Tracking P85D delivery thread

[crazybrit]

Awesome! Congrats! As some have said (and I will reiterate) it isn't any easier now that the production is complete .

- - - Updated - - -

Also... @crazybrit, a fellow new D owner in Edmonton said his DS had scheduled delivery for Dec. 31 and said that due to "logistics issues" getting vehicles up from California his delivery (and likely mine) will be delayed into Jan 5-7 at best.

Fingers are tightly crossed for you buddy!

I had to switch to the ship-to-home option. However I am still wondering if it can catch a truck by the 31st.

 

[Bet TSLA]

No I did not mean there is a clause. The "terms below" dictate how the owner can change the configuration not Tesla. Please read the whole contract if you're going to comment.

I don't see anything indicating that Tesla can't change the configuration at will, so long as they provide an updated Vehicle Configuration. The section I think you are referring to merely says that the price is not subject to change by Tesla. And if they decided to change something that wasn't mentioned in the configuration, like the design of the door handles, I don't think there's any legal complaint you could have. But I'm not a lawyer, so perhaps I'm missing something here.

The range was listed on the order form. The range is listed on the Monroney sticker (which is mentioned in the MVPA, though probably not exactly applicable here). I think Tesla would be hard pressed to convince a judge that information on their Monroney sticker and their order form isn't part of the vehicle configuration.

I quite agree that anything listed on the order form or the Monroney sticker is part of the configuration. But I still object to the notion that tweets and "advertising" are part of any promise.

 

[stevezzzz]

Finally! Some time last night VIN 66654 hitched a lift on a truck headed for Denver; that's a week after it went 'Production Complete'. Too bad I'll be in Seattle the last two days of 2014: was really hoping for an in-service date this year.

 

[EV_Steve]

Finally! Some time last night VIN 66654 hitched a lift on a truck headed for Denver; that's a week after it went 'Production Complete'. Too bad I'll be in Seattle the last two days of 2014: was really hoping for an in-service date this year.

Steve,

According to my DS mine left on a truck for Denver yesterday morning. He is expecting arrival tomorrow if the storm doesn't delay the truck. I'm sorry you won't be in town for the delivery.

 

[wk057]

I don't see anything indicating that Tesla can't change the configuration at will, so long as they provide an updated Vehicle Configuration. The section I think you are referring to merely says that the price is not subject to change by Tesla. And if they decided to change something that wasn't mentioned in the configuration, like the design of the door handles, I don't think there's any legal complaint you could have. But I'm not a lawyer, so perhaps I'm missing something here.
I quite agree that anything listed on the order form or the Monroney sticker is part of the configuration. But I still object to the notion that tweets and "advertising" are part of any promise.

"The Vehicle Configuration may be in the form of a Monroney window sticker." The window sticker is binding. The MVPA is binding. The sticker says 242 miles. It says a higher MPGe on highway than the (P)85. So all other forms of advertising aside, neither of these are accurate or were ever accurate since I took delivery. Aside from range, my MVPA says as a line item, "Tech Package with Autopilot." The autopilot updates are essentially paid for and in the agreement, and are due to me and others. The MVPA also states "Black Next Generation Seats", which are also due to me (back seats) and others.

It is basically black and white that the above is true and really not able to be argued.

Further, in the USA companies can not advertise one thing and sell another. This is the very definition of false advertising. I'm not referring to any "tweets" here. I'm talking about the official Tesla Motors ordering page that showed "285 miles at 65 MPH." That is advertising. That is a claim the company has made and was making at the time of my order, and after ordering I was never informed about this key item being modified.

If they're able to get the range to meet the window sticker's 242 miles, then sure a legal battle would be more difficult. But it doesn't change the fact that this was changed from the original advertising. It also doesn't change the fact that the car as it stands when it was delivered can not meet either of the numbers in the real world.

I have been thinking about this, and it occurred to me that a dyno has four independent rolls, rather than a single road surface. I am thinking that there may be a small synchronization issue between the axles, that can cause motors to fight each other. This will not show up on dyno rolls.

I was actually just wondering this myself and this makes some sense. Since this is the first dual motor AWD electric vehicle ever to be tested for EPA ratings (educated guess here, correct me if I'm wrong) this caveat may not have been taken into account. If that is the case, the EPA numbers need to be corrected and owners compensated accordingly.

