UK FSD Discussion

[Leytonstone]

Beavis and Butthead in the front remind me of certain contributors here, sermonising on Tesla's magnificence while their car breezes through stop lights and wanders dementedly into oncoming traffic. It shouldn't be used on the public highway, it's dangerous and it's never going to work.

 

[NewbieT]

I find the occupancy networks interesting. Tesla say they don’t use cm mapping and then they take a load of data from a load of cars and build a virtual…. map. I’m assuming this is just for testing and not for loading into cars?

 

[Bouba]

Can’t understand how anyone would want this rubbish let loose on our streets

https://twitter.com/x/status/1727889381309239731

There did appear to be a low sun ...which does blind the cameras

 

[Leytonstone]

There did appear to be a low sun ...which does blind the cameras

Also the trees and parked cars conspire with the angle of the approach to obscure the stop sign (circled below, on the right). Think of how many Give Way or other signs are obscured or illegible or bent over or graffitied on an average urban drive in this country.

There are deep flaws in a system that uses a $65 camera look through your windscreen at stuff coming at you. It's just amazing this whole "robot car of the future" stupidity has gone on for as long as it has.

 

[Bouba]

Also the trees and parked cars conspire with the angle of the approach to obscure the stop sign (circled below, on the right). Think of how many Give Way or other signs are similarly obscured or illegible or bent over or graffitied on an average urban drive in this country.

View attachment 993873

There are deep flaws in a system that works only by looking through your windscreen with a $65 camera at stuff coming at you. It's just amazing this whole "robot car of the future" stupidity has gone on for as long as it has.

It will work....if....AI is the paradigm shift we all fear it might be

 

[Bouba]

Can I also say in defense of the video..the occupants seem as genuinely surprised as we are (‘what’s wrong with it today?’)...which implies that it normally works reasonably well

 

[Leytonstone]

I dare say that on particular roads in favourable conditions at a certain time of day with a certain level of light, it does a passable job for a cheap, not that powerful in-car computer rivalled by your average games console. If that's everyone's idea of an AI robot car of the future, have at it.

Just let me know when you're on the roads so I can arrange to stay off them

 

[Zilla91]

I was only joking when I posted this in another thread

Your cameras are obviously dirty, or if they’re not, you’ve cleaned them incorrectly. Or you’re driving on the wrong kind of road with the wrong kind of sun.

But….

There did appear to be a low sun ...which does blind the cameras

It’s beyond parody at this point

 

[zoros]

Scary that there are people on here now who actually believe in FSD and can't get their heads round the fundamental issue - "we're not there yet". AI is years behind where it needs to be for FSD and equivalent to work FLAWLESSLY".
One born every minute - I guess.

As for Escooters - in the UK they are banned on public roads AND pavements with a £100 fine AND 6 points on your licence (if you have one!).
We've had (are having) endless trials here and in the EU which shows the system is being abused to the extent that the government has to step in to prevent so many needless injuries.

 

[Roy Batty]

Scary that there are people on here now who actually believe in FSD and can't get their heads round the fundamental issue - "we're not there yet". AI is years behind where it needs to be for FSD and equivalent to work FLAWLESSLY".

I will also add that we need much better signage, in some cases much less given the utter confusion of road furniture at some junctions, some standardisation, I'm looking at you variable speed limit motorway gantry signs, that need improving too.

Plus far better white line painting, all this across the country and given white lines are on B roads around me are often not reinstated when a road is resurfaced we seem to be going backwards.

Outside of cities we are talking decades until we get robotaxis.

 

[Bouba]

I will also add that we need much better signage, in some cases much less given the utter confusion of road furniture at some junctions, some standardisation, I'm looking at you variable speed limit motorway gantry signs, that need improving too.

Plus far better white line painting, all this across the country and given white lines are on B roads around me are often not reinstated when a road is resurfaced we seem to be going backwards.

Outside of cities we are talking decades until we get robotaxis.

On my last visit to England, I was truly shocked at the state of the roads and streets

 

[Roy Batty]

On my last visit to England, I was truly shocked at the state of the roads and streets

They are pretty damned terrible and have been getting worse year on year.

One of the big problems is we're having so much house building around me the roads are getting dug up multiple times for water, sewer, gas and electric upgrades.

Why we haven't shifted utilities to pavements, with decent ducting, where they exist, is beyond me.

Without decent roads autonomy is a really hard ask.

I'm sure we could probably have tests of Waymo, or similar, in one of our cities now, legislation allowing.

 

[MrBadger]

Scary that there are people on here now who actually believe in FSD and can't get their heads round the fundamental issue - "we're not there yet". AI is years behind where it needs to be for FSD and equivalent to work FLAWLESSLY".
One born every minute - I guess.

I suspect many correctly believe that full autonomy starts at Level 3 and that flawless level 5 which some think is what FSD is all about is not a necessary end game needed for the purchase of FSD.

Many, including myself, would be more than happy if Tesla achieved level 3 for divided highways use. And that is achievable if Tesla chose to.

Level 4, where no legal driver is necessary to be in the car, would also be not far behind should level 3 be predictable and reliable which I think it can be.

But I agree, level 5 is outside the capabilities of current hardware based on empirical evidence.

No reason not to have Level 2 hands off/eyes on right now other than Tesla seemingly not heading in that direction.

 

[Leytonstone]

Many, including myself, would be more than happy if Tesla achieved level 3 for divided highways use. And that is achievable if Tesla chose to.

