Update to the Supercharger network policies

[ohmman]

I can't find any example where "lifetime" benefits transfers to a new owner. The closest is Sirius and they take it away from new owners.

So while I think you and I are on the same side of this issue - that Tesla has a defensible position in taking away unlimited Supercharging upon ownership transfer - I do have an example of lifetime service that transfers with hardware. TiVo has always offered a Lifetime (or currently, "All-In") Plan that is tied to the hardware. It guarantees TiVo service, which is provided by the company but represents an external service. It's relatively analogous to the Tesla Supercharger situation.

 

[landis]

Aren't CA M3 customers going to run the numbers and figure out that they should buy a 50MPG hybrid instead, solar or no solar?

Have you ever driven a 50MPG hybrid? There's a value you can assign to not having to subject yourself to that.

I would say this a bit differently...

18 months ago (pre reveal) I bought a used 2012 PriusC as a bridge to the M3 I finally reserved 9 months ago.
Over those months I do in fact average 50 mpg.
The hybrid assisted acceleration from stops isn't bad though there is one grade on my commute that definitely challenges this car.

(The alternative I was considering was a Corolla. I briefly considered a used Volt but it wouldn't make even half of my commute.)
My primary reason was to gain more experience with regeneration braking since I had earlier test driven a Model S.
As a bonus I have also gained some experience in hypermiling techniques, though I almost never subject roadway companions to this.

I've run the numbers on the cost of my 90mi round trip commute back when gas was about $2.25/gal (just now at $2.50)
I am paying about $.11/kWh for renewable (mostly wind) generation and transmission and another $.07/kWh for distribution by PECO.
Assuming 250-333 Wh/mile (three or for miles per kWh) I calculated about 25 kWh per commute. (4 times per week) or about $4.50.
In other words, it was coming out even with electricity cost replacing gasoline cost.

So yes, literally every day I drive the PriusC I am thinking that is one less day to wait for my M3 which will be awesome!
And as someone here on TMC mentioned, every time I fill up (8.5 gal for about $20) I am thinking one less stop at this stinking station.

If the M3 looks exactly like the ones revealed in March I will be more than pleased.

I have already done preliminary planning for trips to my mom in IN and a sister in MT, and both already have adequate SpC coverage.
400kwH is basically one trip per year to visit my aging mom, so I had been hoping for a bit more.If the supercharger rates are close to my calculations I will still be happy and have already started planning to enjoy a number of road trips with my spouse in my/our M3.

TL;DR H**l yeah!

 

[msnow]

So while I think you and I are on the same side of this issue - that Tesla has a defensible position in taking away unlimited Supercharging upon ownership transfer - I do have an example of lifetime service that transfers with hardware. TiVo has always offered a Lifetime (or currently, "All-In") Plan that is tied to the hardware. It guarantees TiVo service, which is provided by the company but represents an external service. It's relatively analogous to the Tesla Supercharger situation.

Well as long as we are moving outside of the automotive biz, the windows on my house and certain appliances had warranties that transferred to me when I bought the house.

 

[NOLA_Mike]

BTW, how will Tesla even know about the private party sale? DMV knows, but how will Tesla know of ownership change?
Will the same sleazy rule apply if the car is gifted to someone, or someone inherits the car?

The easiest way, I would think, would be that in order to use the phone app the car has to be associated with your account.

EDIT: If upon sale the new owner did not contact Tesla and ask that it be transferred then the old owner will continue to have remote control of their car.

 

[ohmman]

Well as long as we are moving outside of the automotive biz, the windows on my house and certain appliances had warranties that transferred to me when I bought the house.

Well, Tesla offers a transferrable warranty, too. I get where you're coming from, but I don't think that's the same thing.

Really, no analogy works well. Mine is flawed because the TiVo service is just for the DVR to download the program guide and recommendations (note that I haven't had a TiVo in 15 years, so this may have changed.) It's still a "service" that is used regularly, but the incremental cost for TiVo is minimal. Without service, however, the TiVo can become useless. This is/was a big part of the revenue model for the company.