 

[Andyw2100]

I have been thinking about this, and it occurred to me that a dyno has four independent rolls, rather than a single road surface. I am thinking that there may be a small synchronization issue between the axles, that can cause motors to fight each other. This will not show up on dyno rolls.

I was actually just wondering this myself and this makes some sense. Since this is the first dual motor AWD electric vehicle ever to be tested for EPA ratings (educated guess here, correct me if I'm wrong) this caveat may not have been taken into account. If that is the case, the EPA numbers need to be corrected and owners compensated accordingly.

If this somehow proved to be the case (and obviously I'm sure we are all hoping it is not) that still wouldn't explain where the original "285 miles at 65 MPH" came from. Are we really concerned that somehow the EPA testing was flawed, and that the original number had been modeled, but never actually achieved?

 

[breser]

I don't see anything indicating that Tesla can't change the configuration at will, so long as they provide an updated Vehicle Configuration. The section I think you are referring to merely says that the price is not subject to change by Tesla. And if they decided to change something that wasn't mentioned in the configuration, like the design of the door handles, I don't think there's any legal complaint you could have. But I'm not a lawyer, so perhaps I'm missing something here.

The phrase "subject to" is a conditional. In this case it means the only way the vehicle configuration can be changed is as specified in the terms below. None of which discuss Tesla changing the vehicle configuration. If the contract doesn't talk about it then whatever the Universal Commercial Code says applies. As far as I'm aware there is nothing in the UCC that gives Tesla the right to make such changes. If it did you could order an Apple laptop from Amazon and they could just decide to send you a Dell and you'd have no recourse. I'm pretty sure of this interpretation of the contract because of reasons that I can't discuss here.

About the door handle example, sure they could make small changes. But, we're not talking about a small design change, we're talking about the vehicle failing to meet the specifications provided. A 25% loss in range is significant.

I quite agree that anything listed on the order form or the Monroney sticker is part of the configuration. But I still object to the notion that tweets and "advertising" are part of any promise.

I don't know why you keep bringing up tweets or advertising. The only range information we have was on the order page and the Monroney sticker. Elon did make statements about efficiency which were reflected in those range numbers on the order form. He did say that a software update would improve the range, suggesting that Tesla realizes that the cars are falling short. So I don't think his comments at the launch or the tweets matter in this case. You can simply point at the window sticker/order page and say that the car doesn't meet those specifications.

 

[dennis]

I wouldn't exactly say the range issue is not a problem around town. For example, at 25 MPG and $2.25/gallow, that's $0.09 per mile. The national average electricity price is about $0.14 per kWh. Also there are efficiency losses in charging, somewhere in the 90% efficient range. For simplicity lets say 95%, which is generous. So, that means the car has to get less than 610 Wh/mi in order to be less expensive on fuel per mile than a 25 MPG ICE vehicle, using national average electricity prices.

My grid power is only $0.09 here, so, that puts the same comparison around 1000 Wh/mi, so not a huge issue just yet...

However, let's look at California, Tesla's home state. Average cost the Dept. of Energy shows is $0.1545 per kWh. Gas average in CA is also $2.65/gal right now. So, our 25 MPG hog costs $0.106/mi. All math done, 651 Wh/mi break even point.

Then look at San Francisco, where the average cost per kWh is $0.213. 472 Wh/mi would be the same cost per mile as a 25 MPG ICE in this case...

All of it is pretty sad when I note my average consumption with my P85 was 320 Wh/mi... nearly half the cost to operate vs. ICE even with falling gas prices on a national average, and a third less where I'm at.

Just another data point, in any case, and some food for thought.

Wasn't comparing performance. Was comparing cost per mile. And I can buy gasoline for the same price 24/7, regardless of on/off peak...

Anyway, moot points yet again.

P85D is not as efficient as claimed. End of discussion.

That is total bullsh*t. To support your viewpoint, you make a detailed argument about the cost per mile of the P85D compared to an ICE, and even use my home state of California. When I refute your argument using my actual electricity cost in California when I charge my Model S, and the cost of operating a comparable ICE car to the P85D, you say they are moot points.

I can see that you have never lost an argument in your entire life. Good for you. But its hard to learn anything when you are always right.

