Updated - Interior Lighting

[pete8314]

@jkirkebo:
Strange, I have been to a Volve dealership just last week to get some more info on the C30 Electric, and none of the cars in the showroom had fixed headrests .

I don't think you can move Volvo's headrests up and down as you can in most cars, but, regardless, you won't find a race seat that has adjustable headrests, so I suspect the fact that the Model S is fixed does not detract from the safety.

I agree with a lot of what's being said, but I'm hopeful that most of this is just a PR/communications issue with Tesla. They are, in some ways, very open, and in other ways really quite bad at communicating. I was enjoying the weekly updates from George B during the run up to the sales 'launch', but on reflection it turns out that really was just a PR show, there's been no substantial production (or, at least, distribution) since. It would be nice to have more openess about exactly how the production process is going, what's good, what's bad....most, if not all the people on here are very happy to assist and provide an opinion. As an example, I didn't notice any comments that having Elon's car in the mix for the first Get Amp'd tour was weird, yet of course, it was. They were short of finished cars. But at the time we were all still high on the launch event, so didn't really think to question it. I think the subsequent lack of interesting/meaningful news from Tesla has given some of us time to think more rationally. The problem is, for Tesla, they have stockholders to worry about, so the truth is always tempered with abiguity if it's not entirely good news.

We do all seem to be guilty of trying to compare the Model S against the best of everything. There is no single, perfect car. I think most agree that the drive-train is up there with the very best of them, certainly, in some case, cars that are significantly more expensive than the Model S. Other elements, such as the internal features, are lower down the list, in some cases failing to compete with something that costs 4x less. But the real measure is where it ends up overall, compared to all cars, from the $20k Honda to the $100k M5. The Model S has many features that are unique to it. Some people will place value on those, others won't care until the mainstream manufacturers suddenly start installing similar features. A lot of feaures, really smart ones, can be designed in software and rolled out to all Model S's. These really are early days. Honestly, I've been all over the Audi & Merc sites spec'ing cars, trying to justify in my head that the Model S, with all it's cool features, but it's lack of some other features, is still a wise investment. At this point I'm not sure, but I do think we need to cut Tesla some slack, and give them the benefit of the doubt for another month or so. And remember, when was the last time Audi or BMW asked for opinions on their design? There's pros & cons to a small car company, but we all knew that going in.

 

[Norbert]

It's the drivetrain, the 17" screen, the tech package, the interior materials (the wood/CF trim, leather, Alcantara, microfiber cloth), standard 19" wheels or 21" wheels, air suspension, interior/exterior styling. This is definitely not stuff you will find in your typical $20k car and some of this stuff might not even be in other premium sedans.

In addition to those things, the driving experience. So far I always (twice) rode as passenger, but I can say it was easily the best, and most comfortable, driving experience I remember. And while I never owned a car as expensive myself, I did ride in luxury cars as well. I'm not talking about acceleration here, or the ability to go fast through curves, but simply a very comfortable feeling while driving, as a result of the smooth delivery of power, the absence of body roll and nervous engine noises, and the great suspension which isn't too soft either. That comfortable feeling makes it premium.

 

[dsm363]

We do all seem to be guilty of trying to compare the Model S against the best of everything. There is no single, perfect car. I think most agree that the drive-train is up there with the very best of them, certainly, in some case, cars that are significantly more expensive than the Model S. Other elements, such as the internal features, are lower down the list, in some cases failing to compete with something that costs 4x less. But the real measure is where it ends up overall, compared to all cars, from the $20k Honda to the $100k M5. The Model S has many features that are unique to it. Some people will place value on those, others won't care until the mainstream manufacturers suddenly start installing similar features. A lot of feaures, really smart ones, can be designed in software and rolled out to all Model S's. These really are early days. Honestly, I've been all over the Audi & Merc sites spec'ing cars, trying to justify in my head that the Model S, with all it's cool features, but it's lack of some other features, is still a wise investment. At this point I'm not sure, but I do think we need to cut Tesla some slack, and give them the benefit of the doubt for another month or so. And remember, when was the last time Audi or BMW asked for opinions on their design? There's pros & cons to a small car company, but we all knew that going in.

