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[UPDATED] 2 die in Tesla crash - NHTSA reports driver seat occupied
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Sure there are defensive Tesla fans, but there are also contrarian Tesla critics who are quite active. In between, there are very many members who are interested in reality from their own perspectives. I'm referring specifically to TMC as that's where I've found the highest quality of discussion. YouTube has a key role in its media-rich format, but its Comment section isn't set up for organized and thoughtful discussion. Reddit is probably super-active but I just can't appreciate or stick with it the same way as with these forums.
This also a thinly-veiled element of disdain in the article that suggests the official investigation(s) should supersede all of our discussion, but this completely ignores the core problems:
Finally, I'd just say that the only parts of your (S4WRXTTCS) comment that I slightly differ with are the absolutist phrases e.g. "couldn't be" or "simply wasn't possible". In context, I do see that you already disclaimed the certainty and you're fact-driven - but those who (like the author) want to denegrate this discussion, will indeed pluck those out of context and attack you for it. While leaving out the observation that the Constable's own "100% certainty" statement, given in the fog of the story's early hours, was heavily reported and will never be properly amended in the public's perception.
I strongly agree with the main spirit of what you wrote here, and to me it's apparent the author doesn't understand the Tesla online community as deeply as he thinks he does.
Sure there are defensive Tesla fans, but there are also contrarian Tesla critics who are quite active. In between, there are very many members who are interested in reality from their own perspectives. I'm referring specifically to TMC as that's where I've found the highest quality of discussion. YouTube has a key role in its media-rich format, but its Comment section isn't set up for organized and thoughtful discussion. Reddit is probably super-active but I just can't appreciate or stick with it the same way as with these forums.
This also a thinly-veiled element of disdain in the article that suggests the official investigation(s) should supersede all of our discussion, but this completely ignores the core problems:
- All the national attention, including this author's blog, is fueled by speculative, poorly-vetted and sensationalist news coverage. The discussion here, while also necessarily speculative, is far more informed and far less of a circularly-sourced echo chamber.
- Certainly the official investigators will have authority and evidence/witness access that we don't have. But the results will be long in coming, long after the short-term sensationalized misconceptions have made their mark, and BTW are not assured of being bias-free. Also note that nearly everyone here acknowledges, I think more honestly than the first Constable press interview, that there are significant gaps and inconsistencies in the information we have.
Finally, I'd just say that the only parts of your (S4WRXTTCS) comment that I slightly differ with are the absolutist phrases e.g. "couldn't be" or "simply wasn't possible". In context, I do see that you already disclaimed the certainty and you're fact-driven - but those who (like the author) want to denegrate this discussion, will indeed pluck those out of context and attack you for it. While leaving out the observation that the Constable's own "100% certainty" statement, given in the fog of the story's early hours, was heavily reported and will never be properly amended in the public's perception.
I stand corrected. Nevertheless still did not see police blame AP/FSD. Maybe my brain works differently but I have personally seen people do some crazy stuff in cars (non Tesla) where they were somehow controlling the car but not in driver seat. Either way will be interesting to see what their investigation conclusions will be
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Not correct - as has been shown above.
Even if he had just said "no one was in driver seat driving at time of impact" - its still a conclusion that needs to be arrived at after the investigation. He can only state that no one was in the driver's seat when they arrived at the scene / could see inside the car after the blaze.
Its best to think of Herman as a politician, rather than a professional policeman.
gnuarm
Model X 100 with 72 amp chargers
Oh, yeah, like Musk can be muzzled. If the SEC couldn't do it I don't think the NHTSA will do any better.
gnuarm
Model X 100 with 72 amp chargers
I've never had it engage without lines. I think what Musk said was it would not engage without the lines showing on the screen which is absolutely true. I have had the autopilot engaged, run onto a stretch of road without lines and the autopilot continued to work for miles. So it's not like painted lines are required for autopilot to work.
VaxAce
Member
hey guys the car didnt have autopilot as confirmed by Tesla - and - the driver was ejected. Lots of what you are hearing is fake news. He was driving very fast is all.
Your the first person who has said he was ejected. Source or ****
gnuarm
Model X 100 with 72 amp chargers
I tested this today and I was able to engage autopilot without weight on the seat. So #2 is dead. The seatbelt is irrelevant. You can buckle that without it being around a person.
So there is not a bunch of insane replies, I was in the driver's seat, but I lifted all my weight off the seat only having weight on the floor and the consol. I used my left hand to activate the autopilot and it was very happy. It was very unhappy as soon as I unbuckled the seat belt. I think I had to shake the wheel to cause autopilot to release before it would stop squawking. Fastening the seatbelt and letting it know my hand was on the wheel was not enough.
Why the need to point out he is a republican and drives a truck? Are you insinuating that republicans are somehow anti Tesla? Or that because he drives a truck it somehow makes him less informed? What an utterly false stereotypical statement.
