wear. Unless at extremes, this is largely untrue. Toe is what causes uneven tire wear. Having excessive toe causes the tire to effectively drag/grind along the road surface. Basically, I wouldn't be too worried about leaving the rear camber at the track setting.

Last, I would recommend .15 degrees of rear toe for the street and .25 degrees for the track.

 

[destructure00]

Thanks guys. With how easy the MPP arms are to adjust, I went ahead and ordered the rear toe arms.

I found a shop that will align to my specs, so once the arms arrive I'll adjust camber front and rear to where I want it, then take it for alignment. Will mark locations, then adjust camber to street, and have them align again and mark locations.

When I was making adjustments last night it was less than 5 minutes per side when I had the tires off already. I swap track tires for track days already, so adding a couple minute adjustment per corner is no big deal.

I've been tracking my FUCAs and it looks like they went out in 2 separate boxes. One of the boxes got hung up in customs for a few hours leaving Canada, so now one arm is coming today and the other tomorrow. Unless tomorrow's shows up first thing in the morning (not likely), I won't have time to put them in and align the car prior to leaving for TC8, so all this prep is for naught at this point.

 

[MasterC17]

Unless tomorrow's shows up first thing in the morning (not likely), I won't have time to put them in and align the car prior to leaving for TC8, so all this prep is for naught at this point.

As long as you are having fun and come back home with the car in one piece I would consider that a win! There's always next event

 

[destructure00]

As long as you are having fun and come back home with the car in one piece I would consider that a win! There's always next event

Yes, true! Tomorrow morning should be relatively mellow now instead of trying to rush to install parts and align the car before rushing out the door.

 

[MountainPass]

Thanks guys. With how easy the MPP arms are to adjust, I went ahead and ordered the rear toe arms.

I found a shop that will align to my specs, so once the arms arrive I'll adjust camber front and rear to where I want it, then take it for alignment. Will mark locations, then adjust camber to street, and have them align again and mark locations.

When I was making adjustments last night it was less than 5 minutes per side when I had the tires off already. I swap track tires for track days already, so adding a couple minute adjustment per corner is no big deal.

I've been tracking my FUCAs and it looks like they went out in 2 separate boxes. One of the boxes got hung up in customs for a few hours leaving Canada, so now one arm is coming today and the other tomorrow. Unless tomorrow's shows up first thing in the morning (not likely), I won't have time to put them in and align the car prior to leaving for TC8, so all this prep is for naught at this point.

Ugh of all the FUCA orders that was the one that I didn't want to get hung up in customs Rechecked the tracking and I still have hope!

 

[destructure00]

Ugh of all the FUCA orders that was the one that I didn't want to get hung up in customs Rechecked the tracking and I still have hope!

No worries, it was my choice to ship ground instead of something faster. Thanks again for getting them out so quickly!

 

[beastmode13]

Last, I would recommend .15 degrees of rear toe for the street and .25 degrees for the track.

Toe In or Toe Out? Sorry, I’ve not memorized my positive/negative value translation to in/out.

 

[jmarcos]

So @destructure00, do you recommend the alignment kit? Sounds useful as a double check after a full alignment and for minor adjustments to/from the track.

For example, I installed the rear arms last weekend, took it a normal alignment shop so I could still drive while waiting for the MPP FUCAs to arrive, to then do a final alignment. But even though I wrote down the rear camber and toe that I wanted, the guy did the toe in inches rather than a degrees! (the computer printout does not show degrees) Still in spec, but way off target.

 

[destructure00]

Toe In or Toe Out? Sorry, I’ve not memorized my positive/negative value translation to in/out.

Toe in is positive, out is negative.

So @destructure00, do you recommend the alignment kit? Sounds useful as a double check after a full alignment and for minor adjustments to/from the track.

For example, I installed the rear arms last weekend, took it a normal alignment shop so I could still drive while waiting for the MPP FUCAs to arrive, to then do a final alignment. But even though I wrote down the rear camber and toe that I wanted, the guy did the toe in inches rather than a degrees! (the computer printout does not show degrees) Still in spec, but way off target.

The main shortfall (which pretty much any DIY kit will have) is the inability to measure individual toe per side. There are ways around it as @beastmode13 mentioned above, basically needing a fixed point of reference that's the same on both sides of the car so you can measure both total toe and make sure that each side's toe measurement matches the other.

Other than that, the kit seems well built. Camber measurement is simple, although not hands-free. Toe measurement with the included tape measures is straightforward and was repeatable even after I moved the toe plates around. There's a handy inches-to-degrees conversion chart included too.

There's instructions included on how to measure caster as well, but since I was just playing with the rear alignment last night I didn't get into that at all.

So if all that fits your needs, then yes I'd recommend it. They also sell just a camber/caster gauge for $140 if you don't need the toe plates.

 

[destructure00]

One lonely FUCA and....a freaking unfixable flat tire!

Took it to Discount, unfixable...nothing in stock. Got it over to Tesla SC about 15 minutes before they closed today, picking up replacement tomorrow morning. So I guess either way I'm throwing things together at the last second lmao.

Also got a ship notice for the rear toe arms today, that was fast @MountainPass!! You guys rock!

 

[beastmode13]

One lonely FUCA and....a freaking unfixable flat tire!

Took it to Discount, unfixable...nothing in stock. Got it over to Tesla SC about 15 minutes before they closed today, picking up replacement tomorrow morning. So I guess either way I'm throwing things together at the last second lmao.

Also got a ship notice for the rear toe arms today, that was fast @MountainPass!! You guys rock!

View attachment 515906

At least your single FUCA came in a fancy box.

 

[MountainPass]

One lonely FUCA and....a freaking unfixable flat tire!

Took it to Discount, unfixable...nothing in stock. Got it over to Tesla SC about 15 minutes before they closed today, picking up replacement tomorrow morning. So I guess either way I'm throwing things together at the last second lmao.

Also got a ship notice for the rear toe arms today, that was fast @MountainPass!! You guys rock!

View attachment 515906

We are just going to tape the boxes together from now on, it isn't worth them getting split up!

 

[destructure00]

Got some @MountainPass goodies to install this weekend. Also going to give the DIY alignment another shot, got an idea on how to make sure toe is the same on both sides.

 

[beastmode13]

Got some @MountainPass goodies to install this weekend. Also going to give the DIY alignment another shot, got an idea on how to make sure toe is the same on both sides.
View attachment 518527

Why are you getting fancy boxes? All mine came in generic brown boxes.