Well said. I've said this before but the main thing I'll be telling people here in Texas is that during the summer I can cool my car down with my iPhone from inside before I even step one foot outside to get into the car. That is a huge selling point to me as much as remote heating will be to people up North. There are traditional ICEs with remote starting but none that come from that factory that I can think of and none that you can start in the garage with the door closed due to the exhaust of course. No car is perfect and the Model S obviously has a way to go on convenience features and some of the higher tech gadgets like lane departure and ACC but think it has other unique features and an amazing powertrain that partially offset these deficiencies for me at least.

 

[jomo25]

That's what's somewhat frustrating. There are such 'highs' and 'lows'. I.e. autostarting vehicle (no key/pushbutton, just sit and go) and the pre-cooling. But then there's no vanity lights and very, very little storage space.

BTW, the Volt can pre-cool/heat as well via iPhone/web.

 

[brianman]

It's not the particular elements being deleted from the Specs page, but (a) the fact of change this far into the process and (b) the direction of the change. I had thought that Tesla was being responsive towards expressed concerns that the rear seat was missing important amenities, hence the new rear "opportunity console." Whatever one might think about the particular design, it showed an acknowledgment of the need put a little more "premium" in this premium sedan. The (apparent) removal of the rear LEDs and lit vanity mirror are going in the opposite direction.

btw, while I agree with the general concern about glare from rear-seat lights at night, the pin-point lights in our BMW are very focused and don't create any issues for the driver.

It reminds me of the pano roof bar. One of the going theories was that the bar got bigger because of the shades. Another theory (or was it in the email, I forget...) was that the rear lights are removed for headroom.

Well, suppose I don't need the sunshade and I don't care about the headroom. Shouldn't I get to keep a thin bar and the rear lights?

Part of the concern is of a pattern of behavior of bad changes to fix problem X, when not all customers have problem X.

 

[dsm363]

Also may be part of the problem of letting customers see the car early and provide feedback. There must be positives and negatives to doing what they did.

 

[Norbert]

Headroom, especially rear headroom, has been a frequently voiced concern, though. Perhaps they were able to improve it, but without having enough time get third-party-supply for different rear lights. Even if the info we have is correct, it is surely not the full story. As a tall person, I was often annoyed by the thickness of visors. However I guess mirrors could be quite thin, and the light(s) could be embedded in the crossbar, pointing diagonally downwards. It would indeed be nice to hear more from Tesla about the rationale of those two decisions and whether they are still working on finding different solutions, or what else the situation might be. Maybe they received information that rarely anyone actually uses those lights more than twice a year, and those who do, have alternatives, whereas finding alternatives for lack of headroom is more difficult.

 

[Super Gizmo]

It reminds me of the pano roof bar. One of the going theories was that the bar got bigger because of the shades. Another theory (or was it in the email, I forget...) was that the rear lights are removed for headroom.

Well, suppose I don't need the sunshade and I don't care about the headroom. Shouldn't I get to keep a thin bar and the rear lights?

Part of the concern is of a pattern of behavior of bad changes to fix problem X, when not all customers have problem X.

I totally agree with you. Maybe they are trying to skimp and save money wherever they can. They could if they wanted to, make the lights and lighted vanity mirrors etc. optional like the $250 Parcel Shelf which is standard in almost all inexpensive hatchbacks like Prius etc. I would rather have lighted vanity mirror as an option rather than - No it is not available at any price. Take the car as it is or take a hike because we have thousands waiting in line.