I don’t think this will remain a mystery for long. At least one of those multi-million dollar homes likely had security cameras or a ring doorbell. It’s not gonna take much to get an idea of who was where. Investigators will also be talking to neighbors and co-workers. One thing we know about Tesla hobbyists - they love to talk about all the neat things they can do with their fancy toys.
gnuarm
Model X 100 with 72 amp chargers
I don't believe that is correct. Musk said the car didn't have FSD. He also said autopilot was not engaged at time of impact. Was autopilot engaged in the seconds before the impact? I don't consider Tesla to be an impartial witness. They have said about other accidents that the driver's hands were not detected on the steering wheel for X seconds before impact. We all know what that means... pretty much nothing since hands on the wheel are often not detected even though they are there and the driver is paying attention. In fact, I've had the car gripe at me about not having my hands on the wheel because I was focused on something on the road ahead and not paying attention to the whiney dashboard.
Tesla makes very needy cars.
It always amazes me how people can make a quick judgement, provide no evidence to support it, and then the media just rolls with it and ignores all evidence to the contrary. I'm speaking of the people who made the claim that they were sure there was no one in the driver's seat at the time of the crash and the media; not people here. Short of some ironclad evidence we may not be aware of... like maybe the driver's dentures being embedded in the BACK of one of the front seats from impact, I ask you, which of these would be more likely given the circumstances?
1: Owner takes someone on a test drive, decides to show off acceleration, starts in the cul-de-sac, and performs something akin to a 0-60 run, then loses control when he can't make the bend in the road. After striking the tree (one firefighter even said the car was wedged between two trees), the driver's door won't open so the driver checks other doors and ends up in the back seat trying to get out a back door before being overcome with smoke and/or fire.
2: Owner wants to show off autopilot so he starts at the end of the cul-de-sac and guns the throttle to get the car up to excessive speed within 300 feet. Since a Model S should be able to negotiate that curve at 50 MPH, let's say the minimum here is 60 MPH. Assuming a constant acceleration 0-60, getting to 60 by 300 ft takes 6.8 seconds. Let's say 7 seconds to be generous. So the driver guns the throttle, sets AP (or tries to), and then DIVES through the gap between the two front seats to get into the back within 7 seconds (with maybe 1.5 more seconds from that point to reach the tree). Then the car crashes into a tree with the driver in the back.
Mike
1: Owner takes someone on a test drive, decides to show off acceleration, starts in the cul-de-sac, and performs something akin to a 0-60 run, then loses control when he can't make the bend in the road. After striking the tree (one firefighter even said the car was wedged between two trees), the driver's door won't open so the driver checks other doors and ends up in the back seat trying to get out a back door before being overcome with smoke and/or fire.
2: Owner wants to show off autopilot so he starts at the end of the cul-de-sac and guns the throttle to get the car up to excessive speed within 300 feet. Since a Model S should be able to negotiate that curve at 50 MPH, let's say the minimum here is 60 MPH. Assuming a constant acceleration 0-60, getting to 60 by 300 ft takes 6.8 seconds. Let's say 7 seconds to be generous. So the driver guns the throttle, sets AP (or tries to), and then DIVES through the gap between the two front seats to get into the back within 7 seconds (with maybe 1.5 more seconds from that point to reach the tree). Then the car crashes into a tree with the driver in the back.
Mike
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I gave the full quote from the fire chief, so I didn't have to give my own interpretation (as the police did and got things wrong). But if you insist, they were only applying "small" amounts of water to keep the battery cool due to it being a crime scene, making it so they couldn't move or disassemble the car, and they didn't want it reigniting. The implication being if there were no occupants, even this process would have taken a lot less time (as they could disassembly the wreckage or move it somewhere safe where reignition wouldn't be an issue).
It wasn't on fire however during this process, as the police said and the media all reported. The fire was put out in minutes. The fire chief wouldn't have spoken out if they thought the police's statement was accurate and wasn't misleading.
I think that some real professional guys are quietly doing normal investigation, and Mr. Tesla-Drives-Itself Herman is just using his chance to get more publicity, the media is ecstatic for anything Tesla and publishes whatever they can get (including Vice publishing this forum) adding extra spin for extra clicks. Behold! Tesla is possessed by demons and kills people without a driver!
Just to clarify - you have basic Autopilot, not Enhanced Autopilot or the FSD feature?
All of the following have different levels of what they will allow:
- ye olde MobileEye AP1 that I don't think anyone is discussing here
- basic Autopilot that has been included for a few years
- the Enhanced Autopilot that used to be sold separately from FSD a few years back
- Either of basic AP or EAP + the FSD feature - running on the standard Tesla software distributed to all (99+%) of Tesla cars
- (the beta FSD that is only in the hands of a few hundred or thousand people)
What Elon said was that "basic Autopilot" will not turn on without lines. Basic Autopilot only does TACC and lane guiding on well marked highways. If you have FSD (or an older car with the EAP that used to be sold as a line item separate from FSD) then it does more, including potentially engaging without lines.
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