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Tracking P85D delivery thread

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#3,501
Hmbldr1 said:
The way I look at it Elon musk tweeted it would be close to the P85 after the update. I have accepted his commitment and based on that have decided to move forward with the purchase. Either way I win. If he is correct, I get the car I love. If he doesn't I'll get a free car as damages for misrepresentation and fraud.
Click to expand...

I'm hoping it doesn't come to anything legal, honestly... but by the same token I'm not going to indefinitely accept a product that is worse than my previous one. I'll give them a chance to make it right, one way or another. I'm thankful they were able to get the car to me before the end of the year so that I didn't have to cancel. (That was really in their best interest since they would have completely lost the sale otherwise.) But my patience does have its limits.

- - - Updated - - -

randompersonx said:
I pass 3 superchargers on the trip without any detour, so I have plenty of options for charging up, but it shouldn't have been necessary.

As far as weather -- I am driving around Florida in the wintertime -- which is as far as I understand the most ideal weather.
Click to expand...

Ah yeah, Florida. Florida is kind of littered with superchargers now. :)
 
#3,502
JRP3 said:
Absolutely, terrible communication from Tesla, again. From black holes to range-gate the PD roll out has been a bit of a mess.
Click to expand...

All... I have not had the privilege in my life to buy from Ferrari, Porsche, McLaren and the other high end ICE mfrs.... and from the more mass-produced group like VAG and Daimler AG, which I have, I've never seen anything quite like Tesla. Even when I did, I got the car sitting on the lot, that was designed four years ago to be .0003% better than the one designed five years ago.

I get that there are MASSIVE opportunities for improvement, but bottom line - as a now happy P85D recipient - they DID pull it off. The car is real. The acceleration is out of this world. It is comfortable, quiet, and "greener" than anything else that isn't hand-built I've seen on the planet yet. This is my first Tesla, and I now get the whole "grin" thing.

I hope all of you get your cars as New Year's present, and all of us get some software updates for better efficiency... and I think you will agree they pulled off a HELL of a stunt. There are a lot of other car manufacturers that are in some HOT water now that they realized it is NOT impossible to do what Tesla is doing. Lets give them some support for what they managed to do in an industry that moves as slow as molasses. It is a SUPERB feat of engineering.
 
#3,504
Dbitter1 said:
All... I have not had the privilege in my life to buy from Ferrari, Porsche, McLaren and the other high end ICE mfrs.... and from the more mass-produced group like VAG and Daimler AG, which I have, I've never seen anything quite like Tesla. Even when I did, I got the car sitting on the lot, that was designed four years ago to be .0003% better than the one designed five years ago.

I get that there are MASSIVE opportunities for improvement, but bottom line - as a now happy P85D recipient - they DID pull it off. The car is real. The acceleration is out of this world. It is comfortable, quiet, and "greener" than anything else that isn't hand-built I've seen on the planet yet. This is my first Tesla, and I now get the whole "grin" thing.

I hope all of you get your cars as New Year's present, and all of us get some software updates for better efficiency... and I think you will agree they pulled off a HELL of a stunt. There are a lot of other car manufacturers that are in some HOT water now that they realized it is NOT impossible to do what Tesla is doing. Lets give them some support for what they managed to do in an industry that moves as slow as molasses. It is a SUPERB feat of engineering.
Click to expand...

I have had the privilege to buy cars from Porsche, and honestly, their updates from the 997.1 to 997.2 (PDK, Direct Fuel Injection), and 997.2 to 991 (a lot...), it's very clear that it is far more than a .0003% improvement. No company is perfect, and Porsche has their flaws too, but these sorts of major "bait and switch" changes (range, seats) simply are not an issue there.

As far as Green-ness, honestly, P85D with the current efficiency numbers does not look very green to me. If you are unaware, the EPA MPGe ratings are inflated to make numbers look better, as they only count kwh delivered from the outlet, but do not consider inefficiency at the power plant (which is likely only 50%). When you factor in the energy required to build these batteries and aluminum chassis, the car simply needs to have great efficiency to justify it's energy cost of production.