Tesla must recognize the fact that for even the first enthusiastic early adopters, once the initial euphoria of owning a unique new EV wears off and they start missing the basic things which are available in almost all other cars, it will result in low Customer Satisfaction Index (CSI) in surveys by companies like J. D. Powers and others. Future purchasers will pay attention to where the CSI is for a new manufacturer like Tesla when they read the newspapers and magazines etc. Especially when it comes to the interior of a car costing around a Hundred Grand.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I totally agree with you. Maybe they are trying to skimp and save money wherever they can. They could if they wanted to, make the lights and lighted vanity mirrors etc. optional like the $250 Parcel Shelf which is standard in almost all inexpensive hatchbacks like Prius etc. I would rather have lighted vanity mirror as an option rather than - No it is not available at any price. Take the car as it is or take a hike because we have thousands waiting in line.

That was my initial theory too, but a couple of LED lights can't save you much money (the console maybe). There has to be another more probable reason.

 

[jimbakker666]

I fell pretty awful starting this thread. There are so many rumors and so much unsubstantiated speculation in these forums. I was just trying to put some rumors to rest by contacting a definitive source at Tesla an posting his response. I did not realize that his response would set off so many negative comments. My sincere apology for stimulating negativity. Remember, we do not know yet whether there are still [non-illuminated] mirrors on the sun visors so don't assume they have disappeared just because the LED's did. I'll post my rep's response about that too when he gets back to me.

I don't think you're stimulating negativity, I think you're stimulating honesty. Tesla cannot improve their game if everyone wears blinders and shoos bad things away. If this is a non-issue, it will resolve itself when the answer comes out from Tesla. If it is an issue, Tesla will see the discussion and act (or not act) accordingly.

Frankly, the reason threads like this crop up is because Tesla doesn't give much info to reservation holders, potential reservation holders and shareholders, and when they do it gets the spin treatment.

So at least in my book, you're presenting a valid discussion topic that will ultimately aid existing and potential buyers.

 

[dsm363]

Tesla gives more information than others, not less and that's the problem. People pick every statement apart. Tesla could easily say no information other than what comes out in press releases or what is on the website. Show me the hundred of threads on the M5 forum about the new model, the console, iDrive...etc over 3 years before it was released. The problem is the message is not well coordinated and production seems to be a moving target. I don't think it's spin or that Tesla lied about the price, range or some feature as some said last year after the specs were released. They've certainly made mistakes but I don't think they are malicious.

 

[efusco]

I don't think you're stimulating negativity, I think you're stimulating honesty. Tesla cannot improve their game if everyone wears blinders and shoos bad things away. If this is a non-issue, it will resolve itself when the answer comes out from Tesla. If it is an issue, Tesla will see the discussion and act (or not act) accordingly.

Frankly, the reason threads like this crop up is because Tesla doesn't give much info to reservation holders, potential reservation holders and shareholders, and when they do it gets the spin treatment.

So at least in my book, you're presenting a valid discussion topic that will ultimately aid existing and potential buyers.

I agree with this. I'm not cancelling my order or anything, but there's no doubt that this adds an edge of concern/disappointment for me. Lighted vanity mirrors are a basic element on any car, cheap, easy, and expected. to not include just seems an unnecessary oversight or slight depending upon whether it was intentional unintentional. ANYONE who has been involved with cars ever knows that cup holders are of great importance to 99% of car buyers. Some cars advertise their vehicles by the number, type and size of cup holders. This is a car designed for families, and yet no cup holders for the back seat passengers?? How on earth can the interior design team thinks that that is acceptable?? It just isn't and we need to let Tesla know that we do not consider it acceptable no matter their desire for simple elegance or whatever they want to call it. I certainly hope that some sort of solution is devised that doesn't look slapped on...and that it is provided for free.

 

[Robert.Boston]

Headroom, especially rear headroom, has been a frequently voiced concern, though. Perhaps they were able to improve it, but without having enough time get third-party-supply for different rear lights. Even if the info we have is correct, it is surely not the full story. As a tall person, I was often annoyed by the thickness of visors. However I guess mirrors could be quite thin, and the light(s) could be embedded in the crossbar, pointing diagonally downwards. It would indeed be nice to hear more from Tesla about the rationale of those two decisions and whether they are still working on finding different solutions, or what else the situation might be. Maybe they received information that rarely anyone actually uses those lights more than twice a year, and those who do, have alternatives, whereas finding alternatives for lack of headroom is more difficult.