With Tesla, the Superchargers aren't a big part of the revenue model. The cars are still useful without unlimited Supercharging. It can be argued they're exactly as useful as they were before, but they incur some a range of additional costs for certain types of use.

For many - dare I say, most - people, it won't be any additional cost. These are your rare road trippers who drive under ~1000 miles on "longer" trips a year. For some of us, it would be a marginal difference. Last year, I drove about 5000 "road trip" miles. At 330Wh/mi, which is what I average on my higher consumption Model X, the Supercharger energy consumed is approximately 1650 kWh. Out of pocket kWh billed would be 1650 - 400 (annual included) = 1250kWh. If Tesla charged an average of $0.25/kWh, a number that most people here would consider very high, that would be about $312.50 last year in Supercharger fees. Considering vehicle depreciation, that number is not extreme. It certainly isn't enough to warrant a much higher value for above-average road trip drivers.

The final category includes the road warriors, apartment/condo dwellers, and taxi services. For the former two, there is definite inherent value in the unlimited option. For the latter, I would argue they shouldn't have the unlimited option available to them. Opinions may vary.

So if any of my analysis above has merit, then the value in unlimited Supercharging hinges purely on the road warriors and apartment dwellers. I don't have data on what percentage of ownership or potential ownership this reflects, but I imagine it's enough to provide a significant bump in value. Whether or not that bump represents something we owners bought when we got the car is subject to personal interpretation.

 

[callmesam]

I promise here to file suit against Tesla if they try and remove Supercharging when I sell my S60. Unlike most/many owner who received Supercharging "included" I paid $2,000 for "free for life" access. Any amateur legal scholars care to wager how the courts will come down?

 

[msnow]

I promise here to file suit against Tesla if they try and remove Supercharging when I sell my S60. Unlike most/many owner who received Supercharging "included" I paid $2,000 for "free for life" access. Any amateur legal scholars care to wager how the courts will come down?

Do you have the exact language that they used when you purchased it? A scanned document or cached link would be useful.

 

[Az_Rael]

I promise here to file suit against Tesla if they try and remove Supercharging when I sell my S60. Unlike most/many owner who received Supercharging "included" I paid $2,000 for "free for life" access. Any amateur legal scholars care to wager how the courts will come down?

I don't know how the courts will come down, but I always thought it was interesting that Tesla charged $2000 for supercharging, and ~$1500 to activate DC fast charging without supercharging.

Makes one wonder what the actual cost of access to the network was.

 

[Az_Rael]

Do you have the exact language that they used when you purchased it? A scanned document or cached link would be useful.

Well, if you buy it NOW for a 60, it does say supercharging at no additional cost:

 

[JRP3]

I promise here to file suit against Tesla if they try and remove Supercharging when I sell my S60.

How would they know until after the sale was completed? After the sale it won't be your 60 any longer so it will be the new owner's issue. Or are you saying if it becomes known that Tesla will do this on every sale then that devalues your car a certain amount before the sale?

 

[msnow]

Well, if you buy it NOW for a 60, it does say supercharging at no additional cost:

View attachment 208043

Right but it doesn't say "free for the life of the vehicle" and when you go to the Supercharging link they cite it says words to the effect "for the life of your Tesla vehicle". I hate that we have to parse this out but absent clear and precise language from Tesla it seems they can charge for Supercharging after the car changes ownership but as @ohmman points out unless the new owner is a road warrior or for hire driver the cost is not that significant.

 

[Jack007]

I think most people are missing the point in this discussion. I don't think they are going to care about 150,000 vehicles that can plug in free at the SC network, when there are MILLIONS of M3s on the road... It's not a big deal and not going to matter. Or at least I hope not, because I'm picking up my 60D this week, just to make sure I can drive for free til I die. I'm sure they will take away my license before I give up my tesla. If they charge around the local price for electricity, it won't be that big of a deal anyway. Happy Charging!