That said, I didn't order the car for green-ness as my primary reason -- I ordered it because of glowing recommendations from other owners who said their experience has been great (and mine hasn't been through the ordering process), and because of the claimed metrics (performance AND a reasonable range). Sure my Porsche may have low fuel efficiency, but it's got a reasonable size tank, and I can easily fill it up in under 5 minutes. Superchargers are great, but I shouldn't HAVE to use one for a 200 mile 70mph drive.

I know this sounds very negative, but I am still hopeful that Tesla will put out an appropriate update soon and make things right, and I am planning on accepting delivery on Friday -- but this has got to be one of the worst delivery experiences I've ever had on any car. From the looks of it, I won't even get a "Oh, sorry, we don't have the seats you ordered, and the range is 100 miles less than we originally said on the website when you ordered!" Instead, I will have to point out the lack of new seats, ask for them to put it in writing that they will fix it, and wait for an update on the range thing. I highly doubt my DS will even mention the range issue. When I mentioned the delays and the seat issues to my DS, he said something like "Oh, just because people post it on forums doesn't make it true!". I do not appreciate being treated like an idiot. I'm fairly sure TMC is not just a giant conspiracy to tarnish Tesla's great work.

Wk057 and others have gone on road trips immediately after delivery, and were blind-sighted by much longer charging times for the same distance covered.

I was originally planning on doing a Fremont delivery and driving cross country to Miami. Thank god I didn't do that.
 
#3,506
Best car ever made, yet this thread is filled with endless whining. People should just take their money elsewhere if they don't like what Tesla is doing. It's a completely discretionary purchase. It's a really fun toy. It's also, like all high tech things, obsolete the day you get it. And the company is pushing so many limits at once that there will always be slip-ups in execution. If they didn't act until they could do so perfectly, you would get the same thing a year later, or never (see all other car companies).
 
#3,507
randompersonx said:
I have had the privilege to buy cars from Porsche, and honestly, their updates from the 997.1 to 997.2 (PDK, Direct Fuel Injection), and 997.2 to 991 (a lot...), it's very clear that it is far more than a .0003% improvement. No company is perfect, and Porsche has their flaws too, but these sorts of major "bait and switch" changes (range, seats) simply are not an issue there.

As far as Green-ness, honestly, P85D with the current efficiency numbers does not look very green to me. If you are unaware, the EPA MPGe ratings are inflated to make numbers look better, as they only count kwh delivered from the outlet, but do not consider inefficiency at the power plant (which is likely only 50%). When you factor in the energy required to build these batteries and aluminum chassis, the car simply needs to have great efficiency to justify it's energy cost of production.

That said, I didn't order the car for green-ness as my primary reason -- I ordered it because of glowing recommendations from other owners who said their experience has been great (and mine hasn't been through the ordering process), and because of the claimed metrics (performance AND a reasonable range). Sure my Porsche may have low fuel efficiency, but it's got a reasonable size tank, and I can easily fill it up in under 5 minutes. Superchargers are great, but I shouldn't HAVE to use one for a 200 mile 70mph drive.

I know this sounds very negative, but I am still hopeful that Tesla will put out an appropriate update soon and make things right, and I am planning on accepting delivery on Friday -- but this has got to be one of the worst delivery experiences I've ever had on any car. From the looks of it, I won't even get a "Oh, sorry, we don't have the seats you ordered, and the range is 100 miles less than we originally said on the website when you ordered!" Instead, I will have to point out the lack of new seats, ask for them to put it in writing that they will fix it, and wait for an update on the range thing. I highly doubt my DS will even mention the range issue. When I mentioned the delays and the seat issues to my DS, he said something like "Oh, just because people post it on forums doesn't make it true!". I do not appreciate being treated like an idiot. I'm fairly sure TMC is not just a giant conspiracy to tarnish Tesla's great work.

Wk057 and others have gone on road trips immediately after delivery, and were blind-sighted by much longer charging times for the same distance covered.

I was originally planning on doing a Fremont delivery and driving cross country to Miami. Thank god I didn't do that.
Click to expand...

I feel your pain but want to offer some additional perspective (I own a new 911 and the P85D).