Rear-seat lights could be put in the C-column, aimed appropriately. No headroom issue at all.

 

[Norbert]

Rear-seat lights could be put in the C-column, aimed appropriately. No headroom issue at all.

Yes, or even on the doors (which must have electric wiring anyway). My guess is that perhaps they didn't have the time (yet) to implement that and coordinate it with the start of production, or something like that. I'd be curious to know. Or maybe that's what they are working on right now. Though it might be too confusing to inform us about all the back and forth that is currently going on as they go through finishing those 2% of items.

 

[Charged_Up]

It seems to me they designed this with a sports/performance sedan mentality in mind and didn't put much thought into the wants of larger families. I'd think they're getting the message since they read this forum and are working on correcting the situation. This may not help the early adopters/first 10,000 or so people but should result in a better car down the road. Tesla seems to listen to customers more than most companies. Again, how many car companies can you name that let their customers see a car being developed over time and had them give feedback in public during that time? This doesn't take away from the fact that it would have been better to get this right the first time but as we've seen, one person's must have (vanity mirror lights) is another person's un-necessary item (active cruise control) and some people demand it all at this price point.

I think you are also dealing in some cases where people made a reservation nearly three years ago on the promise of a BMW / merc competitor. As a Mercedes owner whose been in plenty of beemers, I believe they got the outside and ride right in a big way- but they have had a couple of real interior fails - console/storage, cup holders (which few get right, but they should have given the clean sheet approach, the illumination- maybe,etc. will I not buy the car because of these things? Of course not. But tesla has set a high standard and deserves to be held to account- especially at the price. You want to miss on some major items at 30-40 grand, you'll have plenty of company. At 100k, there's less room for disappointment

 

[dtich]

i know we don't 'need' another +1 on this thread, but i have to say.. +1. these are both big mistakes and tesla's decisions at this point should be moving toward smarter rather than the other way. pulling the lights out to make headroom and visibility may seem a smart tradeoff to them, but i think this is really stupid. it's like a button on a shirt that is slightly misaligned so your shirt wrinkles a little.. the solution isn't to remove the button.... wacky analogy i know! lol...

at any rate. yes. bad decisions, ones i hope they revisit tomorrow.

 

[dsm363]

I agree.

Material quality is one thing but design choices are another. With the battery costs they probably have less room to work with in sourcing materials for being such a small manufacturer but that doesn't cover the design choices with leaving out cup holders...etc. It's all guesses on our part since none of us were at those design meetings. Tesla did set a high standard but must have not felt that cup holders and other features that are standard in cheaper cars were part of the equation and are probably now rethinking that decision. We should know soon enough when the real first production car is delivered.

 

[contaygious]

Again, if the reason was a quick fix for better vision I much appreciate it! Now if they can get some more in the rear....

I understand they could have found a thinner solution with LED lighting or something, but are probably short on time.

 

[AustinPowers]

I don't think you can move Volvo's headrests up and down as you can in most cars, but, regardless, you won't find a race seat that has adjustable headrests, so I suspect the fact that the Model S is fixed does not detract from the safety.

Then again you don't wear a safety helmet + HANS device (which afaik are both mandatory safety items in most if not all car racing series nowadays) in your normal car either, do you?

<end: Off-topic remark>

 

[Designtime]

Tesla might communicate more than other companies, but I think that is because they are making it up as they go. We pre-0rdered a Mercedes Clk before they were released. We were on the list 18 months before getting the car and got little communication before that but it didn't matter because at the end of the 18 months we got exactly the car we thought we were getting. When I first got on these forums I would read all the time how Tesla under-promised and over-delivered. I have seen no evidence of that in the 1.25 years I have been a reservation holder.

So far we are still in the "buy" mode, but just barely.