 

[Az_Rael]

Right but it doesn't say "free for the life of the vehicle" and when you go to the Supercharging link they cite it says words to the effect "for the life of your Tesla vehicle". I hate that we have to parse this out but absent clear and precise language from Tesla it seems they can charge for Supercharging after the car changes ownership but as @ohmman points out unless the new owner is a road warrior or for hire driver the cost is not that significant.

I agree, I think Tesla could go either way on this. It will be interesting next year once we find out the details of the program. Hopefully they won't delay too much, since it already looks like CPOs are affected and those buyers will need to know the details of supercharging costs soon.

 

[Jack007]

I think most people are missing the point in this discussion. I don't think they are going to care about 150,000 vehicles that can plug in free at the SC network, when there are MILLIONS of M3s on the road... It's not a big deal and not going to matter. Or at least I hope not, because I'm picking up my 60D this week, just to make sure I can drive for free til I die. I'm sure they will take away my license before I give up my tesla. If they charge around the local price for electricity, it won't be that big of a deal anyway. Happy Charging!

 

[callmesam]

How would they know until after the sale was completed? After the sale it won't be your 60 any longer so it will be the new owner's issue. Or are you saying if it becomes known that Tesla will do this on every sale then that devalues your car a certain amount before the sale?

The policy will likely be announced January 1, 2017. It won't be a surprise when if/when I sell, but i have to "sell" in order to "fix" my damages.

I can't be damaged until I have a loss. And as long as I still have exactly what I bargained for (i.e. Still own my car) I have neither loss nor damage.

 

[bro1999]

I'm really hoping that Tesla has not decided to clarify the whole "will free lifetime SC access transfer to private buyer next year and beyond" question because it may negatively impact Q4 sales. If I was a potential buyer weighing whether to buy a brand new Tesla now to lock in free lifetime access or buy used, if I knew for certain used buyers could receive the free lifetime benefit next year, I wouldn't be in a rush to buy a new/CPO Tesla before this year is over.

 

[Lloyd]

I promise here to file suit against Tesla if they try and remove Supercharging when I sell my S60. Unlike most/many owner who received Supercharging "included" I paid $2,000 for "free for life" access. Any amateur legal scholars care to wager how the courts will come down?

I don't believe that is entirely correct. You paid $2000 for "supercharger hardware" to be enabled. Look at your window sticker. I don't believe you can show anything that you paid $2000 to grant you free for life access. However, I agree that was the interpretation of many at the time.

 

[ohmman]

The policy will likely be announced January 1, 2017. It won't be a surprise when if/when I sell, but i have to "sell" in order to "fix" my damages.

I can't be damaged until I have a loss. And as long as I still have exactly what I bargained for (i.e. Still own my car) I have neither loss nor damage.

There is the possibility that Tesla will offer increased trade-in or buy-back values for these vehicles if it wants to decommission unlimited Supercharging. That would likely please owners in your situation, as you could still get your perceived value, but also would allow Tesla to control the outstanding unlimited fleet. I think that would be the most consumer-friendly way to get at the end result. Whether Tesla agrees is the bigger question.

 

[Sonny Daze]

I promise here to file suit against Tesla if they try and remove Supercharging when I sell my S60. Unlike most/many owner who received Supercharging "included" I paid $2,000 for "free for life" access. Any amateur legal scholars care to wager how the courts will come down?

Hmm... maybe they meant free for the life of your ownership. I don't think it would lower the value of your car because there is nowhere else buyers will be able to go to get one that does have unlimited free charging. If they end it for your car they will likely end it for CPOs.

 

[JRP3]

I don't think they are going to care about 150,000 vehicles that can plug in free at the SC network, when there are MILLIONS of M3s on the road

In fact they do seem to care if they are disabling free SC access on CPO vehicles, or more accurately converting it to the 400kWh/year limit. We don't yet know if they intend to do the same with private sales.