First, the 911 or any custom order car from a high end supplier...that would be 4 months minimum and frankly all it would be is a black hole during the order process - they charge you through the nose for customizing and we eagerly wait for 4 months expecting this is simply part of the process. So, with this alone we are certainly holding Tesla to a MUCH higher standard than any other supplier. Second, comparing the release of the Model S that's been in production all of 2 years to a car that has been produced for 51 years has some gaps in the logical comparisons - yet, Porsche has similar issues in production just like Tesla; the Panamara is finally the car that they intended but not without its own growing pains (and Porsche is boutique like Tesla compared to others like BMW and MB). Yet with Porsche and their 40+ more years of experience the Model S is still being compared to the Panamara. And, finally, I have owned a LOT of cars (probably 50); I'm not a dealer but rather more of a fanatic and I have yet to come across one car that has delivered correctly on its promises on posted fuel consumption. Moreover, the gap is typically identical to what we are seeing right now in the advertised vs delivered energy ratings with the P85D.

Now, of course I would like to see this bump up into the reasonable range that we have seen in the past - it would of course make this car so much more useful. That said, I think that we seem to be holding this company and this car to a standard that is not the norm. Just my perspective...
 
#3,508
The tune was so far "I was promised a delivery on date so and so, and Tesla failed me"; it changed now to "I was promised this range and Tesla failed me". Why so much negativity? I would gladly switch places with you and drive a great new car through holidays - alas, mine will be delivered most likely after New Year...

I have ordered various cars (mostly German) and was told in the past that there are delays without any sort of explanation or alternate delivery dates.... Pretty much "it will be here when it will be here - feel free to call headquarters in Germany". My most recent BMW 650 failed on day 2 post delivery at a whopping 100 miles driven - it was among the first of the new generation sold in US. It was nowhere near the EPA rated mileage, good luck getting the values on the sticker even in "nanny" mode. It never upset me, because the car was beautiful and worked flawless after being fixed on day 2; I wanted a powerful car with spirited driving ability, and it was obvious to me I will pay the price at the gas station.

For those who want proven record, do not order the P85D - no one knows exactly how they work until they are in the wild. Best economy / safety / range / proven track record is S85 - but you will have to live with the somewhat sedate driving. If you want the thrill of a fast car, be prepared to pay the premium in cash and energy used, and put up with the initial quirks...
 
#3,509
skilly said:
Now, of course I would like to see this bump up into the reasonable range that we have seen in the past - it would of course make this car so much more useful. That said, I think that we seem to be holding this company and this car to a standard that is not the norm. Just my perspective...
Click to expand...

Elon Musk claims that he holds Tesla to a higher standard, because electric cars need to be BETTER than ICE cars to win in the market and get critical mass. If I am expecting more from Tesla, it's only because Tesla has promised things like "Delivered cars shouldn't just be as good as the concept, they should be better!" Tesla put out these numbers, not me.

Anyway, like I said, I am willing to gamble and hope things work out, and I still insist that communication about these issues is the biggest problem.
 
#3,510
.82 update:
- nothing visible has changed in this update except rated mile calculation. Full charge is now 250m. 90% charge is now 225.
- actual efficiency is unchanged.
- after 225 miles, 70 of them on 0.82, my lifetime wh/m is 386. This is where the car is converging for me.
- my actual Wh/m with my old tesla averaged 350/m. The D is 10% worse. I have 21" tires. Old tesla had 19"
- freeway driving does not seem to be where the D's range shined
- sport vs insane makes no difference to efficiency unless you get on the accelerator.