 

[breser]

I was actually just wondering this myself and this makes some sense. Since this is the first dual motor AWD electric vehicle ever to be tested for EPA ratings (educated guess here, correct me if I'm wrong) this caveat may not have been taken into account. If that is the case, the EPA numbers need to be corrected and owners compensated accordingly.

The test procedures discuss AWD and how the dynamo should be setup for such vehicles, though I don't think that's in the EV SAE standard (I remember reading it I just don't remember which bit it was in). But I don't think there's anything in there about synchronization issues between axles because until AWD (on ICE vehicles) was done with a mechanical link to a single engine. I don't think it's possible to have such an issue with a mechanical link or at least if you did you'd have major problems. So it's possible that there was an unanticipated problem with the testing where the test result looks better than real world driving. But I'd also expect that Tesla has many real world miles on cars and should have caught such a thing in testing before putting it in the hands of customers.

 

[crazybrit]

The test procedures discuss AWD and how the dynamo should be setup for such vehicles, though I don't think that's in the EV SAE standard (I remember reading it I just don't remember which bit it was in). But I don't think there's anything in there about synchronization issues between axles because until AWD (on ICE vehicles) was done with a mechanical link to a single engine. I don't think it's possible to have such an issue with a mechanical link or at least if you did you'd have major problems. So it's possible that there was an unanticipated problem with the testing where the test result looks better than real world driving. But I'd also expect that Tesla has many real world miles on cars and should have caught such a thing in testing before putting it in the hands of customers.

There seems to be a lot of variability from car-to-car. I am wondering if slight manufacturing differences cause a large change in range. It could be that the early prototypes did not identify the problem

 

[darthy001]

I don't know why you keep bringing up tweets or advertising. The only range information we have was on the order page. Elon did make statements about efficiency which were reflected in those range numbers on the order form. He did say that a software update would improve the range, suggesting that Tesla realizes that the cars are falling short. So I don't think his comments at the launch or the tweets matter in this case. You can simply point at the window sticker/order page and say that the car doesn't meet those specifications.

Excellent point. If this sticker indeed is a part of the contract in the US then Tesla is in deep trouble if they dont fix this. Because on that sticker they have, without any doubt whatsoever, indicated that highway range for the P85D is _higher_ than even the S85!

So as breser writes we can really just forget about d-events, tweets and whatever. Official documents contain the statements showing a promise of increased range that at the moment has not been delivered. That actually makes me a bit more happy as Tesla simply has to fix this or give customers other options. Especially if they risk fines etc from the EPA in addition the possible lawsuits from the owners. The alternative to not fixing this is not something Tesla can afford to even consider.

Reason this make me happy is that my estimated delivery is still 2months in the future. So there is a good chance its fixed by then. At least Tesla cannot spend a couple of Tesla weeks on this if the EPA lurks in the shadows.

I do feel bad for the owners "stuck" with the missing normal-mode in the meantime though.

A bit more on-topic: woohoo, my car is still in production:biggrin:

 

[wk057]

That is total bullsh*t. To support your viewpoint, you make a detailed argument about the cost per mile of the P85D compared to an ICE, and even use my home state of California. When I refute your argument using my actual electricity cost in California when I charge my Model S, and the cost of operating a comparable ICE car to the P85D, you say they are moot points.

I can see that you have never lost an argument in your entire life. Good for you. But its hard to learn anything when you are always right.

lol. I never said I was comparing to an equally performing car, because IMO there are none. The Model S is in a class of its own as far as performance goes. But I think as far as efficiency goes it is fair to compare it to efficient ICE vehicles, and I didn't even go that far.

25 MPG was the number I used because that is the number that was listed on my P85D's sticker as the "average vehicle" number used for comparison. (Turns out after a second look it actually says 23, though, not that it changes the numbers much.)

I pointed out that your electricity cost takes into account a specific time frame you can utilize it at that price, where when driving an ICE vehicle you have no such restriction or difference in price. A more realistic value for comparison is average the cost per kWh of a 24/7 load.

Anyway, the whole point of the original post was to point out that the efficiency problem is not just nonsense, that it actually does have an impact on operating costs. This isn't "my viewpoint," it is a fact.

As for always being right, I generally don't bother arguing anything unless I'm pretty confident I have ground to stand on with the argument. I don't profess to know everything, and never have. But on this issue, I'm on the front lines and have sufficient knowledge and experience to make valid arguments. Attacking me personally does not change the facts, it just shows that your rebuttals are that much weaker than you would like.