Won't happen, not least because at this level Tesla must assume all liability and of course, they won't and couldn't afford to anyway. Can we take a brief moment to appreciate what others can sell as an option right now:

I mean, Tesla can't even get the rain bit right.

What does this mean for them? What is means is that their half-assed, corner-cutting approach will be laid bare when the likes of MB, VAG, Toyota and so on produce consistently reliable zero accident miles from vehicles which have combined lidar, radar, ultrasonic and cameras, and which know their centimetre-accurate whereabouts courtesy of a GPS sensor on the roof and a centimetre-accurate prior mapping of the road.

The Drive Pilot system won't operate in roadworks because they won't appear on the mapping. the Tesla system will happily stray into such areas and kill a construction worker. It's not going to be pretty, in every sense of that phrase.

 

[Jonnymack74]

uses a $65 camera l

Try 65 pence/cents

 

[MrBadger]

Won't happen, not least because at this level Tesla must assume all liability and of course, they won't and couldn't afford to anyway. Can we take a brief moment to appreciate what others can sell as an option right now:

View attachment 993913

I mean, Tesla can't even get the rain bit right.

What does this mean for them? What is means is that their half-assed, corner-cutting approach will be laid bare when the likes of MB, VAG, Toyota and so on produce consistently reliable zero accident miles from vehicles which have combined lidar, radar, ultrasonic and cameras, and which know their centimetre-accurate whereabouts courtesy of a GPS sensor on the roof and a centimetre-accurate prior mapping of the road.

The Drive Pilot system won't operate in roadworks because they won't appear on the mapping. the Tesla system will happily stray into such areas and kill a construction worker. It's not going to be pretty, in every sense of that phrase.

That shows a complete misunderstanding of what Level 3 is.

Level 3 does not define absolute (financial) legal liability nor does it, or Level 4, define what types of roads, weather, time of day etc etc that autonomy is available.

Whether or not those limitations are acceptable to the purchaser is another matter, but as suggested many times in the past, and agreed by many, Level 3 autonomy for motorway use would be acceptable to many.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

I think the ownership of liability is one of the many things that needs to bottomed out. If a car speeds on level 3.. who is at fault? How do you demonstrate the car was on L3 at the time for something like a speeding ticket? As a driver, I wouldn’t be happy if I was still liable or had a hard time proving it was the car. It’s easy to think in a car accident you could ou the logs, there’s an investigation but that’s not so easy when it’s a letter in the post 10 days later. What about the time when we’ll be able to use our phone when on L3+, how does it get policed? Will the police demand some form of light on the car to say it’s being autonomously driven so they don’t pull people over mistakenly?

Merc have said they’d take some liability but I’m not sure it’s a blanket acceptance, and either way, who do you put on the stand?

The law, policing, insurance, type approval, etc all have a lot to get their heads around on this and they need to evolve as much as the software. The Merc L3 system with a fairly low max speed helps avoid some of these issues, but imagine trundling down the motorway at 50 on our smart motorways with the gantry set to 40 and the cars missed the signs. At some point these things can’t be ignored

So even if a Tesla could happily drive us around without incident, it still wouldn’t be approved until these other issues are resolved

 

[NewbieT]

They are working on it but it’s going to take a while.

https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3506

 

[Leytonstone]

That shows a complete misunderstanding of what Level 3 is.

No, it really doesn't. But nice try.

Level 3 does not define absolute (financial) legal liability nor does it, or Level 4, define what types of roads, weather, time of day etc etc that autonomy is available.

Level 3 also doesn't demand you use lidar, radar, ultrasonic, GPS, road mappings and so on, but guess what! Legacy makers are and Tesla are not. In accepting legal liability, Mercedes-Benz are telling the world they're confident and that anyone disavowing it is not.

So Tesla must follow suit. That is all.

I would note that, once again the proponents of Autopilot are resorting to diversions in an attempt to push this topic into the weeds, away from the real issue: that a lashed together, budget constrained cameras-only system, whose only defining consistency is that it's really bad, is going to end up in the mud.

 

[zoros]

FSD: My concern here is that "he who blinks first......is lost"; In that if the government blinks and decides the time has come to allow fully autonomous driving [and when I say 'fully autonomous' I don't mean this rubbish about following through with your hands (because this requires the same level of attention as a normal non FSD vehicle)]........
the first time or several times someone is killed due categorically to an autonomous vehicle - the sh*t will hit the fan and the government will ban FSD. Law suits will be fying left right and centre.
Look at the way the british government has dealt with "Smart Motorways" - how many innocent men, women and children have died to convince the government that it was a ludicrous idea in the first place.
The man/woman in the street could have worked out the consequences of opening up an emergency breakdown lane to fast moving traffic FFS.
I suspect they will try it on - again - when lobbying by various car manufacturers becomes overpowering and the government caves into FSD prematurely (blink first).

I can see maybe, just maybe - one dedicated lane of a modern motorway will be made available to FSD over a limited distance for a couple/three years "trial" before taking the next step.
This is going to takes YEARS and YEARS! And almost certainly - innocent people are going to die in the process.


18 have died already at Level 2 FSD in 2022/3.

How Many People Have Actually Been Killed By Self-Driving Cars? - SlashGear

As the technology advances and more cars adopt self-driving systems, it's important to note the current rate of accidents associated with autonomous cars.

www.slashgear.com

Fully self-driving cars unlikely before 2035, experts predict

Despite major advancements in self-driving car technology, experts believe it could be over a decade before cars are fully autonomous

www.verdict.co.uk