Car at is awesome overall. Very happy EXCEPT for the range
 
#3,511
randompersonx said:
I have had the privilege to buy cars from Porsche, and honestly, their updates from the 997.1 to 997.2 (PDK, Direct Fuel Injection), and 997.2 to 991 (a lot...), it's very clear that it is far more than a .0003% improvement. No company is perfect, and Porsche has their flaws too, but these sorts of major "bait and switch" changes (range, seats) simply are not an issue there.
Click to expand...
Yes, I understand, that's why I called them out... and until two months ago, I would defend Audi to the death with their engineering marvels (The fact that VAG could pull off a ~60MPG TDI about 20 years ago, for example). (Non Sequitur: LOL, Tesla can transfer torque between inner and outer wheels on a hard turn just in software, no hardware required, and that's one of the "new" improvements from ICEland). The mass market ones are where I'm pretty sure that Ford, GM, etc have someone who's new job is to hold a cardboard sign at the side of the road due to Tesla's achievements.

randompersonx said:
... but do not consider inefficiency at the power plant (which is likely only 50%). When you factor in the energy required to build these batteries and aluminum chassis, the car simply needs to have great efficiency to justify it's energy cost of production.
Click to expand...
Yes, agree. But what it does permit is as the country (or some other country, whatever) improves... be it to solar, wind, nuclear, whatever... the efficiency carries forward. Whereas, every day, despite my state requiring bi-yearly emissions inspections, I see tons of vehicles belching soot from crappy diesel engines or burning oil from crappy worn-out rings. Tesla isn't perfect, but they ARE doing more than the other guys are... how many of the others are building a 100% solar plant?

randompersonx said:
Instead, I will have to point out the lack of new seats, ask for them to put it in writing that they will fix it
Click to expand...
FWIW, my DS had this paperwork ready and waiting for me. It was in writing, to be installed at no charge when available, and he clearly stated I could also have a refund as well if I prefer.
 
#3,512
Dbitter1 said:
Yes, agree. But what it does permit is as the country (or some other country, whatever) improves... be it to solar, wind, nuclear, whatever... the efficiency carries forward. Whereas, every day, despite my state requiring bi-yearly emissions inspections, I see tons of vehicles belching soot from crappy diesel engines or burning oil from crappy worn-out rings. Tesla isn't perfect, but they ARE doing more than the other guys are... how many of the others are building a 100% solar plant?
Click to expand...

I certainly agree on that as well ... In the USA all the electric utilities seem to be very excited about EV, and most are making efforts to improve their green-ness. In the long run, we vote with our dollars, and if more of our dollars go towards electricity rather than oil, electric companies will have resources to make upgrades. For all of it's flaws, Tesla is making the best EV's on the road now, so it's a good place to vote with your dollars, too. But that doesn't give Tesla a license to abuse their position indefinitely. at 500K cars/year (their goal), customers won't tolerate this sort of mess.

ICE cars will always run on dinosaur juice. Oil is a very valuable resource that cannot be replaced for many tasks, and it's quite wasteful that we are burning all of it for cars (which can run on electricity).

Dbitter1 said:
FWIW, my DS had this paperwork ready and waiting for me. It was in writing, to be installed at no charge when available, and he clearly stated I could also have a refund as well if I prefer.
Click to expand...

I hope it goes as smoothly for me.
 
#3,514
tcampos said:
.82 update:
*snip*
Car at is awesome overall. Very happy EXCEPT for the range
Click to expand...

.82? I ended up with .81 this morning. Shows 226 miles at 90% now, although efficiency does not seem to have improved.

I agree, I think my only gripe is the efficiency.... and that my brakes are squeaking at a complete stop for some reason all of a sudden...
 
#3,515
"All will work out in the end" does not sell cars beyond the circle of enthusiasts.

Bet TSLA said:
Best car ever made, yet this thread is filled with endless whining. People should just take their money elsewhere if they don't like what Tesla is doing. It's a completely discretionary purchase. It's a really fun toy. It's also, like all high tech things, obsolete the day you get it. And the company is pushing so many limits at once that there will always be slip-ups in execution. If they didn't act until they could do so perfectly, you would get the same thing a year later, or never (see all other car companies).
Click to expand...

and customers will do exactly that if this repeats with future cars.
 
#3,517
Rice390 said:
This car lost the "best car ever made" title during my road trip when I had to sleep in a McDonald's parking lot from 3 am to 6 am due to unexpectedly having to hit every supercharging station on the east coast.

Yes. That really happened.
Click to expand...

Wasn't quite that bad for me, but the extra energy usage did add nearly an hour of supercharging to my already long trip yesterday vs my P85...
 
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