 

[breser]

Excellent point. If this sticker indeed is a part of the contract in the US then Tesla is in deep trouble if they dont fix this. Because on that sticker they have, without any doubt whatsoever, indicated that highway range for the P85D is _higher_ than even the S85!

Let's be clear the MVPA I have for my 85D order (which I posted earlier) says:

If you are purchasing a vehicle from our inventory, the Vehicle Configuration may be in the form of a Monroney window sticker.

I don't think anyone has bought an inventory P85D yet (though I'd guess that'll be soon).

However, the window sticker may still be relevant anyway. It's a disclosure required by law it needs to be accurate.

I want to draw one distinction here. I think there are two separate range issues.

1) The range is less than an S85/P85/P85+. This is already reflected in the window sticker, getting 242 instead of 265. It's not clear if the 242 conflicts with the range at 65 mph (though I don't think it does since the highway MPGe is higher on a P85D) that was provided on the website. I don't think there's a lot of room to complain. The window stickers were on the vehicles, they said 242. If that was a problem the time to deal with that was to decline delivery.

2) The range is less than the 242 listed on the window sticker. This is a whole different ball of wax. If the cars delivered to customers can't match what was on the window sticker then I think buyers have a complaint against Tesla. However, if Tesla resolves this proactively then I don't really think much will come of it.

I don't blame anyone for being disappointed by 1), but I'd be upset if my car has the issue described in 2).

 

[randompersonx]

lol. I never said I was comparing to an equally performing car, because IMO there are none. The Model S is in a class of its own as far as performance goes. But I think as far as efficiency goes it is fair to compare it to efficient ICE vehicles, and I didn't even go that far.

Porsche Panamera Turbo S is an excellent comparison for MPG. The cars are very similar in size, shape, number of doors, hatchback, 0-60 times, quarter mile times, etc. Panamera Turbo S is quicker/faster at the high end, P85D is quicker at the low end.
http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/panamera/panamera-turbo-s/featuresandspecs/
The Panamera Turbo S gets 15MPG City, 24MPG Highway. As a former Panamera owner, I would state that the estimates are very good, and I occasionally did better on the highway than the EPA estimates. The car takes premium, not regular.

It's clear to me that while the range is less than it should be, it's still "cheaper" than the panamera in fuel costs.

 

[darthy001]

@breser oh, ok.. So a bit less positive, but is the combined range number the only relevant one? I would have thought the highway mpge had to be accurate as well!? Otherwise they have no real meaning.

ah well.. Still dont think Tesla can afford not to fix this. So keeping the adjustes happy outlook for the time being.

 

[breser]

@breser oh, ok.. So a bit less positive, but is the combined range number the only relevant one? I would have thought the highway mpge had to be accurate as well!? Otherwise they have no real meaning.

MPGe has no real meaning to begin with but that's a whole different debate. But MPGe is just another way to reflect range. Or conversely range is just another way to reflect efficiency. MPGe is on the window sticker to facilitate comparisons between vehicles (that either aren't BEVs or that have different sized batteries). If you're comparing a P85+ versus a P85D then range is sufficient since they have an identical battery (or at least as far as we know).

But yes MPGe needs to be accurate as well, I'm not sure where you got the impression from my post that it wouldn't.

 

[stevezzzz]

I'm going to make a plea for everyone to honor the thread topic: by my estimate, something like 75% of the posts in this thread have been off-topic recently (please don't tell me it's actually 73%, or 81.6%: I don't care).

This is the "Tracking P85 Delivery" thread, not the "My P85D Doesn't Meet Spec" thread. The latter is a legitimate topic: there are other threads devoted to it. One of them would be much more appropriate for the bulk of the recent discussion, which has become argumentative and repetitive, as well as off-topic.

I understand it's a free country and that you have a right to post whatever you like, more or less; what I'm asking is that you extend a courtesy to those of us who like to be able to find what we're looking for, and to find it where we can reasonably expect it to be found. Thank you for your consideration.


[update]

To keep this post at least partly on-topic: my DS claims that even though my D is on a truck today, bound for the Denver SC, and even though I'm not going to be in Colorado the last two days of 2014 to accept delivery, that there is a way that we "can still have everything count for it [sic] in 2014". I don't see how that's possible, or legitimate in terms of tax law, but I'm waiting for my local delivery team to reach out and explain their reasoning to me.

 

[Bet TSLA]

The sticker says 242 miles. It says a higher MPGe on highway than the (P)85.

Sure does. Nice to see you've backed off of your earlier demands that the range must be better than the P85 or you'll hold your breath or something.

So all other forms of advertising aside, neither of these are accurate or were ever accurate since I took delivery.

Really? I'm not at all sure what any claims of MPG or range mean when applied to the real world. I always see YMMV. It's quite likely that given the test conditions as defined they are exactly accurate. Do you know different?

Aside from range, my MVPA says as a line item, "Tech Package with Autopilot." The autopilot updates are essentially paid for and in the agreement, and are due to me and others.

Sure enough. You have the Autopilot hardware, and the software that exists. Nothing more has been promised. But I know that I and others are expecting more. Since you've gotten what you paid for, I'm sure you'll be happy to eschew any further updates. I encourage you to refuse them. And I know that if Tesla never sends out another software update that you'll be perfectly content because you got what you paid for.

The MVPA also states "Black Next Generation Seats", which are also due to me (back seats) and others.

Yup. I'm sure you'll find that you signed something agreeing that Tesla can give them to you later, or you can get your money back. Or something like that that's fair to everybody. The alternative, which I'm sure you would have preferred, is that they not give you the car until it was complete. Then you would have gotten what you paid for, some time in March. Time of delivery was not guaranteed -- you did not pay for that.

It is basically black and white that the above is true and really not able to be argued.

What is black and white and not able to be argued is that you are bound and determined to be unhappy with your fine car. Tesla has no lack of customers. If I were Tesla I would offer you your money back and never take an order from you again. But I'm sure they're much more patient than I am. Lucky for you. You've got your car and you can gripe about it endlessly.

I'm talking about the official Tesla Motors ordering page that showed "285 miles at 65 MPH." That is advertising. That is a claim the company has made and was making at the time of my order, and after ordering I was never informed about this key item being modified.

And I'm sure that they can back it up with specific repeatable test results. Too bad real world conditions never match them. YMMV.

About the only thing I can agree with you on is that Tesla could have done this better. The big difference is that I'm happy to cut them some slack and I'm pretty sure they'll make me happy in the end. I'm done with this argument. You're just interested in griping.

 

[spentan]

Delivery Update:

P67544 Completed, Delivery scheduled for 31Dec14 at 11AM. OMFG can't wait

 

[403portside]

Sure does. Nice to see you've backed off of your earlier demands that the range must be better than the P85 or you'll hold your breath or something.



Really? I'm not at all sure what any claims of MPG or range mean when applied to the real world. I always see YMMV. It's quite likely that given the test conditions as defined they are exactly accurate. Do you know different?



Sure enough. You have the Autopilot hardware, and the software that exists. Nothing more has been promised. But I know that I and others are expecting more. Since you've gotten what you paid for, I'm sure you'll be happy to eschew any further updates. I encourage you to refuse them. And I know that if Tesla never sends out another software update that you'll be perfectly content because you got what you paid for.



Yup. I'm sure you'll find that you signed something agreeing that Tesla can give them to you later, or you can get your money back. Or something like that that's fair to everybody. The alternative, which I'm sure you would have preferred, is that they not give you the car until it was complete. Then you would have gotten what you paid for, some time in March. Time of delivery was not guaranteed -- you did not pay for that.



What is black and white and not able to be argued is that you are bound and determined to be unhappy with your fine car. Tesla has no lack of customers. If I were Tesla I would offer you your money back and never take an order from you again. But I'm sure they're much more patient than I am. Lucky for you. You've got your car and you can gripe about it endlessly.



And I'm sure that they can back it up with specific repeatable test results. Too bad real world conditions never match them. YMMV.

About the only thing I can agree with you on is that Tesla could have done this better. The big difference is that I'm happy to cut them some slack and I'm pretty sure they'll make me happy in the end. I'm done with this argument. You're just interested in griping.

Let's just have you tell all of us how we should feel about the cars we're buying. We'll all adopt your attitude. Sound good?

BTW, have you taken delivery of your P85D or are you just telling other people (from the sidelines) how they should feel about their purchase?

It takes a lot of nerve for you to tell people how they should feel about what they were advertised, how much slack they should cut Tesla.